Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

[Mr E]

Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

Good to see you here Matthew! Always with great questions. --and great questions are often offensive to some people that don't have great answers. I call it a fragile faith that cannot withstand honest questions and cannot be challenged without upsetting 'the faithful.' When folks lash out at you for simply asking, you know you hit a nerve that's close to the surface and not a deep-seated faith that cannot be disturbed by such questioning.

I believe there is greater value in questions that cannot be answered-- that require us to seek and search and reason through, than thinking we have answers that cannot be questioned. Blind faith is the faith of fools and founded on foolishness that must never be questioned-- like that Emperor that had no clothes. That great passage in Hebrews describes something different entirely-

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

It's not blind. It's understanding. Understanding that what is seen was not made of visible things, but from things unseen. The distinction is important. All those commended for their faith were not 'the unquestioning kind.' Rather they struggled with the big questions like the one you are asking here. The nature of God. Who He is. What He is like. They all would have been considered as 'non-conforming' believers in one way or another. For this I commend you for 'daring' to ask the question despite the eggshells that often surround those who despise such questions.

 

[Waiting on him]

The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

The highest that year was Joseph Ciaphas.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus takes away all of our sin, including the sin nature; otherwise we couldn't partake of the divine nature.

We are able to partake now of what we have in part, but at the Day of Christ will with absolute certainty have in full. We are not fully rid of the "old man," as Paul calls it and you pointed out. This is why we are exhorted to "put off (the) old self, which belongs to (our) former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and... be renewed in the spirit of (our) minds, and... put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" (Paul, Ephesians 4:22-24), and to "lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and... run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (possibly also Paul, Hebrews 12:1-2). Peter exhorts us to the same thing in 2 Peter 1, as you pointed out.

Your question is then why do Christians sin? They don't know their own responsibility, and for some reason have taken into themselves a very apathetic view of sin from very bad teachers who will receive a stricter judgment...

Some underestimate the gravity of sin, certainly, and there can be apathy. But again, we have not completely escaped our old selves. Our sinful nature is still with us to some degree, and thus we still sin. This is what Paul even of himself ~ and thus is true of all of us ~ in Romans 7. But one great Day it will no longer be so.

Jesus was born with the same nature as we Christians have IF we have been born again of God.

Jesus always had the very nature that we will have when we are glorified. Remember the words of His prayer: "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed" (John 17:5). But He took on the same nature that we have had from birth at His birth ~ as Paul says, "Christ Jesus... though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men (and was) in human form" (Philippians 2:5-8)

You still don't understand that all Mary did was give him a human nature...

Oh, I well understand that... But you don't seem to understand the what He had even long before (and long after) that... See above.

...not all Christians are born again.

If they are not born again, they're... not Christians. They might be at some point, though, if they are born again...

Those who struggle with sin have not been born again.

<chuckles...> See above. When one is born again and becomes a Christian, that is actually when the struggle against sin begins.

...Caused the human nature from Mary to be as Adam's was upon creation before he sinned and it became corrupt.

Hm. Again (from above):

Jesus always had the very nature that we will have when we are glorified. Remember the words of His prayer: "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed" (John 17:5). But He took on the same nature that we have had from birth at His birth ~ as Paul says, "Christ Jesus... though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men (and was) in human form" (Philippians 2:5-8)See above.

This gave Him free will, and does the same for us. That free will is why we need to "keep ourselves" and to "purify ourselves."

1stCenturyLady, we all have free will, for sure. Nobody denies that. But our wills really are beside the point of anything we're discussing here, except that we have a responsibility to avoid sin and to glorify God, and that we should, as Paul says in Philippians 4, think about whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, excellent, and worthy of praise, and that we should practice what we have learned and received and heard and seen in him (because it is all really from God, of course). If we do, then the God of peace will be with us.

...our becoming holy is nothing we have done; it is all Christ. He made us slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:6-7; Romans 6:15-16.

Right. Agreed. Now, look again at what you just said here, particularly the word "becoming." It is not yet "became." But it will be. And we can and should live as if it is now. :; THIS is how we are partakers, even in this life.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

True, so why dont you and your Spirit speak to the true nature of Christ?
I'm all ears.

Again: "You make this statement without the scriptures. You must know them by heart, so I'm not going to hunt for them through 19 pages..."

 

[Mr E]

.
FAQ: From whence did baby Jesus obtain a Y chromosome for his male
gender?

REPLY: In the beginning, Eve's entire body was constructed with material
taken from Adam's body.

Seeing as how Eve is the mother of all women, then any material taken from
Mary's body to construct a Y chromosome for baby Jesus would be owed to
Eve's body.

The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken
from Mary's body would not be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but
would be 100% natural, and easily traceable all the way back to Eve, and
from thence to the very dust that was used to construct Adam's body.

I can't prove any of this of course, but nevertheless I sincerely believe that
what I suggest herein actually took place when the power of the Most High
overshadowed Jesus' mom per Luke 1:35; and if my suggestion is true, then
little Jesus was thoroughly a Jew from top to bottom-- biologically
descended, as all other Jews, from the Man that God created in the book of
Genesis.

• Heb 2:17 . . He had to be made like his brethren in every way
_

Since you seem to have an interest- a book I can recommend on the subject is by S. Joshua Swamidass- The Genealogical Adam and Eve (The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We are able to partake now of what we have in part, but at the Day of Christ will with absolute certainty have in full. We are not fully rid of the "old man," as Paul calls it and you pointed out. This is why we are exhorted to "put off (the) old self, which belongs to (our) former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and... be renewed in the spirit of (our) minds, and... put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" (Paul, Ephesians 4:22-24), and to "lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and... run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" (possibly also Paul, Hebrews 12:1-2). Peter exhorts us to the same thing in 2 Peter 1, as you pointed out.

We still have free will.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18.

PS, what form of doctrine are you believing? Paul had to battle many false teachers and their victims. Are you one of the casualties? Those are the Christians Paul was speaking to.

Satan doesn't care if you believe in Jesus to the extent he does himself; he just cares by false doctrines in your mind that you don't know the power of the Spirit, and you don't reckon yourself dead to sin. Then you'll never keep yourself pure. 1 John 5:18; 1 John 3:3 Nor will you grow in the Spirit to maturity and be perfect; 2 Peter 1:5-11

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

For those who insist Jesus , Salvations Messiah, Immanuel ''God with us'', was born with a sinful nature:
If that were true he would have to die to save himself.
Before becoming in bloody crucified sacrifice what 1 Peter 1:19 describes as,the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

With a sinful nature Jesus would have to save himself before he was a noble unblemished sacrifice for others.
A sinner cannot take the sins of the world upon himself and put those sins under his precious corrupt by sin nature blood.

 

[PinSeeker]

We still have free will.

Of course we do. But that's totally beside the point.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18.

PS, what form of doctrine are you believing? Paul had to battle many false teachers and their victims. Are you one of the casualties?

LOL! Do you think, 1stCenturyLady, that you don't sin anymore? That, yes, even though we have become slaves of righteous now, that we no longer sin, and therefore have nothing to confess, and ask forgiveness, and repent of? Surely you would agree that Paul is also saying that he himself has become a slave to righteousness ~ a bondservant of Christ, as he says elsewhere ~ but yet he still says of himself:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Do you not see Paul's own inner struggle? Surely you do. It actually almost ~ almost ~ sounds as if he's acknowledging that he doesn't have free will. That's not the case; free will really has very little to do with what he's actually saying. Surely you see his inner struggle against sin. Surely you do. If one is a Christian and doesn't struggle to put off the old man and put on the new, doesn't struggle to lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, then there's something very wrong, something that should make him question whether he really realizes how serious sin really is, and maybe even whether he is a Christian or not.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

For those who insist Jesus , Salvations Messiah, Immanuel ''God with us'', was born with a sinful nature: If that were true he would have to die to save himself.

No, because He fulfilled the Law perfectly and did not sin. Therefore, Himself was/is not subject to the wages of sin, which is death. In a real way, as I said before, He accomplished His own salvation by fulfilling the Law perfectly.

Before becoming in bloody crucified sacrifice what 1 Peter 1:19 describes as, the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

This doesn't strike me as a complete sentence, but I think I understand what you are saying here and agree.

With a sinful nature Jesus would have to save himself before he was a noble unblemished sacrifice for others.

No, actually, if He had sinned. The issue is not the propensity to sin, but sin itself. It's not "the wages of the sinful nature is death," but rather "the wages of sin is death." Since He remained without sin, He most certainly was "a noble unblemished sacrifice for others." did. See above.

A sinner cannot take the sins of the world upon himself and put those sins under his precious corrupt by sin nature blood.

Yes, and Jesus did not sin. But the fact that He was tempted in every way we are (Hebrews 4:15) should tell you that there was at least something in Him ~ in His nature as a man ~ that was inclined toward sin. If there was not at least something in Jesus's human nature that was inclined toward sin, He would obviously never have been tempted at all.

The nature of a person is not what corrupts, but rather sin itself. He was not "corrupt" merely because He took the form of man and became like him in every way. He was also of God, possessing the same nature as the Father, and as such, He was able overcame that sinful human nature... and did. This is how He accomplished our redemption. And His own, in His human state.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

No, because He fulfilled the Law perfectly and did not sin. Therefore, Himself was/is not subject to the wages of sin, which is death. In a real way, as I said before, He accomplished His own salvation by fulfilling the Law perfectly...

Jesus saved himself by fulfilling the law?

You don't understand the words of the God. Nor know what the law was.

Humans cannot keep the law because we are not perfect.

The order and character of God was reflected as God's law.
Man's ego defined God's law,corrupted God's law, as the Sanhedrin proved, and as such were condemned in no uncertain terms by Jesus.


Jesus kept God's law perfectly because he was perfectly God.

He did not save himself because Jesus did not need saving.
Your false teaching says God was a sinner when you think Jesus was born with a sin nature.

That's blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Sin entered the world through one man. Jesus' father was not a man.

Jesus/God was begotten upon Mary by God, the word made flesh that dwelt among us.

I realize you don't believe that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

LOL! Do you think, 1stCenturyLady, that you don't sin anymore? That, yes, even though we have become slaves of righteous now, that we no longer sin, and therefore have nothing to confess, and ask forgiveness, and repent of? Surely you would agree that Paul is also saying that he himself has become a slave to righteousness ~ a bondservant of Christ, as he says elsewhere ~ but yet he still says of himself:

I'm 75. 45 years ago I had been going to church for 30 years, and still willfully sinned. In fact, at the end of those 30 years I was in a relationship with a married man and did not want to quit. Not one prayer was ever answered. My keys or wallet stayed lost. I had no divine protection (which is the meaning of the Hebrew idiom about serpents and poison in Mark 16:18) and was even raped twice; one of those times by a bona fide serial rapist who finally went to prison. I moved to Los Angeles and because of the studios, I dated many movie stars, directors and producers, and music industry recording artists. I still see old friends on TV or oldies but goodies radio all these years later. Nothing supernatural ever happened in my life to make me believe there even was a God. But I never went so far as to become an agnostic or atheist. But now I was actually breaking one of the Ten Commandments - adultery. That would send me to hell. So I started seeking God in a different way, and started searching for a church. And without telling you my whole testimony I found one and six months later saw a vision, God spoke to me 8 sentences that are seared into me, and was filled with His Spirit. While being filled I actually felt a heaviness leave my body. I know now it was my sin nature, and all desire to willfully sin left me. I still hear God's voice and we have established a relationship. So to answer your question, I no longer willfully sin, or commit things I need to repent from for the past 45 years. 1 John 1:9 is not a viscous cycle of sin/repent, sin/repent, sin/repent; it is to receive the Holy Spirit once and start growing in the fruit of the Spirit. Acts 2:38 is the sister verse to 1 John 1:9. But you believe a different doctrine that Paul warned us about.

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Romans 7:14-25)

Do you not see Paul's own inner struggle? Surely you do. It actually almost ~ almost ~ sounds as if he's acknowledging that he doesn't have free will. That's not the case; free will really has very little to do with what he's actually saying. Surely you see his inner struggle against sin. Surely you do. If one is a Christian and doesn't struggle to put off the old man and put on the new, doesn't struggle to lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, then there's something very wrong, something that should make him question whether he really realizes how serious sin really is, and maybe even whether he is a Christian or not.

Start reading from verse 5 and you will see that Romans 7:14-25 is in reference to those from 1500 years to their present before Jesus when they had to keep the law of Moses. Then read Romans 8:1-9, especially verse 2 and see that Paul was freed from that struggle you are talking about. See you've fallen into another trap of false teachers to read out of context. You are where many followers of those false doctrines are during my first 30 years. It is a defeatist doctrine of demons. I've known the actual divine power of God ever since. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

 

[Mr E]

The highest that year was Joseph Ciaphas.

That's a strange understanding-- care to elaborate? I take it you aren't much of a Greek enthusiast.... totally different words.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I'm 75. 45 years ago I had been going to church for 30 years, and still willfully sinned. In fact, at the end of those 30 years I was in a relationship with a married man and did not want to quit. Not one prayer was ever answered. My keys or wallet stayed lost. I had no divine protection (which is the meaning of the Hebrew idiom about serpents and poison in Mark 16:18) and was even raped twice; one of those times by a bona fide serial rapist who finally went to prison. I moved to Los Angeles and because of the studios, I dated many movie stars, directors and producers, and music industry recording artists. I still see old friends on TV or oldies but goodies radio all these years later. Nothing supernatural ever happened in my life to make me believe there even was a God. But I never went so far as to become an agnostic or atheist. But now I was actually breaking one of the Ten Commandments - adultery. That would send me to hell. So I started seeking God in a different way, and started searching for a church. And without telling you my whole testimony I found one and six months later saw a vision, God spoke to me 8 sentences that are seared into me, and was filled with His Spirit. While being filled I actually felt a heaviness leave my body. I know now it was my sin nature, and all desire to willfully sin left me. I still hear God's voice and we have established a relationship. So to answer your question, I no longer willfully sin, or commit things I need to repent from for the past 45 years. 1 John 1:9 is not a viscous cycle of sin/repent, sin/repent, sin/repent; it is to receive the Holy Spirit once and start growing in the fruit of the Spirit. Acts 2:38 is the sister verse to 1 John 1:9. But you believe a different doctrine that Paul warned us about.



Start reading from verse 5 and you will see that Romans 7:14-25 is in reference to those from 1500 years to their present before Jesus when they had to keep the law of Moses. Then read Romans 8:1-9, especially verse 2 and see that Paul was freed from that struggle you are talking about. See you've fallen into another trap of false teachers to read out of context. You are where many followers of those false doctrines are during my first 30 years. It is a defeatist doctrine of demons. I've known the actual divine power of God ever since. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

What a testimony! Thank you for sharing that with us. It was moving.

I would love to know those 8 sentences that were seared into you that you remember to this day. And I'm certain you do. How could you not?
However, I also know that is deeply personal.
I know what you mean about hearing God's voice. It's unmistakable.

Again, your testimony is a blessing.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus saved himself by fulfilling the law?

As a man, He did. As God, He did not need to save Himself. Because He was God in the flesh, He was able to do what other men cannot do ~ save themselves, justify themselves. As the Son of Man, He did this on behalf of all His sheep.

You don't understand the words of the God. Nor know what the law was.

I'm sorry you think that, but it's not true. It's a little puzzling why you would make such a statement as this, because I think we agree on a lot more than you realize.

Humans cannot keep the law because we are not perfect.

Agreed.

The order and character of God was reflected as God's law.

Agreed.

Man's ego defined God's law, corrupted God's law, as the Sanhedrin proved, and as such were condemned in no uncertain terms by Jesus.

Yes, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, the Judaizers... sure, they corrupted God's Law in various ways, and Jesus condemned that. Sure. And it's still being done today. Sure.

Jesus kept God's law perfectly because he was perfectly God.

Agreed.

He did not save himself because Jesus did not need saving.

Agreed. And this trumps everything. However...

...in the sense that Jesus humbled Himself and set aside His position as the second Person of the triune Jehovah for a time (though He did not cease to be God even for a moment), and was in the form of man (morphe' in the Greek, which means the thing itself, so He was a man), technically, He needed saving, and save Himself ~ by keeping the Law perfectly... by fulfilling the Law and not transgressing it~ He did. And He was able to do this because He was God.

Your false teaching says God was a sinner

Not at all. But He did take the form of one, like Him in every way. Hey, James tells us that God can't be tempted (James 1:13), right? Well, but we know Jesus was tempted by Satan, don't we? So if Jesus is God ~ which you said, and I agree with ~ but He was tempted, then... somehow we have to reconcile those two seemingly opposed things, right? So how would you do that?

you think Jesus was born with a sin nature.

When Jesus was born of Mary, He was made man in every way. Yet He was still God. 100% man, and 100% God.

That's blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Absolutely not. It's the Gospel.

Sin entered the world through one man. Jesus' father was not a man.

But His the mother of Jesus, in His humanity, was a woman, and He was descended from Eve, just like you and I were.

Jesus/God was begotten upon Mary by God, the word made flesh that dwelt among us.

Agree. Think about that, Blue Dragonfly. The Word made flesh.

I realize you don't believe that.

Oh, I do.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Mr E]

Often people are quick to take offense and slow to understand. What I mean is, the easier path is to be offended by something someone says instead of seeking to understand what it is that they are saying. If I call you a heretic I diminish your message immediately and silence your voice by impugning your character. It's rather cowardly. It's nothing more than a tactic people employ when they feel threatened. It's name calling. Rather than addressing the point, they strike out against the one who makes it.

Heresy!
Blasphemy!

It's the very charges that Jesus was met with when he presented ideas that were unfamiliar. Unfamiliar and unaccepted. That didn't make those ideas wrong.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm 75. 45 years ago I had been going to church for 30 years, and still willfully sinned. In fact, at the end of those 30 years I was in a relationship with a married man and did not want to quit. Not one prayer was ever answered. My keys or wallet stayed lost. I had no divine protection (which is the meaning of the Hebrew idiom about serpents and poison in Mark 16:18) and was even raped twice; one of those times by a bona fide serial rapist who finally went to prison. I moved to Los Angeles and because of the studios, I dated many movie stars, directors and producers, and music industry recording artists. I still see old friends on TV or oldies but goodies radio all these years later. Nothing supernatural ever happened in my life to make me believe there even was a God. But I never went so far as to become an agnostic or atheist. But now I was actually breaking one of the Ten Commandments - adultery. That would send me to hell. So I started seeking God in a different way, and started searching for a church. And without telling you my whole testimony I found one and six months later saw a vision, God spoke to me 8 sentences that are seared into me, and was filled with His Spirit. While being filled I actually felt a heaviness leave my body. I know now it was my sin nature, and all desire to willfully sin left me. I still hear God's voice and we have established a relationship. So to answer your question, I no longer willfully sin, or commit things I need to repent from for the past 45 years. 1 John 1:9 is not a viscous cycle of sin/repent, sin/repent, sin/repent; it is to receive the Holy Spirit once and start growing in the fruit of the Spirit. Acts 2:38 is the sister verse to 1 John 1:9. But you believe a different doctrine that Paul warned us about.



Start reading from verse 5 and you will see that Romans 7:14-25 is in reference to those from 1500 years to their present before Jesus when they had to keep the law of Moses. Then read Romans 8:1-9, especially verse 2 and see that Paul was freed from that struggle you are talking about. See you've fallen into another trap of false teachers to read out of context. You are where many followers of those false doctrines are during my first 30 years. It is a defeatist doctrine of demons. I've known the actual divine power of God ever since. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

1stCenturyLady, I appreciate everything you said, and am so glad your burden has been lifted. I agree that 1 John 1:9 is not a "vicious cycle" of any kind. I'm not even sure where that idea even comes from. But it is a great promise ~ enunciated by John, but from God ~ that when we confess our sins, He is ~ because we are His ~ faithful and just to forgive. John is writing to believers there, as I'm sure you know, and in verse 8 (immediately preceding verse 9, of course), he says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I'm not sure if you're saying you have no sin, but it seems so. Are you? Because if you are, well, then ~ sorry ~ you're deceiving yourself.

Regarding Romans 7, Paul, in the passage I quoted (vv.14-25) is talking about himself in the present. And what he's saying there is true of all of us, at least to our own degrees. Yes, he is contrasting between the Levitical Law ~ the civil and ceremonial laws found in the Old Testament, the "written code" ~ but now we are under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), as he says, which is also the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2). Paul is saying here what the writer of Hebrews is saying in Hebrews 7:18, that "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God."

Which takes us to Romans 8, where, what he's saying is that though we still struggle, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1) and God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). This is the freedom, not yet from sin itself (for now), but from condemnation for it. And like he finally says at the end of that chapter, "...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).

Like Blue Dragonfly above, I think you and I, 1stCenturyLady, probably agree on quite a lot, and probably more than you seem to realize.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[face2face]

For those who insist Jesus , Salvations Messiah, Immanuel ''God with us'', was born with a sinful nature:
If that were true he would have to die to save himself.

That is true Blue.
Hebrews 9:12 is the proof text.
He obtained eternal redemption for himself and those he represented.
Hebrews 5:7 is a proof text
He relied on his Father to save him from death and from that which condemned us.
Romans 8:1
No condemnation in Christ as it was before he was offered up as a sacrifice for sin.

Impossible for Jesus to be God!

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

That is true Blue.
Hebrews 9:12 is the proof text.
He obtained eternal redemption for himself and those he represented.
Hebrews 5:7 is a proof text
He relied on his Father to save him from death and from that which condemned us.
Romans 8:1
No condemnation in Christ as it was before he was offered up as a sacrifice for sin.

Impossible for Jesus to be God!

You're right.
It is not possible for you to know Immanuel was God.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus' nature was no different than ours.

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham..r."

Whatever kind of nature had the "seed of Abraham", Jesus had that nature.

Those of you who claim Jesus had some unfair advantage over humanity to live a perfectly obedient life are the best players on Satan's team, for if Jesus had just one ounce of advantage over us, Satan would daily be in the face of God accusing Him as unjust before the entire universe for demanding humans meet the same standard as Jesus did, yet without His advantage...and Satan would be absolutely right.

Yes, apart from Him we can do nothing, but we "can do ALL THINGS through Christ".

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Jesus' nature was no different than ours.

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham..r."

Whatever kind of nature had the "seed of Abraham", Jesus had that nature.

Those of you who claim Jesus had some unfair advantage over humanity to live a perfectly obedient life are the best players on Satan's team, for if Jesus had just one ounce of advantage over us, Satan would daily be in the face of God accusing Him as unjust before the entire universe for demanding humans meet the same standard as Jesus did, yet without His advantage...and Satan would be absolutely right.

Yes, apart from Him we can do nothing, but we "can do ALL THINGS through Christ".

One of many problems with your blasphemy against the holy spirit.

You also misrepresent what is actually written in Hebrews 2.

The nature of angels? Is not that of sinless perfection. Angels rebelled against God in the war in heaven.

The actual Hebrews 2 verse reads like this:
Hebrews 2:16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus was tempted and suffered,fasting 40 days and nights in the desert.
He did not succumb to temptation because he was made like his brothers in every respect except being divine, he could not have a sin nature.

Why? He was begotten of God.
To insist Jesus had a sin nature is to say God's divine nature shared space with the fallen sin nature.

And while some here do insist Jesus saved himself when he saved us, because they claim he had a sin nature, that's blasphemy against the holy spirit too.