Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls
- Thread starter David Boyer
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so you agree that the 4th and 5th rider of the apocalypse are referenced in relation to North and South America. Good, we are making progress.
Integrate that into your argument. Show that he stands here and sees from this perspective, and show how he later stands there, and sees from that perspective.
And laziness is making someone else do the work.
Revelation 1:10 KJV
10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Doesn't give a location.
Revelation 2:1 KJV
1) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Doesn't give a location.
Revelation 7:1 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Does not give a location. John is seeing in his vision.
Revelation 7:9 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Does not give a location.
I'm not going to go through the rest.
There is a pattern to the vision, that John is shown things on the earth, and then in the heaven, and then on the earth, and then in heaven.
What particular passages do you see that show John seeing such and such from the perspectives of the Americas, and then seeing the same things from the perspectives of Isreal?
Not just a list of references, but quote the passages. That's not for me, it's for you.
Much love!
Lets see
1.. Patmos
2.. should be 4:1 ... heaven
3.. earth
4-100... yo-yo-ing between earth and heaven
You see a pattern, and I agree. You see a stationary John, while I see a John transported to the heart of the action. How else could he hear what is said (either in heaven or on earth)?
Americas reference in the 4th and 5th horseman passages (4th seal)
Israel... Chapter 10+11 would indicate Israel was the basis for the Trumpets as Chapter 13-15 would indicate the Bowls are for those deserving of Gods wrath.
Quoting the passages is for you. I do everything on paper so I am going through the Bible every time I type any comment about this subject.
What view????
You sound like the apostles saying "show me the Father".
Have you not read what I have written? If you are confused on an issue, bring it to my attention with particular questions and I will answer.
I really want to know what you don't get.
Can you not see that my way of reading Revelation is also a valid perspective?
Do you need your view to be right so badly that you block out all other voices?
Please don't do that. Consider the what if scenario. What if this redneck farmer is right?
I do consider that I might be wrong. Part of an honest discussion would be entertaining another viewpoint and examining the validity.
Think about this for a while and let it simmer. Maybe I will be proven wrong, or you will be, or we both will.
IF you really want to know . . .
Yes, I've examined this from a number of different perspectives, having studied this for nearly 40 years, and debated very actively for over 20 years.
No, I don't believe it is a valid perspective, as it requires overlooking distinctives that we should accept as is.
No, I don't need a certain view to be right.
Paul wrote about us reaching unity in the knowledge and faith of the Son of God. Question: Will we achieve unity of knowledge by holding to the specificity of the text? Will unity be achieved as we re-interpret the clear wording into something else? I think that when people start doing that, everyone ends up with their own ideas.
However, if we hold to the exact wording, a darkened moon and a blood red moon are not the same, and a great earthquake, and the greatest of all earthquakes again are not the same. And a 1/3 of the sea and all the sea are not the same.
When you say they are the same, and I say they are not, how to determine which is correct? My answer, quote the passage, believe what it says.
Much love!
Taken
Well-Known Member
Hi David, welcome to the forum.
Harmonized, the seals, trumps & and bowls? Not sure your meaning, but have studied.
In brief;
Do believe the 21 events begin with specific intent and increase in severity.
Intent of a punishment, via Gods Tribulation, expressed via Gods Wrath, Because of Gods Anger...(much like the first Great Trib’s same pattern).
And the same as the first Great Trib, few were lifted up above the face of the earth...Earth, Anti-God, ie The target of God judgements.
* Before the Latter Day Trib Begins. The saved IN Christ the Lord, risen up above the face of the earth.
* IN Christ, not subject to WRATH. (1 Thes 5:9)
* Because, already delivered From Wrath to come. (1 Thes 1:10)
* Nothing new under the sun. What was shall be again.
The Latter Days Trib;
1) Begins with the Lambs Wrath...effected via opening of the Seals.
* what is the Lamb angry about? Rejection.
** Wrath of the Lamb...Rev 6:16
What does Scripture say is the Work of God...?
To believe on the one God Sent. (John 6:29)
2) The Trumps...a combination...God saving faithful Israel fulfilling His promise.
Two witnesses in Jerusalem...144,000 Israel Tribesmen and a lamb...
Hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ from their own kinsmen.
* Warnings of Woes (because of the Devil) ... Rev 8.
2) Also during the Trumps...who ELSE is being Rejected, and getting Angry, and effecting the power of his Wrath upon the People?
The Devil. Thus the Devil’s Wrath.
** Devils Wrath...Rev 12:12
* Separating the Divided...Living, Dead, With God, Without God...
The Living still on Earth, Without God (ie Against God);
* The Bowls/vials begin being poured out.
Earth Inhabitants Against/ Rejecting God; Suffer Gods Wrath, exponentially increased.
** Gods Wrath...Rev 16:1
Glory to God,
Taken
I believe you are the one reading into Revelation that which is not there.
You don't believe that an earthquake is felt differently if different locations?
You don't believe that a poison sea would have different concentrations at different locations? Check a ocean salinity map.
If this is how you debate I don't know how you could have dealt with the losses over 20 years.
I think you are very invested in your view being right. I would love to change my viewpoint, but I follow the text.
Who mentioned a blood moon???? I would think that a darkened moon, sun and stars would be an atmospheric event.
I believe Rev 22:18+19 and not adding my own views or discarding Revelation passages for passages in other prophecies. (i have thoughts on Revelation events, but please change my mind, which you haven't done)
18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
That's not what I said. That has nothing to do with what I said.
I'll go back to what I said before, nevermind.
Much love!
Purpose of Tribulation is not punishment. Rather to try/test those dwelling on the earth. Common false starting premise, but not fatal to the argument.
Rev 3:10
10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Pre-trib rapture is not in Revelation. We are called to endure/overcome the tribulation. Moses went through the flood, Israel went through the plagues of Egypt. They where not removed from the suffering, but a way was made for them through the trials.
Wrath of the Lamb is as seen from the ones hiding from the earthquake and falling stars. We are not told Jesus' perspective at this point.
Trumps belong to Israel seems not to be in doubt, but my OP was about the timing. Sequential vs simultaneous.
Bowls/vials against those who rise against Gods bride. Yep. Tracks with what I am saying. Except I think there could be much more overlap of events than is normally taught.
It actually encapsulates what you said rather nicely. You might not see it that way from your perspective, but from mine I summarised your arguments and mocked them in one go. I only mock them because I see them a silly and not worthy of serious effort. You of course are free to take your arguments as seriously as you desire.
Don't expect me to be impressed that you twist what I say for the purpose of mocking it.
I suggest you read the Word, and believe what it says. Pay close attention to the specific wording, and just hold to what it says.
That's the best I can offer you at this time, I think, unless you were to display a different attitude, and a different style.
Much love!
Hello,
My two cents worth is that what John has recorded in the Book of Revelation is the order in which he was shown what is to come. It is like he has recorded what he has seen on a tapestry where each of the revelations that he sees he has placed on a different place on that tapestry.
The question that we must wrestle with is in what order was John shown the Seal, trumpet and the Bowl Judgements in? For me the seven Bowl Judgements were revealed to John in the reverse order of their fulfilment. In fact I would go so far as suggesting the the Seventh Bowl Judgement has already been fulfilled, with the Sixth Bowl Judgement presently unfolding before us during this present time.
I also see similarities in the imagery between the Seal, Trumpet and the Bowl judgements, such that they all mesh together to form a matrix of events that play out to reveal God's purposes during the Millennium Age, i.e. the Seventh Age.
What I have noticed in the Book of Revelation is that each chapter deals with a specific topic or entity. For example Rev. 19 deals predominately with Christ, while Rev. 20 can be associated with the events surrounding Satan during the Seventh Age.
I have also noticed that the timeline in the Book of Revelation is not linear, and like a good novel, the story jumps back and forth in time as the various described events unfold. Sometimes, the described events are revealed in the order that they were revealed to and recorded by John. As such I have found that to understand the Book of Revelation, I have to understand the imagery. Where John describes "seismos," in the Greek, events our understanding should be "turmoil," and not "earthquakes." Where John is describing ὄρη (orē), in the Greek, in 17:19, he is not speaking about mountains, but rather he is speaking os the seven dominate religions that Satan is draped over.
From memory, in the OT, I think, God tells Israel that their high mountains will become like mere lowly hills during the Seventh Age.
We all need to read the Book of Revelation with refurbished eyes and refurbished ears so that we can hear God speaking through the Book of Revelation, otherwise, in our own strength we will be lead astray.
Shalom
My two cents worth is that what John has recorded in the Book of Revelation is the order in which he was shown what is to come. It is like he has recorded what he has seen on a tapestry where each of the revelations that he sees he has placed on a different place on that tapestry.
The question that we must wrestle with is in what order was John shown the Seal, trumpet and the Bowl Judgements in? For me the seven Bowl Judgements were revealed to John in the reverse order of their fulfilment. In fact I would go so far as suggesting the the Seventh Bowl Judgement has already been fulfilled, with the Sixth Bowl Judgement presently unfolding before us during this present time.
I also see similarities in the imagery between the Seal, Trumpet and the Bowl judgements, such that they all mesh together to form a matrix of events that play out to reveal God's purposes during the Millennium Age, i.e. the Seventh Age.
What I have noticed in the Book of Revelation is that each chapter deals with a specific topic or entity. For example Rev. 19 deals predominately with Christ, while Rev. 20 can be associated with the events surrounding Satan during the Seventh Age.
I have also noticed that the timeline in the Book of Revelation is not linear, and like a good novel, the story jumps back and forth in time as the various described events unfold. Sometimes, the described events are revealed in the order that they were revealed to and recorded by John. As such I have found that to understand the Book of Revelation, I have to understand the imagery. Where John describes "seismos," in the Greek, events our understanding should be "turmoil," and not "earthquakes." Where John is describing ὄρη (orē), in the Greek, in 17:19, he is not speaking about mountains, but rather he is speaking os the seven dominate religions that Satan is draped over.
From memory, in the OT, I think, God tells Israel that their high mountains will become like mere lowly hills during the Seventh Age.
We all need to read the Book of Revelation with refurbished eyes and refurbished ears so that we can hear God speaking through the Book of Revelation, otherwise, in our own strength we will be lead astray.
Shalom
That's the exact same advise I would give to you and everyone.
I'll continue to do just that. My attitude and style are part of my God given nature, why would I change that?
If you can prove me wrong I will change my story, but the key word is prove. You haven't done that so Best of luck.
I also really don't believe your "Much love" is sincere. But that is your style and I would never ask you to change that.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing your perspective. In part, do not agree.
* Earthy, (men against men) Tribulations, distress, trials, testing, judgements, punishments are always difficult....DURING such things...yet designed for a greater good.
* Heavenly sent Tribulations, distress, trials, testing, judgements, punishment are also difficult...DURING such things...yet also designed for a greater good.
Express Expression of “the Great Tribulation”...applies to TWO...the first Flood and the prophecies of the last...and each applies to Being Expressly Send Down from Heaven, By Gods command and control; Expressly UPON the Earth and it’s Inhabitants....to CAUSE Great Tribulation...AND CAUSE an Awaking....And CAUSE Destruction.
Glory to God,
Taken
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