It doesn't matter what Christianity may or may not believe in. It is what the bible teaches that matters. How do you know his wording is bad and he did not write exactly what he meant.
;) Yes, I'm sure he wrote what he meant! His "wording is bad" because he is describing biblical realities using bad theological language.
In other words, he is, I believe, in error. He actually believed that we have free will, but he believed that Christ was necessary both for us to choose for Salvation and to choose to do good.
That is true. God must approach us first--otherwise, how are we to know what is expected of us? And how can we display virtues that are His unless He presents us with the opportunity to show them for ourselves?
So there is much that I would agree with Luther on. But he was so forceful in his denunciation of "good works" that he virtually rendered them all worthless, unless they are part of the regenerate life. And that's why I think his words are bad.
All mankind has been presented with the opportunity to be saved and to do good. We do not require some kind of "special revelation" to make these choices, since they are the default order of human creation--we *can* in fact hear God! Those words are in our human conscience. We *can* do good. We *can* choose for Salvation. We don't have to be Predestined to do any of these things!
Unbelievers cannot choose God. Believers, at the moment of salvation have their free will restored. Only believers can choose or not choose God. The bible is unambiguously clear that teh unsaved will not choose God, for the things of God are foolishness to them.
You're saying two different things here, and one doesn't follow from the other. You're saying that only at the precise moment of Salvation does one obtain freewill. And you're saying that the unsaved will not choose God. (If the unsaved don't have freewill, how can they choose against God?)
Both ideas are off, in my opinion. People have free will from the time they are born. They can choose God from the time they receive the revelation that allows them to make that choice. All men are given the revelation of Christ. They just require preachers to enable that message to penetrate their minds.
That's why the Gospel needs to be preached, so that people have revealed to them the choice they can choose for or against. It makes no sense to give people a choice if they *cannot* choose for it!
But I do believe that there are people born out of human concession to Satan, that freedom *from God* is more to be desired than freedom *with God.* And these children I call "children of the Devil." In my view, they choose against God. It's not that they can't choose for God--just that they *won't.*
Paul made it clear. The unsaved are slaves to sin. slaves have no free will. They are owned by their masters. At least in Pauls day. And if we are to be obedient christians, we are to surrender our newly restored free will and became slaves to Jesus.
Your example is bad. Slaves do have free will--they are simply limited in what they can choose.
The lost person has free will, but is unable to display the virtues of God unless he receives the revelation of what they are. He is unable to choose for Salvation unless he is first given a clear picture of his options.
It is only when a lost person chooses *against* the virtues of God that he becomes a slave to sin. He cannot display virtue that he does not have, and choosing against getting these virtues from God he cannot display them.
There is another "bondage" in play here, a bondage to the curse of death. A person is a slave to the curse of death unless he makes use of Christ's free offer of Salvation, which delivers us from death through his righteous life, freely given to us by the Spirit. The "bondage," in this case, is a legal entanglement, which Man may not be liberated from, no matter how much good he does, if he doesn't resort to accepting Christ completely.
Yes every sin is acting independently from God. But I am leary of how you use it given your penchant for the unsaved having free will.
I have that "penchant" because it's fact. God gave volitional powers to man from the beginning. And all men are being offered the revelation of Christ, which notifies them that the virtues of Christ are available, as well as Eternal Life, if one commits his entire life to is. That is, he must "die to himself," and then let Christ inform him for the rest of his life about what the right path is.
Now this is how I define it in classes I teach.
all mankind has free volition (though that is a synonym of will) in that we can choose what job, what car, what food etc. But biblical free will is what allows a person to choose to follow God or not. The bible is clear, unsaved man will not choose to follow God unless God changes their heart.
Yes, that's partly what I just said. Man by nature has volitional powers, and can make free choices. And his ability to choose *for God* is dependent upon God's revelation being made known to him.
However, inasmuch as God has shared the revelation of Christ universally, that free choice is there. It just requires *explanation* in a world of chaos, which is what the Church has been called to do, by teaching, preaching, encouraging, demonstrating, etc.
That is biblically incorrect. We do not have a tendency to sin- we have a nature that is sin.
I disagree. Yes, we have a Sin Nature, but yes, we have a tendency towards ignoring or rejecting God's guidance. Even having accepted Christ, we constantly are beset by the temptations of the flesh, such as pride, defensiveness, irritability, impatience, rage, etc. That is, we initially feel hesitancy or outright resistance to God's communicated word in our conscience.
Of course, it's easy to obey God when it serves our own purpose. But that isn't a complete commitment to Christ. It's when Christ leads us to walk in purity that our own human impurities show up, the Sin Tendency, the Sin Inclination, as the Jews call it.
Ephesians 2
King James Version
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
We were spiritually dead!! Not juyst mortally wounded or had a soul that had a tendency to sin!~ We are by nature objects of wrath!!!!!!
Although we were "dead" in terms of the judgment of God, we were actually still alive physically. Being alive we were still able to receive divine revelation and make choices.
Our death, spiritually, is a matter both of not having a perfect record and a lack of the benefits that comes from that record. We may indeed receive some of the virtues and life of Christ and still not be able to apply that sinless record for salvation.
Then let me exsplain. What I mean superficial good is something done apart from seeking the glory of God in doing it.
That is no different from what I said in that the unsaved, non-Christians can do good through Christ without obtaining Salvation. That is, they are not seeking God's glory, but their own. As such, they do not obtain from Christ all of the merit that belongs to His virtues, namely the forgiveness of Sin.
A man becomes a missionary and saves tens of thousands of souls through the preaching of the gospel. God called him just to stay home,be a faithful church attender and give to missions and raise godly children.
When He stands before teh throne- all his missionj work will be burned up as wood hay and stubble even though it is a very good work. Why? Because even in doing good, he was disobedient to Gods call on his life.
That's a bit harsh. Many Christians have failed to fully obey God. But they have obeyed God in the most important matter of acknowledging Salvation in Christ's ways alone.
The fact they do not always live in that way does not mitigate against them--it only tarnishes their record, and renders their example weak and less productive.
The thief on the cross who accepted Christ was hardly very productive in his life. But a single choice served to speak to many, many generations, who need to know that the simple act of repentance is sufficient for Salvation.
And you would give man the credit for seeing His need for jesus while the /bible gives God the credit. What is in the person who accepots Chreist that is not in the person who rejects Christ? Can't say free will for both have them. Can't say human wisdom- for all the bible verses I posted to you.
Yes, I give all men credit if they accept the need to display the virtues of Christ, even if they don't accept Christ himself. They at least have that. It may mean "less stripes" when they are cast out of the future "Paradise."
I'll take whatever men are willing to do, even if they refuse to get saved. Any good they do is welcome by me!
