Questions from Insight - expect no reciprocation, at all....

[Insight]

I have created this thread for the sole purpose of asking the member’s of this forum questions that a presented to me during studies, preaching and teaching events. I am conscious of the wealth of knowledge and experience in this forum, as such I would like to post questions from time to time in a non threatening way, without reprisal.

Here is a question I was asked recently which I would like some help to resolve. I should note these questions are totally unrelated to this forum and its content.

Can we as Christians suggest God and Jesus shared an oneness of mind and purpose even up to and including Jesus's death?

If so, why, and if not, why not?

Many thanks

Insight

p.s If you dont mind I will be using some of your answers outside of this forum.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Insight,

Your question presumes that Jesus was GOD on earth. However, Scripture says he divested himself of his heritage and became a lowly man. So instead of being in his normal role, he became a servant, obedient to every word which proceeded from GOD.

Of course, upon his death and resurrection Jesus assumed HIS rightful place beside GOD and the Holy Spirit.



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Hi Insight,

Your question presumes that Jesus was GOD on earth. However, Scripture says he divested himself of his heritage and became a lowly man. So instead of being in his normal role, he became a servant, obedient to every word which proceeded from GOD.

Of course, upon his death and resurrection Jesus assumed HIS rightful place beside GOD and the Holy Spirit.



BibleScribe

Thank you BibleScribe.

A succinct answer that I have come to expect.

Although I do not agree in full I will resist from presenting any arguments.

I like the clarity of this statement “he became a servant, obedient to every word which proceeded from GOD.”

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

Thank you BibleScribe.
...

My pleasure! :)

 

[brionne]

I have created this thread for the sole purpose of asking the member’s of this forum questions that a presented to me during studies, preaching and teaching events. I am conscious of the wealth of knowledge and experience in this forum, as such I would like to post questions from time to time in a non threatening way, without reprisal.

Here is a question I was asked recently which I would like some help to resolve. I should note these questions are totally unrelated to this forum and its content.



If so, why, and if not, why not?

Many thanks

Insight

p.s If you dont mind I will be using some of your answers outside of this forum.

It depends what is meant by 'oneness of mind and purpose'

To me, that is 'unity' and in the sense of being united in mind and purpose, then yes, Jesus and God were united right up to Jesus death and through his resurrection and even right now...Jesus is Gods greatest spokesperson and for that reason he is eternally so. He was united with God before he was born as a man, and he will continue to be united in mind and purpose forever.

 

[Angelina]

Hi Insight!

Interesting question.

Can we as Christians suggest God and Jesus shared an oneness of mind and purpose even up to and including Jesus's death?

He struggled with many things while in the flesh but he did not sin. Hebrews 4:15

Matthew 26
36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

Matthew 27: 45-46
[sup]45[/sup] From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. [sup]46[/sup] About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Hebrews 5
[sup]7[/sup] During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. [sup]8[/sup] Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered [sup]9[/sup] and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him [sup]10[/sup] and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Blessings!

 

[Insight]

It depends what is meant by 'oneness of mind and purpose'

To me, that is 'unity' and in the sense of being united in mind and purpose, then yes, Jesus and God were united right up to Jesus death and through his resurrection and even right now...Jesus is Gods greatest spokesperson and for that reason he is eternally so. He was united with God before he was born as a man, and he will continue to be united in mind and purpose forever.

Thanks Pegg

As you know I dont personally agree with the bold text, but I do like how you introduced "unity", I will further explore such verses that speak to unity in God, Christ and the Saints.

Many thanks

Insight

Hi Insight!

Interesting question.


He struggled with many things while in the flesh but he did not sin. Hebrews 4:15

Matthew 26
36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

Matthew 27: 45-46
[sup]45[/sup] From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. [sup]46[/sup] About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Hebrews 5
[sup]7[/sup] During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. [sup]8[/sup] Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered [sup]9[/sup] and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him [sup]10[/sup] and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Blessings!

Hi Angelina

Great. I was thinking along the same lines.

"Not MY will, but THINE be done..." and how in this suffering he learned obedience.

Insight

 

[brionne]

Thanks Pegg

As you know I dont personally agree with the bold text, but I do like how you introduced "unity", I will further explore such verses that speak to unity in God, Christ and the Saints.

Many thanks

You might like to look at what Jesus said in John 17:11 '...watch over them...in order that they may be one just as we are"
Jesus is praying here that the disciples could become 'one' in the same way that he and God were one ... so the oneness of God and Christ is obviously not referring to a physical oneness such as in a 'trinitarian' sense. This is why I say its a 'unity'

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.


1Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit

Ephesians 4:3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called

2Cor 13:11 Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement

Philipians 2:2 make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind


If the congregation of God can become 'one', then it is speaking about a unified group of people....and that is what Jesus was with God, he was his own individual person unified with God in purpose,mind, love and thought.

 

[Insight]

If the congregation of God can become 'one', then it is speaking about a unified group of people....and that is what Jesus was with God, he was his own individual person unified with God in purpose,mind, love and thought.

Pegg,

Many Trinitarian believers do not believe Jesus and God are separate persons. It shows how far reaching the platonic influence has corrupted the simplicity of the Bible message.

I am finding the more discussions I hold with TB's the most frightening reality is becoming clearer.

Imagine when Jesus returns and one approaches him as a Truine God; would Jesus be right to say "I do not know you depart from me...."

The persona of both Yahweh and His Son is an essential study for what does the great Apostle tell us.

John 17:3 emphasis on "and"

Insight

 

[Insight]

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (Luke 2:40)

And...

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (Luke 2:52)

See Increased

How do Trinitarian believers reconcile Jesus growing spiritually, like us and still being God?

Is there any way of explaining how God was NOT pretending to learn and grow?

Do you have Bible verse to support?

Insight

 

[Prentis]

The answer is simple! :)

Jesus was also fully man... He was born with a soul and body like ours... Starting as a baby and untrained. Thus he had to grow spiritually as a MAN. Remember that he laid aside the power that he had before, taking on the flesh. Thus he played by the same rules as we do, and was empowered by the Father, following everything the Father did.

 

[Insight]

The answer is simple! :)

Jesus was also fully man... He was born with a soul and body like ours... Starting as a baby and untrained. Thus he had to grow spiritually as a MAN. Remember that he laid aside the power that he had before, taking on the flesh. Thus he played by the same rules as we do, and was empowered by the Father, following everything the Father did.

So you believe Jesus was not divine also?

 

[aspen]

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (Luke 2:40)

And...

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (Luke 2:52)

See Increased

How do Trinitarian believers reconcile Jesus growing spiritually, like us and still being God?

Is there any way of explaining how God was NOT pretending to learn and grow?

Do you have Bible verse to support?

Insight

Wow....great thread! I hate to give standard catholic answer, but i think it is a real mystery. Somehow, Jesus was God without being all-powerful, all-present, or all-knowing. He exercised perfect faith and love and was therefore sinless. He also provided an example which He believed we were capable of following with the sanctification of the HS. I believe He humbled himself for our sakes and allowed the Father to reveal everything to Him in the Fathers own time. This is all I know

 

[aspen]

I think we know very little about the spiritual attributes of God, yet He allows to know Him intimately. It reminds me of the relationship between an infant and mother.

 

[Vengle]

Hi Insight,

Your question presumes that Jesus was GOD on earth. However, Scripture says he divested himself of his heritage and became a lowly man. So instead of being in his normal role, he became a servant, obedient to every word which proceeded from GOD.

Of course, upon his death and resurrection Jesus assumed HIS rightful place beside GOD and the Holy Spirit.



BibleScribe

While yet alive in the flesh, well before his death and resurrection, Jesus said, John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

John 17:22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

That oneness was never at anytime broken or given up by Jesus.

The only point where we might question that oneness would be right at the point of Jesus death when he cried out, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me."

But that oneness was not even then broken or failing to exist. For what Jesus was undergoing was both his and his Father's desire out of their great love for us. And the existence of that oneness gave the cause for the Father to resurrect His Son.

 

[Prentis]

So you believe Jesus was not divine also?

To the opposite! He was fully God and fully man... But he chose to lay aside his own power, and be as a man. :)

 

[BibleScribe]

To the opposite! He was fully God and fully man... But he chose to lay aside his own power, and be as a man. :)

Hey Prentis,

Scripture is so simple if one will put the pieces together. And so I would council each to ignore what comes from the pulpit until fully vetted. As such, Scripture says that Jesus laid aside his inheritance:


Phil 2:6-8
[sup]6[/sup] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, [sup]7[/sup] but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. [sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.


And thus being found in the likeness of men, he was able to be tempted:

James 1:13
[sup]13[/sup] Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.


But to vaiidate this premise, I would observe that Jesus did nothing not common to man, (except the forgiveness of sins), and in fact stated that we can do "greater" things than even he did:


John 14:12
[sup]12[/sup] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.



And so we should each realize the example which you and I both know, and are both able to follow in our humanity, as demonstrated by his humanity.


But we also recognize that when Jesus completed his sacrifice, that he once again took HIS rightful place beside GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT.



BibleScribe

 

[Prentis]

I would say he did do things uncommon to man... Until then. Things that are impossible to man... But possible with God. The things he did, we cannot do, except by him. :)

We are able to follow WHILE in our mortal bodies, IF we leave our nature and take on his.

 

[BibleScribe]

I would say he did do things uncommon to man... Until then. Things that are impossible to man... But possible with God. The things he did, we cannot do, except by him. :)

We are able to follow WHILE in our mortal bodies, IF we leave our nature and take on his.

Hey Prentis,

If one considers how Jesus was transfigured, so too Moses' face became as light:

Exodus 34:29-35
[sup]29[/sup] Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. [sup]30[/sup] So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. [sup]31[/sup] Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. [sup]32[/sup] Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the LORD had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. [sup]33[/sup] And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. [sup]34[/sup] But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. [sup]35[/sup] And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.


And so all things Jesus did (even walking on water) were possible for others prior to the completion of his sacrifice for mankind.

But of course, where these things were done through GOD, under the sacrifice of animals, we now do these things through Christ, the living sacrifice. :)


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

 

[Prentis]

Hey Prentis,

If one considers how Jesus was transfigured, so too Moses' face became as light:

Exodus 34:29-35
[sup]29[/sup] Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. [sup]30[/sup] So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. [sup]31[/sup] Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. [sup]32[/sup] Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the LORD had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. [sup]33[/sup] And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. [sup]34[/sup] But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. [sup]35[/sup] And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.


And so all things Jesus did (even walking on water) were possible for others prior to the completion of his sacrifice for mankind.

But of course, where these things were done through GOD, under the sacrifice of animals, we now do these things through Christ, the living sacrifice. :)


Your Friend,
BibleScribe

Amen! With God all things are possible! :)

I think it pleased God not to allow them (the OT saints) to be perfected apart from the NT saints, and the New Covenant. The upgrade, I would say, actually comes in heart. Now, by the New Covenant, we the love of God may be perfected in us, and by his example, we may love as he loves! No more calling down fire on the ungodly! ;)