22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read Matthew chapters 24 & 25 where Jesus was speaking to Israel about the end times.

It doesn't matter who He was speaking to, it matters who He was speaking about. He is only coming once in the future and there is only one judgment day, so there is no basis whatsoever to claim that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 are different events or that Matthew 25:31-46 is a portrayal of some other judgment day than Acts 17:31 or Revelation 20:11-15.

Notice all the calamities they will face, the same ones in Revelation. Also notice all the times he tells them to be alert, to look for signs, to be prepared and not get caught short handed.

Then Read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 through 5:5 where Paul was talking to Christians about their end times. Notice a complete lack of calamities which are instead replaced by the exhortation to comfort each other with this news.

Just because two passages about His second coming don't contain all the same details doesn't mean they aren't talking about the same event. Why is this concept so hard for some to understand?

Also notice that Christians have no need to look for signs or times.

That is not true. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked about "increased wickedness" and to watch out not to be deceived by false Christs and false prophets and such. That is the same kind of thing that Paul wrote about in passages like 1 Thess 5:1-11 and 2 Thess 2:1-12 in relation to the need to be spiritually aware of what is going on in order to not be deceived. So, I'm not buying your arguments at all.

Why do you think Jesus and Paul gave such different messages to Israel and the church? I value your input, so I'd be curious as to how you see this.

They didn't. You somehow forgot that Jesus warned about deception in relation to His second coming just as Paul did. Paul didn't talk about physical calamaties, but so what? They doesn't mean He was talking about some other coming of Christ than Jesus Himself was talking about. That just wasn't Paul's focus. Jesus did talk about His wrath that will occur on the day He returns in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Thess 1:7-9 just as Christ Himself did in passages like Matthew 24:35-51. There's just no basis whatsoever for thinking that the coming of the Son of Man that Jesus talked about was a different coming of Christ than "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15) and revealing of Jesus from heaven (2 Thess 1:7) that Paul wrote about.

 

[Rich R]

I understand you, what's your problem with me?
However statements as above, show our beliefs to be irreconcilable. It seems that you simply cannot see the many prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 22:14, romans 9:27, +

I have no problem with you. I think you have some good ideas, even if they're not exactly like mine. I'm not the standard for truth you know.

I just don't know exactly what you mean by, "The Jewish State of Israel."

Rom 9:27,

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
​

I'm also not sure what you mean by the "virtual demise of Israel." This verse says there will be some saved.

Read the whole of Isaiah 29 and it's evident that God will eventually heal Israel. Isaiah 61 also seems pretty favorable to Israel in the end, which end is described in Revelation. Isaiah and Revelation are both about how God will fulfill the promise of a physical kingdom, one the can be seen with the eyes, the one He promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et. al.

I don't think nearly as bad of you as you might imagine. We just think a bit different about some doctrine, but that's not going to outweigh my love and care for you as a brother in Christ.

 

[The Light]

Yet you are totally dismissing Matthew 13, when Jesus as King is personally on earth along with the angels.

In Rev 14 we see that Jesus is in the clouds, not on the earth. Also we see in Matthew 13 that the tares are gathered first. However, at the 6th seal we see that the earth is reaped of believers first. Can you explain this?

Matthew 13

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Also, notice how the Church meets the Lord in the air and the Lord is not on the earth.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You are dismissing that at the 6th Seal Jesus sets up His throne and Temple in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31.
You are totally dismissing Zechariah 14 when Jesus saves Jerusalem by stepping onto the Mount of Olives. This all happens at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus only comes to earth once with the angels, the 6th Seal. If Armageddon happens, it may not, then Jesus returns with the sheep and wheat of the Trumpets and Thunders. If the 7th Trumpet is not interrupted, then Satan will not get 42 months, and there will be no Armageddon. The sheep and wheat start the Millennium Kingdom on earth when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

No. No. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is not the same as the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal there is a rapture and that is why there is a great multitude in heaven.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is in heaven during the wrath of God, which is the trumpets. THEN after that, Jesus returns to the earth with the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So, the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is not the same as Jesus coming with the armies of heaven at the end of the wrath of God.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Normal angels can appear as humans. These are rebel angels, and they don't appear as super heroes to save us from themselves. They appear as evil super villains to destroy the earth, and eventually attack heaven itself by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

So if you think these rebel angels who left their first estate will return to being normal angels obedient to God, you are dead wrong. John describes them as they exit the pit. And they are going to be really angry after being bound for thousands of years, not merciful. That is why they are the first woe.

The angels are in chains until their judgment, it appears as I see no verses that say they are unchained and released against people. That is locusts that are released at the 5th seal, not angels.

 

[The Light]

Nowhere in the Bible are we told people will escape God's wrath by being removed from the earth. We are told to call upon His Name; Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21, and that we must endure untill the end; Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:13, Revelation 13:10, and that He will protect us. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91:1-16

You can hang around and endure till the end. I will do as instructed and watch and be ready for the return of the bridegroom and pray that I am worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

The typical off the cuff, assertive answer from one locked into the false and unscriptural idea of the 'rapture to heaven'.

If you can't find a rapture to heaven in the Word, have you thought about taking up golf.

I provide scriptural support for my beliefs, you fail to do that, and to say a rapture will happen before the Seals are opened, is arrant nonsense.

What you have provided is a translation that is totally and completely in error. I looked at countless other translations and all of them say ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS. So the scriptural support that you claim to provide is bogus baloney based on what someone thinks the scripture should say based on a lack of understanding by said translator. This bogus translation is not a word for word translation and thus should be tossed aside at the bare minimum.

And you keep saying the rapture to heaven is in error and yet I showed you the 144,000 that were redeemed FROM THE EARTH and standing before the son of man.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

This of course proves that the throne is not on the earth as you claim.

My Bible, translated from many sources by a team of expert linguists; DOES say - pass safely through all that is coming....Luke 21:36
That statement does fit with all the other prophesies about the Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath. A 'rapture' does not.

Strange that your translation does not agree with all the other translations that I looked at. You need to get rid of that translation as it seems to be the root of your lack of understanding.

 

[Rich R]

It doesn't matter who He was speaking to, it matters who He was speaking about. He is only coming once in the future and there is only one judgment day, so there is no basis whatsoever to claim that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 are different events or that Matthew 25:31-46 is a portrayal of some other judgment day than Acts 17:31 or Revelation 20:11-15.

Just because two passages about His second coming don't contain all the same details doesn't mean they aren't talking about the same event. Why is this concept so hard for some to understand?

That is not true. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked about "increased wickedness" and to watch out not to be deceived by false Christs and false prophets and such. That is the same kind of thing that Paul wrote about in passages like 1 Thess 5:1-11 and 2 Thess 2:1-12 in relation to the need to be spiritually aware of what is going on in order to not be deceived. So, I'm not buying your arguments at all.

They didn't. You somehow forgot that Jesus warned about deception in relation to His second coming just as Paul did. Paul didn't talk about physical calamaties, but so what? They doesn't mean He was talking about some other coming of Christ than Jesus Himself was talking about. That just wasn't Paul's focus. Jesus did talk about His wrath that will occur on the day He returns in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Thess 1:7-9 just as Christ Himself did in passages like Matthew 24:35-51. There's just no basis whatsoever for thinking that the coming of the Son of Man that Jesus talked about was a different coming of Christ than "the coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15) and revealing of Jesus from heaven (2 Thess 1:7) that Paul wrote about.

If Jesus had spoken about the church to make known its end times, then it would hardly have been a secret, the one that God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul, the one about the church. There's really no way around that I can see.

Rom 16:25-26,

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

The "now" in v26 is when Paul wrote those words. Before that nobody knew.

​

Eph 3:8-9,

8 Unto me (Paul), who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

Again, before Paul nobody knew about the secret.

Eph 3:3a,

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...
​

A huge huge part of that mystery is how this age ends. It began on Pentecost and will end as per Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, and a few other references. One thing is certain; that end has no resemblance whatsoever with that described in Mathew 24 and Revelation.

You can not escape the truth that nothing about God's secret (including its beginning and its end) was in the scriptures until He revealed it to Paul who wrote it in his Epistles. Not one word Jesus spoke was about the church. If he had, then it would not have been a secret. I may be repeating myself here, but let those words sink in. I've been so wrong about so many things in the scriptures. I count it joy when I shed my error after seen the simple truth of God's word. He means what He says and it's not that difficult to understand what He meant when He said nobody knew about the mystery until He revealed it to Paul.

God even tells us exactly why He kept it a secret:

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
​

No crucifixion, no salvation! In other words, had Jesus spoken one word about the mystery, the church, we would still be dead in trespasses and sins! When we mix up what Jesus said to Israel with what Paul said to the church and none of these verses would mean anything at all! They would all be lies! Just cross 'em all out! That's precisely how tradition makes the word of God of none effect (Matt 15:6).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If Jesus had spoken about the church to make known its end times, then it would hardly have been a secret, the one that God kept secret until He revealed it to Paul, the one about the church. There's really no way around that I can see.

Rom 16:25-26,

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

The "now" in v26 is when Paul wrote those words. Before that nobody knew.

Jesus knew. You understand that, right? I'm not buying this argument you're making at all. Jesus talked about His "other sheep" in John 10, so it's not as if He didn't know that He would be be bringing Jew and Gentile believers together as one through His sacrifice.

A huge huge part of that mystery is how this age ends. It began on Pentecost and will end as per Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, and a few other references. One thing is certain; that end has no resemblance whatsoever with that described in Mathew 24 and Revelation.

What? I beg to differ. Compare these passages:

Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The Olivet Discourse passages talk about Jesus's coming being accompanied by a loud trumpet call and that a gathering of His people from throughout heaven and earth will happen at that time. That is exactly what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as well! The ones who are gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ. Then they are resurrected and they, along with those who are alive and remain are gathered to meet Christ. The similarities between these passages are obvious, but you try to say they are two completely different events. Unbelievable.

You can not escape the truth that nothing about God's secret (including its beginning and its end) was in the scriptures until He revealed it to Paul who wrote it in his Epistles. Not one word Jesus spoke was about the church.

This is utter nonsense. Who do you think Jesus is? Did you think He didn't know about the church when He walked the earth? Of course He did. Why are you acting as if even Jesus didn't know about these things until Paul revealed them? Who do you think revealed them to Paul? The Spirit of Christ.

If he had, then it would not have been a secret.

He didn't spell it out like Paul did, but He made subtle references to it like when He referred to His other sheep and in Matthew 22:1-13 where He told a parable about the gospel first going to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

I may be repeating myself here, but let those words sink in.

No, thanks. I have disagreed with almost everything you've said so far in all of your posts. Why would anything change now?

I've been so wrong about so many things in the scriptures.

And you still are, in my opinion.

I count it joy when I shed my error after seen the simple truth of God's word. He means what He says and it's not that difficult to understand what He meant when He said nobody knew about the mystery until He revealed it to Paul.

No other normal mortal human did. But, Jesus did. Jesus wasn't just another ordinary human being, obviously. He knew things like that, but did not explicitly reveal them since he knew Paul would be doing that.

God even tells us exactly why He kept it a secret:

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
​

No crucifixion, no salvation! In other words, had Jesus spoken one word about the mystery, the church, we would still be dead in trespasses and sins! When we mix up what Jesus said to Israel with what Paul said to the church and none of these verses would mean anything at all! They would all be lies! Just cross 'em all out! That's precisely how tradition makes the word of God of none effect (Matt 15:6).

I don't care for tradition. I told you that multiple times already. So, don't talk to me about tradition anymore.

 

[Timtofly]

You're saying that the dead being raised incorruptible in 1 Cor 15:52 refers to "those alive at the Second Coming". Do you know what the words "dead" and "alive" mean? Are you aware that those words are not synonyms?

Do you realize what Adam's flesh is?

Do you understand the word "mortal"?

 

[Timtofly]

The angels are in chains until their judgment, it appears as I see no verses that say they are unchained and released against people. That is locusts that are released at the 5th seal, not angels.

They are loosed in Revelation 9. So no excuse to see it.

Their judgment was to be bound in darkness until the end. Then they are cast into the LOF. The same thing will happen to Satan, but Satan has not been bound in the same pit, the same way, yet. That happens at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Then Satan will be loosed after the Millennium Kingdom.

 

[The Light]

They are loosed in Revelation 9. So no excuse to see it.

So you are saying that the locusts are angels?

 

[Timtofly]

So you are saying that the locusts are angels?

No, I am saying the angels take on that form, whatever it is. They are not locusts, unless you have seen a locust with the body of a horse, the hair of a woman, and the face of a man.

 

[Keraz]

I just don't know exactly what you mean by, "The Jewish State of Israel."

Rom 9:27, Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
I'm also not sure what you mean by the "virtual demise of Israel." This verse says there will be some saved.

I have visited the Jewish State of Israel; it does exist today.
The Lord will soon clear and cleanse the holy Land. The peoples currently occupying that area, including the Jewish State of Israel, will be uprooted and gone. As Jeremiah 12:14 clearly says.

Only a remnant will be saved; those few people who are faithful Christians now, that is about 15-20,000 - about .05% of the population.

Read the whole of Isaiah 29 and it's evident that God will eventually heal Israel. Isaiah 61 also seems pretty favorable to Israel in the end, which end is described in Revelation. Isaiah and Revelation are both about how God will fulfill the promise of a physical kingdom, one the can be seen with the eyes, the one He promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et. al.

Your error is in thinking that the visible Israel is the only Israel.
The true Israelites of God are the Overcomers for Him and they mainly comprise of people descended from the ten Northern tribes of the House of Israel. The Jewish people descend from the House of Judah.
Much confusion has come from the mistake of believing those apostate and atheistic peoples who wrongly call themselves Israel, will eventually convert to Christianity. No Bible prophecy says that. Not even the Jews themselves believe it.

 

[Keraz]

If you can't find a rapture to heaven in the Word, have you thought about taking up golf.

There is no scripture in the Bible which say the Lord intends to remove His people from the earth. As in a 'rapture to heaven'.
Even the godfather of the 'rapture', Dr John Walvoord, says a rapture is never mentioned in the Bible.

I know very well what the Lord really has planned for His faithful peoples; to bless them as they settle into all of the holy land in peace and prosperity, where we will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and the Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

Strange that your translation does not agree with all the other translations that I looked at. You need to get rid of that translation as it seems to be the root of your lack of understanding.

What I understand is that the REBible does not violate and contradict scriptures. To say we can escape when the just previous verse says disaster will come upon everybody the whole world over; is simply wrong and is not supported by any other scripture.

I know that a 'rapture' is probably all you have ever been taught. But that theory is wrong and those who believe it may have a hard time when the end times events do take place.

 

[dad]

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20.

Complete fabrication. The belief that we will be raised before the wrath has broad support.

· For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?

When did you think He would start reigning, BEFORE He returned??!

· Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.

Not ethnic Israel but saved ethnic Israel. Your basics are way off.

· They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium.

Why you imagine the rule of Jesus to be like that I have no idea. It certainly is not biblical in any way.

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point.

If you understood revelation you would not say this.

So you raise a strawman of rev 20 and proceed to display a profound ignorance of basics.

 

[dad]

Only a remnant will be saved; those few people who are faithful Christians now, that is about 15-20,000 - about .05% of the population.

False. The ones saved in the end are not saved already.

 

[covenantee]

Not ethnic Israel but saved ethnic Israel. Your basics are way off.

False. Israel was ethnically mixed and diverse from its birth and throughout its history.

Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

 

[Keraz]

False. The ones saved in the end are not saved already.

The ONLY people saved by the Lord will be those who have passed the test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12

Any ideas that a people who claim to be Israel, but who continue in their rejection of Jesus, will be redeemed and forgiven, is false and unscriptural.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus knew. You understand that, right? I'm not buying this argument you're making at all. Jesus talked about His "other sheep" in John 10, so it's not as if He didn't know that He would be be bringing Jew and Gentile believers together as one through His sacrifice.

Whether Jesus knew or not is irrelevant. Even if he did know he would have kept it a secret. He certainly would not have told it to anyone else Paul would be a liar.

The "other sheep" could not have been the church. There will be plenty of Gentiles admitted into paradise. Remember the malefactor whom Jesus said would be in paradise with him? The church was a secret.

What? I beg to differ. Compare these passages:

Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The Olivet Discourse passages talk about Jesus's coming being accompanied by a loud trumpet call and that a gathering of His people from throughout heaven and earth will happen at that time. That is exactly what Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as well! The ones who are gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ. Then they are resurrected and they, along with those who are alive and remain are gathered to meet Christ. The similarities between these passages are obvious, but you try to say they are two completely different events. Unbelievable.

You are confusing similar passages, making them identical. That is highly believable. What is unbelievable is your refusing to accept the simple truth despite clear cut evidence that your present beliefs are just wrong.

This is utter nonsense. Who do you think Jesus is? Did you think He didn't know about the church when He walked the earth? Of course He did. Why are you acting as if even Jesus didn't know about these things until Paul revealed them? Who do you think revealed them to Paul? The Spirit of Christ.

Well I do know that Paul said the Father is the one true God. Jesus himself said his Father is the one true God. If we accept that as true and we accept that Jesus is the son of God, then it would naturally follow that he in fact would not have known the mystery. Only God knew it. What is so hard to comprehend about that? The only impediment I can see is tradition.

He didn't spell it out like Paul did, but He made subtle references to it like when He referred to His other sheep and in Matthew 22:1-13 where He told a parable about the gospel first going to the Jews and then to the Gentiles.

Better look elsewhere for who Jesus meant by the Gentiles. One thing is for sure, he wasn't talking about the church. The church was a secret when Jesus was here! That can't be wished away.

No, thanks. I have disagreed with almost everything you've said so far in all of your posts. Why would anything change now?

It could change because of humility? I think so.

 

[Rich R]

I have visited the Jewish State of Israel; it does exist today.
The Lord will soon clear and cleanse the holy Land. The peoples currently occupying that area, including the Jewish State of Israel, will be uprooted and gone. As Jeremiah 12:14 clearly says.

Only a remnant will be saved; those few people who are faithful Christians now, that is about 15-20,000 - about .05% of the population.

Your error is in thinking that the visible Israel is the only Israel.
The true Israelites of God are the Overcomers for Him and they mainly comprise of people descended from the ten Northern tribes of the House of Israel. The Jewish people descend from the House of Judah.
Much confusion has come from the mistake of believing those apostate and atheistic peoples who wrongly call themselves Israel, will eventually convert to Christianity. No Bible prophecy says that. Not even the Jews themselves believe it.

I think I'm beginning to understand now. The Israel of today, the one you visited in, is no more God's chosen people than the man in the moon. I'm not sure what I said that would have been construed to say otherwise, but one human trying to convey his thoughts to another does not always work out perfectly. So I guess we agree after all?

 

[dad]

False. Israel was ethnically mixed and diverse from its birth and throughout its history.

Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

Doesn't matter they were the children of Jacob and Abraham and the chosen people. No one says they had to be ethnically pure or some such nonsense. That does not take away from the fact they were and are Israel.

 

[dad]

The ONLY people saved by the Lord will be those who have passed the test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12

Any ideas that a people who claim to be Israel, but who continue in their rejection of Jesus, will be redeemed and forgiven, is false and unscriptural.

No one needs your so called tests. A remnant will be saved. Period.