Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

[David Boyer]

Hello,

My two cents worth is that what John has recorded in the Book of Revelation is the order in which he was shown what is to come. It is like he has recorded what he has seen on a tapestry where each of the revelations that he sees he has placed on a different place on that tapestry.

The question that we must wrestle with is in what order was John shown the Seal, trumpet and the Bowl Judgements in? For me the seven Bowl Judgements were revealed to John in the reverse order of their fulfilment. In fact I would go so far as suggesting the the Seventh Bowl Judgement has already been fulfilled, with the Sixth Bowl Judgement presently unfolding before us during this present time.

I also see similarities in the imagery between the Seal, Trumpet and the Bowl judgements, such that they all mesh together to form a matrix of events that play out to reveal God's purposes during the Millennium Age, i.e. the Seventh Age.

What I have noticed in the Book of Revelation is that each chapter deals with a specific topic or entity. For example Rev. 19 deals predominately with Christ, while Rev. 20 can be associated with the events surrounding Satan during the Seventh Age.

I have also noticed that the timeline in the Book of Revelation is not linear, and like a good novel, the story jumps back and forth in time as the various described events unfold. Sometimes, the described events are revealed in the order that they were revealed to and recorded by John. As such I have found that to understand the Book of Revelation, I have to understand the imagery. Where John describes "seismos," in the Greek, events our understanding should be "turmoil," and not "earthquakes." Where John is describing ὄρη (orē), in the Greek, in 17:19, he is not speaking about mountains, but rather he is speaking os the seven dominate religions that Satan is draped over.

From memory, in the OT, I think, God tells Israel that their high mountains will become like mere lowly hills during the Seventh Age.

We all need to read the Book of Revelation with refurbished eyes and refurbished ears so that we can hear God speaking through the Book of Revelation, otherwise, in our own strength we will be lead astray.

Shalom

Some interesting ideas in there. Are you post-mil? Sounds a bit post-mil. I can't really agree with that premise, but I digress.
Yes time does not necessarily flow linearly in Revelation. That is my view as well. Although I am not fully set in all of my ideas, they are reasonably taking more solid form as time grows shorter.

We will see on Sept 26/22. No not Rosh Hashanah, but the DART mission from NASA. If it goes like Bennu asteroid test, then we have many falling starts possible in the near future. And my money is on Xi Jingping dying sometime before Dec 31/22. Not much money, but maybe a few bucks.

There are my back of the envelope guesses for the major events for the remainder of this year.

 

[David Boyer]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. In part, do not agree.

* Earthy, (men against men) Tribulations, distress, trials, testing, judgements, punishments are always difficult....DURING such things...yet designed for a greater good.
* Heavenly sent Tribulations, distress, trials, testing, judgements, punishment are also difficult...DURING such things...yet also designed for a greater good.

Express Expression of “the Great Tribulation”...applies to TWO...the first Flood and the prophecies of the last...and each applies to Being Expressly Send Down from Heaven, By Gods command and control; Expressly UPON the Earth and it’s Inhabitants....to CAUSE Great Tribulation...AND CAUSE an Awaking....And CAUSE Destruction.

Glory to God,
Taken

None of that made sense.

 

[marks]

My attitude and style are part of my God given nature, why would I change that?

God given character =

1 Corinthians 13:1-8 KJV
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Galatians 5:22-24 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Peter 1:5-7 KJV
5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

This is what we should compare ourselves to for self-assessment.

Much love! A great desire to see you grow in the Lord, and to experience the full measure of His Spirit in a clear understanding of His Word.

 

[David Boyer]

God given character =

1 Corinthians 13:1-8 KJV
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Galatians 5:22-24 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Peter 1:5-7 KJV
5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

This is what we should compare ourselves to for self-assessment.

Much love! A great desire to see you grow in the Lord, and to experience the full measure of His Spirit in a clear understanding of His Word.

I always have that 1 Cor 13:1-8 in mind when doing charitable work, so no problem there.
Gal 5:22-24... see how longsuffering I am with you... I've been suffering long.
2 Pet 1:5-7 ... yeah, I'm on that spectrum.

 

[Taken]

I also really don't believe your "Much love" is sincere.

 

[Taken]

None of that made sense.

Okay.
Simply discovering, (You as a new member), your perspective and understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David Boyer]

Okay.
Simply discovering, (You as a new member), your perspective and understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

By rambling on with some gnostic verbage? Just ask a question. Keep it simple as I am a simple man. Thanks

 

[marks]

Revelation 9:20 KJV
20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

The effects of the sounding of the trumpets are called "plagues".

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The bowls are called the "seven last plagues", therefore, the trumpets are former, and the bowls are latter. The bowls are the last.

Much love!

 

[marks]

By rambling on with some gnostic verbage? Just ask a question. Keep it simple as I am a simple man. Thanks

Maybe if you don't understand, you asking a question might be more appropriate than derision.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

...Keep it simple as I am a simple man...

Since you are a simple man why are you having trouble with the simplicity of Revelation? Seven seals are opened. Within the 7th seal seven trumpets are blown. Within the 7th trumpet seven vials are poured out. That is the SIMPLE way to understand this book. It is not some convoluted hodge-podge. At the same time there are some parenthetical passages. But those should not detract from the simplicity.

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 9:20 KJV
20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

The effects of the sounding of the trumpets are called "plagues".

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The bowls are called the "seven last plagues", therefore, the trumpets are former, and the bowls are latter. The bowls are the last.

Much love!

Last/Prior these could be in the order that John saw... No necessarily the order of nonoccurence.

 

[David Boyer]

Since you are a simple man why are you having trouble with the simplicity of Revelation? Seven seals are opened. Within the 7th seal seven trumpets are blown. Within the 7th trumpet seven vials are poured out. That is the SIMPLE way to understand this book. It is not some convoluted hodge-podge. At the same time there are some parenthetical passages. But those should not detract from the simplicity.

I am reading it simply. Where is "within the 7 trumpet the vials are poured"?
The supposed parenthetical may turn out to be quite intrinsic.
Do you think the seals are opened and what is mentioned (5 horsemen, martyrs, earthquake and silence) happen in sequential order?
A scroll can't be opened till all seals are broke, so that would mean that all seal events happen in quick succession if not simultaneously.

That is simple logic... How long between trumpet blasts usually???? Another simultaneous event package.
Are bowls poured out like honey or water? Slow or quick?

So simple is sometimes convoluted.

 

[marks]

Last/Prior these could be in the order that John saw... No necessarily the order of nonoccurence.

John addresses that:

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

These are just what it says, the seven "last" plagues.



Eschatas, the last. In them is "finished" the wrath of God.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

John addresses that:

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

These are just what it says, the seven "last" plagues.

View attachment 25553

Eschatas, the last. In them is "finished" the wrath of God.

Much love!

Last, as in last shown... yes.

 

[marks]

A scroll can't be opened till all seals are broke, so that would mean that all seal events happen in quick succession if not simultaneously.

Revelation 6:1-5 KJV
1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

With each opened seal, another horse rides out. The events that are associated to the seals being opened are not associated with the entire scroll being opened.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Last, as in last shown... yes.

No, that completes God's wrath. There is both sequences, "the last", and there is also the substance, "completes God's wrath".

And again, the detail is in the wording,

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

"last shown" appears no where, nor is there any wording to that effect. These are the seven last plagues.

"We went to see a triple-feature last night. The first movie was "A Thief in the Night", and the last movie was "The Image of the Beast".

We read the Bible in the normal ways we understand language.

(Extra credit . . . what was the name of the 2nd movie?)

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 6:1-5 KJV
1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

With each opened seal, another horse rides out. The events that are associated to the seals being opened are not associated with the entire scroll being opened.

Much love!

Where does it say "they rode out"? They don't ride till all the seals are opened, as I see it.

 

[David Boyer]

No, that completes God's wrath. There is both sequences, "the last", and there is also the substance, "completes God's wrath".

And again, the detail is in the wording,

Revelation 15:1 KJV
1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

"last shown" appears no where, nor is there any wording to that effect. These are the seven last plagues.

"We went to see a triple-feature last night. The first movie was "A Thief in the Night", and the last movie was "The Image of the Beast".

We read the Bible in the normal ways we understand language.

(Extra credit . . . what was the name of the 2nd movie?)

Much love!

I have first goats, second chickens and last cows.
In what order did I acquire these animals? The answer not the order in which you read that.
And I said last as in last shown, not last shown as is written. Maybe a remedial English lesson is in your future.

 

[Taken]

By rambling on with some gnostic verbage?

Okay, so according to you, Scriptural posting is “gnostic verbiage”.

Just ask a question.

No need.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

I have first goats, second chickens and last cows.

My example was parallel, yours is not. You are positing a different kind of word construction.

Much love!