22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Read Matthew chapters 24 & 25 where Jesus was speaking to Israel about the end times. Notice all the calamities they will face, the same ones in Revelation. Also notice all the times he tells them to be alert, to look for signs, to be prepared and not get caught short handed.

Then Read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 through 5:5 where Paul was talking to Christians about their end times. Notice a complete lack of calamities which are instead replaced by the exhortation to comfort each other with this news. Also notice that Christians have no need to look for signs or times. Notice also in verse 3 the pronouns, "they" and "them" which describes the people who will experience inescapable destruction. "They" and "them" does not refer to those to whom Paul was speaking, i.e., the church. I'd say the "they" and "them" are those to whom Jesus spoke the words in Matthew, i.e., Israel.

Why do you think Jesus and Paul gave such different messages to Israel and the church? I value your input, so I'd be curious as to how you see this.

Where are the survivors in 1 Thess 4 and 5?

 

[Rich R]

Where are the survivors in 1 Thess 4 and 5?

1 Thess 4:17,

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

We'll meet Jesus in the clouds (not the earth) and we'll be with him from then on. When he does come to earth to fight the battle of Armageddon, we'll be with him. When he sits on his throne, we'll be with him.

Whatever one believes about the timing of events, one thing is certain; the church will have radically different experiences than Israel and the Gentiles in the end. Personally, I believe the church will be gathered together in the clouds before the wrath of God is shed on the earth.

Rom 5:9,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​

1 Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

 

[Keraz]

Personally, I believe the church will be gathered together in the clouds before the wrath of God is shed on the earth.

Actually; you are wrong.
The Testing of our Faith:

The Terrifying Expectation of a Fierce Fire Hebrews 10:27

Jeremiah 17:10 The Lord searches every heart and tests every mind, requiting each one for their conduct and as their deeds deserve.

Jeremiah 20:12 Lord, You test the righteous and search the depths of the heart. To You, I have committed my desires and aspirations; let me see Your vengeance on our enemies.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 In His dealings with us humans, God’s purpose is to test everyone to see what they are truly like.

Acts 14:22…to enter the Kingdom of God, we must endure many hardships.

1 Corinthians 10:13 So far you have faced no trial beyond human endurance; God keeps faith and will not let you be tested beyond your powers, but when the test comes, He will at the same time provide a way out and so enable you to endure it.

2 Timothy 3:12 Persecution and trials will indeed come to everyone who wants to live a godly life, as a follower of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 10:36 Endurance and perseverance is required in order to do God’s will and to win what He has promised.

1 Peter 4:12-19 Friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has come to test you, for the time has come for the judgement to begin and it begins with God’s own household. So if you suffer according to His will, you must continue to trust Him while still doing good and your Maker will not fail you.

James 1:2-3 & 12 My friends whenever you have to face all sorts of trials, count yourself supremely happy in the knowledge that such testing of your faith makes for strength to endure. Happy is the person who stands up to trial! Having passed the test, you will receive in reward the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him. Ref: REB, NIV.



Everyone will be tested, some in the past by persecution and some living in modern countries, by temptation. But when the great test by fiery ordeal comes, as Luke 21:34-36 says: Be alert, for that Day will come suddenly, like a trap, upon everyone the whole world over. Pray for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming.

What the Apostles are telling us is throughout this age, there will be persecution and trials for God’s people, but when the time for the judgement begins, that is: the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, then endurance and fortitude will be required along with an unswerving faith and trust in His protection. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +

 

[Rich R]

Actually; you are wrong.
The Testing of our Faith:

The Terrifying Expectation of a Fierce Fire Hebrews 10:27

Jeremiah 17:10 The Lord searches every heart and tests every mind, requiting each one for their conduct and as their deeds deserve.

Jeremiah 20:12 Lord, You test the righteous and search the depths of the heart. To You, I have committed my desires and aspirations; let me see Your vengeance on our enemies.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 In His dealings with us humans, God’s purpose is to test everyone to see what they are truly like.

Acts 14:22…to enter the Kingdom of God, we must endure many hardships.

1 Corinthians 10:13 So far you have faced no trial beyond human endurance; God keeps faith and will not let you be tested beyond your powers, but when the test comes, He will at the same time provide a way out and so enable you to endure it.

2 Timothy 3:12 Persecution and trials will indeed come to everyone who wants to live a godly life, as a follower of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 10:36 Endurance and perseverance is required in order to do God’s will and to win what He has promised.

1 Peter 4:12-19 Friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which has come to test you, for the time has come for the judgement to begin and it begins with God’s own household. So if you suffer according to His will, you must continue to trust Him while still doing good and your Maker will not fail you.

James 1:2-3 & 12 My friends whenever you have to face all sorts of trials, count yourself supremely happy in the knowledge that such testing of your faith makes for strength to endure. Happy is the person who stands up to trial! Having passed the test, you will receive in reward the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him. Ref: REB, NIV.

Everyone will be tested, some in the past by persecution and some living in modern countries, by temptation. But when the great test by fiery ordeal comes, as Luke 21:34-36 says: Be alert, for that Day will come suddenly, like a trap, upon everyone the whole world over. Pray for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming.

What the Apostles are telling us is throughout this age, there will be persecution and trials for God’s people, but when the time for the judgement begins, that is: the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, then endurance and fortitude will be required along with an unswerving faith and trust in His protection. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +

Is it possible that there are more trials than those in Revelation? I think so. For example, Israel has already had some trials.

Heb 11:36,

And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
​

Look at the context of 2 Tim 3;12. Paul was talking about trials he has already endured and says we will also face trials as a Christian but there is no indication that these have anything to do with Revelation. I think 1 Cor 10:13 is basically the same.

It doesn't seem at all reasonable to think that the only trials in the scriptures are found in Revelation. Lot's of folks had trials in both the OT and NT.

And what about the two verses I quoted that say Christians are saved from the wrath to come? Are they not relevant?

The quotes from Jeremiah and Ecclesiastes are written to Israel, not the church. We must develop our doctrine by what God tells the church, not by what He tells Israel or Gentiles. We must go by the letters addressed to us, which are Paul's Epistles. Paul is the one to whom God revealed the mystery and that is what's happening today. Gotta stop acting on other people's mail and pay attention to the times when God spoke. He said quite different things to Israel and the Gentiles before Pentecost then He spoke to the church after Pentecost.

 

[The Light]

Everyone will be tested, some in the past by persecution and some living in modern countries, by temptation. But when the great test by fiery ordeal comes, as Luke 21:34-36 says: Be alert, for that Day will come suddenly, like a trap, upon everyone the whole world over. Pray for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming.

That's a mighty liberal interpretation you have there. Let's see what the Lord has to say.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I see nothing about praying for strength to pass safely through all that is coming. I see escaping ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass AND STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

[Keraz]

It doesn't seem at all reasonable to think that the only trials in the scriptures are found in Revelation

I am referring specifically to the the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the world.
Your view waters down the sudden and shocking event of the forthcoming Sixth Seal.

I see nothing about praying for strength to pass safely through all that is coming. I see escaping ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass AND STANDING BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert. praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming ...... Revised English Bible.
The REB translates that verse correctly for to say 'escape' is to contradict verse 35, which says; what is coming will affect everyone the whole world over.
We Christians will stand before the Son of Man, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9 and Jesus appears in Revelation 14:1 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10.

 

[Rich R]

I am referring specifically to the the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the world.
Your view waters down the sudden and shocking event of the forthcoming Sixth Seal.

Odd conclusion. All I said was that there is more than 1 trial in the Bible. How does that water down the events Israel will face in Revelation?

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert. praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming ...... Revised English Bible.
The REB translates that verse correctly for to say 'escape' is to contradict verse 35, which says; what is coming will affect everyone the whole world over.
We Christians will stand before the Son of Man, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9 and Jesus appears in Revelation 14:1 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10.

Why do you keep quoting verses written to Israel before Pentecost as though they were meant for you, while ignoring the verses written specifically to the church, to you, after Pentecost? Are you at all willing to consider the importance of understanding to whom God spoke and when He spoke? I can only tell that God's plan for the ages, i.e., the Bible, will make way more sense.

Who was Jesus talking to in Luke? Jesus said on more than one occasion that he came for Israel.

I quoted a couple of verses written to the church, that explicitly say we need not be concerned about the time Jesus was talking about. I also quoted a couple of other verses written to the church that we are saved from the wrath to come. That's precisely why we need not concern ourselves with what Jesus said Israel would endure in Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

No. This is not talking about the Second Coming. It is talking about the rapture where the Lord Himself comes for His bride, the Church. This is talking about 1 Thes 4.

I am not following Satan and angels loosed at the 6th trumpet. Where are you getting that from?

There is only one Second Coming, with God on the throne: the 6th Seal.

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The judgment of the great day is Revelation 9:1-2

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

The first woe is Satan allowed to free all those rebel angels waiting for near 6,000 years. They were still bound in the first century. No one has recorded they have been let loose to this point in history.

 

[Keraz]

Odd conclusion. All I said was that there is more than 1 trial in the Bible. How does that water down the events Israel will face in Revelation?

I Repeat: God's wrath against the whole world happens at the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.
It will be the great test of our faith.
The rest of God's wrath; the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, is directed against those who follow the 'beast; and have taken his mark.

Why do you keep quoting verses written to Israel before Pentecost as though they were meant for you, while ignoring the verses written specifically to the church, to you, after Pentecost?

Because there is no 'Church' separate from the true Israel.
There is only One people of God and all the rest are godless peoples. Including those who falsely call themselves 'Israel'.

Your belief of the Jewish State of Israel still having an inside track for God's favor, is wrong and not what the entire New Testament is about.

 

[The Light]

I am referring specifically to the the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the world.
Your view waters down the sudden and shocking event of the forthcoming Sixth Seal.

I'm just reading scripture. It says that we can excape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass....Not just the Day of the Lord. We can excape the false CHRISTS, the nations rising against nations, famines and pestilences...ALL THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS. We can also escape the Great Tribulation.

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert. praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming ...... Revised English Bible.
The REB translates that verse correctly for to say 'escape' is to contradict verse 35, which says; what is coming will affect everyone the whole world over.

This is not what the scripture says. It is a bad translation. That translation is not based on what the scripture says, but on what they THINK it must mean. This is what causes confusion and lack of understanding.

We Christians will stand before the Son of Man, when we go to live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9 and Jesus appears in Revelation 14:1 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10.

It's easy enough to prove what you are saying is incorrect. You are claiming that the throne is an earthly throne, but that cannot happen until after the 7th trumpet. Secondly we can see kings and priest before the throne in heaven in Rev 5.

Further, when we see the 144,000, we see that they are REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH and are standing before the throne in heaven.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

There are other examples, that could be posted, but it would not matter, no matter how clear the scripture is.

 

[Keraz]

There are other examples, that could be posted, but it would not matter, no matter how clear the scripture is.

Right; you won't believe how we must endure until the end until the end comes.
The fact that Luke 21:35-36 contradict each other in most translations, doesn't bother you and the many other deceived 'rapture' believers.

 

[The Light]

Right; you won't believe how we must endure until the end until the end comes.

Why would I believe that when we are clearly told that we CAN ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.........AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. If you want to hang around, that's up to you. Our instructions are to WATCH and be ready. As always, God provides a way of escape for His people.

The fact that Luke 21:35-36 contradict each other in most translations, doesn't bother you and the many other deceived 'rapture' believers.

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I don't see any contradiction. It will come as a snare on all of them that dwell on the fact of the earth. The Church will already be gone before the seals are opened so we will not be dwelling on the face of the earth when these events occur. What's the contradiction?

 

[Rich R]

I Repeat: God's wrath against the whole world happens at the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.
It will be the great test of our faith.
The rest of God's wrath; the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, is directed against those who follow the 'beast; and have taken his mark.

Because there is no 'Church' separate from the true Israel.
There is only One people of God and all the rest are godless peoples. Including those who falsely call themselves 'Israel'.

Your belief of the Jewish State of Israel still having an inside track for God's favor, is wrong and not what the entire New Testament is about.

I don't think we're talking the same language here.

What do you mean by, "the Jewish State of Israel?" Not even knowing what that is, I would hardly have an inside track on it.

 

[The Light]

There is only one Second Coming, with God on the throne: the 6th Seal.

I have no problem with that. When the Lord Himself comes for His bride, it will be a secret coming so I wouldn't call that the second coming. He does come at the 6th seal when he gathers the elect from heaven and earth. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels. Then He comes to the earth at the 7th trumpet, when the kingdoms of this earth are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The judgment of the great day is Revelation 9:1-2

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

The first woe is Satan allowed to free all those rebel angels waiting for near 6,000 years. They were still bound in the first century. No one has recorded they have been let loose to this point in history.

I don't believe you are correct. Those are not angels being unchained, they are locusts coming out of the pit.

Rev 9
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Are you sure those angels are going to be released? Maybe they are chained until the day of judgment, and are judged.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no problem with that. When the Lord Himself comes for His bride, it will be a secret coming so I wouldn't call that the second coming. He does come at the 6th seal when he gathers the elect from heaven and earth. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels. Then He comes to the earth at the 7th trumpet, when the kingdoms of this earth are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Yet you are totally dismissing Matthew 13, when Jesus as King is personally on earth along with the angels. You are dismissing that at the 6th Seal Jesus sets up His throne and Temple in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31. You are totally dismissing Zechariah 14 when Jesus saves Jerusalem by stepping onto the Mount of Olives. This all happens at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus only comes to earth once with the angels, the 6th Seal. If Armageddon happens, it may not, then Jesus returns with the sheep and wheat of the Trumpets and Thunders. If the 7th Trumpet is not interrupted, then Satan will not get 42 months, and there will be no Armageddon. The sheep and wheat start the Millennium Kingdom on earth when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

I don't believe you are correct. Those are not angels being unchained, they are locusts coming out of the pit.

Rev 9
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Are you sure those angels are going to be released? Maybe they are chained until the day of judgment, and are judged.

Normal angels can appear as humans. These are rebel angels, and they don't appear as super heroes to save us from themselves. They appear as evil super villains to destroy the earth, and eventually attack heaven itself by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

So if you think these rebel angels who left their first estate will return to being normal angels obedient to God, you are dead wrong. John describes them as they exit the pit. And they are going to be really angry after being bound for thousands of years, not merciful. That is why they are the first woe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's called discernment, brother, and in this case it isn't difficult.

You're apparently lacking discernment then.

I'm not "holier than you."

You were acting like it.

Yes, we all have the same problems. You just seem stuck in a problem right now because I hear a constant ring of, "I can't take it any more."

LOL. That was only in regards to talking about what the early church fathers believed. That topic isn't of great interest to me, so it gets old to me fairly quickly.

So I just want you to know these things aren't very deep with me, emotionally. We differ on Amil vs Premil. Big deal! It doesn't take us out of God's grace. And it shouldn't cause us to fall out with one another. If you feel fine today, great. If a person falls into a hole, he needs someone else to pull him out. I welcome that from you when I'm in the pit!

I wasn't in the pit at all, man. That's why I'm saying you shouldn't pretend as if you know me. You don't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

mmm. Has the blindness reached the point that you don't understand the difference between the Lord Himself coming for His bride and the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? Seems pretty cut and dried.

Where is this supposed difference taught in scripture? Don't just make claims without backing them up. That isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

How do you interpret this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When will Jesus "come to be glorified in his saints"? When He comes for His bride, right? And when will He send his angels to gather the elect? When He is "revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance" on His enemies, right? This passage indicates that both of those things will happen on the same day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you plan on dying before the Second Coming? If so that phrase does not even describe you.

That phrase is for those alive at the Second Coming.

You're saying that the dead being raised incorruptible in 1 Cor 15:52 refers to "those alive at the Second Coming". Do you know what the words "dead" and "alive" mean? Are you aware that those words are not synonyms?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would guess that God had some reason for using different words. I should point out that the Greek words for "rising" and "resurrection" are related but not identical, for whatever that's worth.

Paul is clearly referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1 Thess 4:14-17. Are you denying that? If not, then what is the reason for pointing out the differences in what words are used to describe that? That seems completely pointless.

I don't think you and I are that far apart.

I disagree. We clearly are very far apart in our end times beliefs.

I think our difference lies in the timing of events.

And we're very far apart on that. But, we are also very far apart in terms of our perspectives. Your perspective is very Israel-centric while my view focuses on Jesus and His church.

 

[Keraz]

As always, God provides a way of escape for His people.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told people will escape God's wrath by being removed from the earth. We are told to call upon His Name; Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21, and that we must endure untill the end; Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:13, Revelation 13:10, and that He will protect us. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91:1-16

I don't see any contradiction. It will come as a snare on all of them that dwell on the fact of the earth. The Church will already be gone before the seals are opened so we will not be dwelling on the face of the earth when these events occur. What's the contradiction?

The typical off the cuff, assertive answer from one locked into the false and unscriptural idea of the 'rapture to heaven'.
I provide scriptural support for my beliefs, you fail to do that, and to say a rapture will happen before the Seals are opened, is arrant nonsense.

My Bible, translated from many sources by a team of expert linguists; DOES say - pass safely through all that is coming....Luke 21:36
That statement does fit with all the other prophesies about the Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath. A 'rapture' does not.

I don't think we're talking the same language here.

What do you mean by, "the Jewish State of Israel?" Not even knowing what that is, I would hardly have an inside track on it.

I understand you, what's your problem with me?
However statements as above, show our beliefs to be irreconcilable. It seems that you simply cannot see the many prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 22:14, romans 9:27, +