Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

[David Boyer]

There are no martyred in the "Revelation time period". That is your fabrication.

Enoch/Elijah were translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Do you think at the rapture the redeemed are killed and then resurrected, or changed/translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

You want it to refer to only souls slain in the first 4 Seals? Where does Revelation 6:1-8 claim people will be martyred any where in the first 4 Seals?

When exactly do you even think the Seals are being opened? What exactly do you mean by this "Revelation period"?

So you concede the "earth" translation issue? We have moved on?
I said martyrdom fits the narrative. So yes it is from my imagination not the text. I know that and said as much. imo = in my opinion

I can't make hide nor hair out of your version of the rapture. Everyone must be killed before rapture?
How do you define a martyr? Maybe your definitions are what is giving you some trouble.
Where if Rev 6:1-8 are people martyred? It sure looks like that 4th horse does some damage to the population. And since death is where the righteous go when killed... at least some would conceivably be martyrs. The 5th horse of Hell would be for the unrighteous killed.

I think the horsemen are not riding yet, but they are saddled, bridled and chomping at the bit. IMO.

 

[Timtofly]

You appear to be misrepresenting my arguments. Is it out of confusion, stubbornness or wilful misrepresentation?
I haven't claimed anything about the phrase "not defiled by women". I am not claiming that women are the bad influence, and I don't believe they are.
Rev 14:4b "These were redeemed from among (humans), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." This is how I would read it in the Greek.
That's all I am saying. You are the one making a definitive statement. Also isn't being just lustful toward another, adultery. Matt 5:28 But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So how about the 144k being children? Too young to be "defiled"?

You are the one limiting the text. I just point out your hypocrisy. As for me being sexist... I'm not the one saying the women defile men, just reading the text you provided as your proof.

Except you gave a long list of defilement, as if part of a non existent argument.

Why not today's adolescent males? Saturated with "spiritual type video" games, seems like they are prepared for the locust army from the pit.

Matthew 19:14

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Timtofly]

You said ..." over the fourth part of the earth (the souls of mankind)," but that is not how the word "earth" is in Greek... the original language. Earth means land.

1093 ge ghay
contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the
solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants
in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

Power was given to the horsemen over a specific geographical area (1/4 of the earth) not the entire earth to effect 1/4 of the population.
You don't seem to grasp the difference.
Back to school with you. Take the chip off your shoulder... take a deep breath... relax... and reread.

Pretty sure earth is about the only place to find people to kill.

 

[David Boyer]

Pretty sure earth is about the only place to find people to kill.

Are you sure you are okay?
Do I need to call someone to check on you?

You are the one who keeps bringing up land going to hell, and the like.

Why not today's adolescent males? Saturated with "spiritual type video" games, seems like they are prepared for the locust army from the pit.

Do you know and adolescent males like what you describe?
Have you looked up the Greek and now recognise that the word is gender neutral?
Remember I asked you not to turn this into a fight. And I am only correcting your misuse of the Bible. Get better at handling the Word, please.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you sure you are okay?
Do I need to call someone to check on you?

You are the one who keeps bringing up land going to hell, and the like.

Do you know and adolescent males like what you describe?
Have you looked up the Greek and now recognise that the word is gender neutral?
Remember I asked you not to turn this into a fight. And I am only correcting your misuse of the Bible. Get better at handling the Word, please.

I handle the Word ok. Was it your opinion that implied feminine should be considered as you are stuck on the word, servants?

 

[David Boyer]

I handle the Word ok. Was it your opinion that implied feminine should be considered as you are stuck on the word, servants?

What word servants? I don't think I ever mentioned the word servants.
Were are you cumming up with these rebuttal questions?

You say that the 144k have to be men because Rev 14:4, correct?
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

You see in the above the word that says "men"... that word is better translated as people/mankind/humans. It is a gender neutral word.
I'm not saying anything should be considered. I am saying your proof text doesn't state what you think it does.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but that you might be using an incomplete defence of your position.
Your logic has a flaw at the very base of the argument because you haven't looked at the nuances of translator bias.

 

[Timtofly]

What word servants? I don't think I ever mentioned the word servants.
Were are you cumming up with these rebuttal questions?

You say that the 144k have to be men because Rev 14:4, correct?
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

You see in the above the word that says "men"... that word is better translated as people/mankind/humans. It is a gender neutral word.
I'm not saying anything should be considered. I am saying your proof text doesn't state what you think it does.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but that you might be using an incomplete defence of your position.
Your logic has a flaw at the very base of the argument because you haven't looked at the nuances of translator bias.

I was quoting from Revelation 7:3

"From among men" is a separate point than "these are they". I have no "proof text". I am taking into consideration the whole of Scripture from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The 25% probably doesn't reference an amount of people killed. power was given to the horsemen over 1/4 of the earth. If that 1/4 of the earth includes China (for example) the percentage of persons killed would be much higher than 25%. Why is this so hard to understand. 1/4 of the landmass is turned over to the horsemen... if that 1/4 is Antarctica and the Sahara then almost nobody gets killed.

"After our resurrection"???? When??? Where????
So you think there is a resurrection of the Church and then a Rapture of the Church?
And you think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Okay...

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

1. You can't discern the 1/4 does not mean an area of the earth, the physical earth (land)? Can you kill dirt, rocks, a land mass with a sword, hunger, with death? No, it is 1/4 of the population. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit for discernment, if you surely have received the Holy Spirit. Seek scholarly commentary for more knowledgeable insight, or ask your Pastor.

2. THE RESURRECTION IS THE RAPTURE. This is when we are transformed, given new bodies.

 

[David Boyer]

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

1. You can't discern the 1/4 does not mean an area of the earth, the physical earth (land)? Can you kill dirt, rocks, a land mass with a sword, hunger, with death? No, it is 1/4 of the population. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit for discernment, if you surely have received the Holy Spirit. Seek scholarly commentary for more knowledgeable insight, or ask your Pastor.

2. THE RESURRECTION IS THE RAPTURE. This is when we are transformed, given new bodies.

Power was given to Hitler over Germany... he killed with starvation and the sword.
Power was given to Stalin over Russia... he killed with starvation and the sword.
Power was given to Mao over China... he killed with starvation and the sword.

Are the above statements valid English ways of stating what happened through history? Did Hitler, Stalin or Mao kill the land or the people?
Why can you not allow for a slightly different reading? Why are you so fixated on this? What literary idolatry do you have to only one way to read a passage?

 

[Heart2Soul]

So you concede the "earth" translation issue? We have moved on?
I said martyrdom fits the narrative. So yes it is from my imagination not the text. I know that and said as much. imo = in my opinion

I can't make hide nor hair out of your version of the rapture. Everyone must be killed before rapture?
How do you define a martyr? Maybe your definitions are what is giving you some trouble.
Where if Rev 6:1-8 are people martyred? It sure looks like that 4th horse does some damage to the population. And since death is where the righteous go when killed... at least some would conceivably be martyrs. The 5th horse of Hell would be for the unrighteous killed.

I think the horsemen are not riding yet, but they are saddled, bridled and chomping at the bit. IMO.

I had a vision a year or 2 ago and I saw the sky full of big fluffy clouds and the bottom of the clouds were dark...like a shadow...or how a cloud would look when it was fixing to rain soon....everyone could see the clouds easily...but on top of the clouds....wow...were thousands of Angels sitting on white horses, they had their armor on for battle, they each had their swords drawn and was holding them in front with the sword tip pointing up....they were so beautiful and magnificent to look upon...all their armor shined like pure gold and they were waiting for God to give the command.
And that was the end of it....so as soon as God gives the command the battle begins.

 

[David Boyer]

I had a vision a year or 2 ago and I saw the sky full of big fluffy clouds and the bottom of the clouds were dark...like a shadow...or how a cloud would look when it was fixing to rain soon....everyone could see the clouds easily...but on top of the clouds....wow...were thousands of Angels sitting on white horses, they had their armor on for battle, they each had their swords drawn and was holding them in front with the sword tip pointing up....they were so beautiful and magnificent to look upon...all their armor shined like pure gold and they were waiting for God to give the command.
And that was the end of it....so as soon as God gives the command the battle begins.

Yep.
But are we not told to be aware of the times... "He who has an ear.." kind of thing?

But yes. Any time the battle can start in my opinion. I await Sept 26/22 with great hopes and fears. When DART hits. Also if Xi dies before Dec 31/22.

 

[David Boyer]

I was quoting from Revelation 7:3

"From among men" is a separate point than "these are they". I have no "proof text". I am taking into consideration the whole of Scripture from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

Same thing with Rev 7:3. Servant is gender neutral.

 

[Timtofly]

Same thing with Rev 7:3. Servant is gender neutral.

That is what I posted.

You have to take the whole Bible as context. Not just your opinion on a few Greek word's gender identification.

Is the Lamb feminine as a neuter gender in the Greek or do we go by context? The words one hundred forty four thousand are feminine. How literal do you want? Are all these 144k female not defiled by other females? How literal do you want to take the Greek language to task?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Dd we e add czar

Yep.
But are we not told to be aware of the times... "He who has an ear.." kind of thing?

But yes. Any time the battle can start in my opinion. I await Sept 26/22 with great hopes and fears. When DART hits. Also if Xi dies before Dec 31/22.

I don't know...all I know is the Lord's Army is in place and ready...
At no time have I feared world events...He told me not to fear what I see or hear just keep my eyes on Him.
Nothing is new under the sun....same evil just more of it....same wars just more sophisticated weapons...same religious doctrines of men just more or them....
Nothing new...some prophecies have even occurred more than once...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Power was given to Hitler over Germany... he killed with starvation and the sword.
Power was given to Stalin over Russia... he killed with starvation and the sword.
Power was given to Mao over China... he killed with starvation and the sword.

Are the above statements valid English ways of stating what happened through history? Did Hitler, Stalin or Mao kill the land or the people?
Why can you not allow for a slightly different reading? Why are you so fixated on this? What literary idolatry do you have to only one way to read a passage?

At no other time in history has death come to 25 - over 50% of the population within a few years time. Even all wars combined in the 20th century amounted to 2 %. The black death estimates are uncertain, 50 million.
"Fixated ... literary idolatry"... lol. I do change my views when an educated scholar like MacArthur, Sproul or my Pastor, Zac Nazzarian can persuade me otherwise.

 

[David Boyer]

That is what I posted.

You have to take the whole Bible as context. Not just your opinion on a few Greek word's gender identification.

Is the Lamb feminine as a neuter gender in the Greek or do we go by context? The words one hundred forty four thousand are feminine. How literal do you want? Are all these 144k female not defiled by other females? How literal do you want to take the Greek language to task?

Finally you are asking some good questions... but why ask me?
Ask these questions of your own theories.
You are the one making definitive statements. Back them up or admit you don't really have a basis for them other than your own bias and prejudice.

 

[David Boyer]

At no other time in history has death come to 25 - over 50% of the population within a few years time. Even all wars combined in the 20th century amounted to 2 %. The black death estimates are uncertain, 50 million.
"Fixated ... literary idolatry"... lol. I do change my views when an educated scholar like MacArthur, Sproul or my Pastor, Zac Nazzarian can persuade me otherwise.

Again you misunderstand my arguments. My last post on this was about language structure not severity of casualty reports. Your phrase "come to 25 - over 50% of the population" makes very little sense.

And you allow others to change your mind for you. I have to be convinced by logical argumentation. The source of the argument doesn't matter to me as much as the cohesive structure of the arguments and their underpinnings.

Don't appeal to authority, but rather to truth and logical thought.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Again you misunderstand my arguments. My last post on this was about language structure not severity of casualty reports. Your phrase "come to 25 - over 50% of the population" makes very little sense.

And you allow others to change your mind for you. I have to be convinced by logical argumentation. The source of the argument doesn't matter to me as much as the cohesive structure of the arguments and their underpinnings.

Don't appeal to authority, but rather to truth and logical thought.

We don't need a teacher when we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. He teaches us.
Are you born again?
But come on, when we just came to Christ, we went to church and learned from our Pastor and sometimes Elders, Bible study and secondary commentaries from learned theologians. We have all made mistakes and are corrected along the way - if we are humble enough to be corrected. In fact,, the Holy Spirit uses others to teach us, guide us and correct us. Iron sharpens iron.. Some are stubborn though and arrogant ... on their own self righteous know-it-all path.

 

[David Boyer]

We don't need a teacher when we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. He teaches us.
Are you born again?
But come on, when we just came to Christ, we went to church and learned from our Pastor and sometimes Elders, Bible study and secondary commentaries from learned theologians. We have all made mistakes and are corrected along the way - if we are humble enough to be corrected. In fact,, the Holy Spirit uses others to teach us, guide us and correct us. Iron sharpens iron.. Some are stubborn though and arrogant ... on their own self righteous know-it-all path.

I am challenging your ideas. Defend them better and you might win. If you are okay with correction... why won't you take mine?
If the pastor/teacher says something... no matter how learned they are, do you take it without question?
I have put forth a logical argument. Debate the argument. Instead of getting defensive, ask for clarification.

Born again, 43 years ago... but had a truly incredible rebirth experience in jail 2 years ago. Not anything worthy of a story, but until you have been to jail... well, I had no idea.

I was a borderline psychopath and now I have feelings and empathy. I cry for Gods goodness and mercy every time I think at any length about what He has done and what He promises to do. And as the time gets closer to the end... I see Revelation is actually very necessary for salvation for the last generation. If I am wrong about some of my ideas I want to know, and so far no one has offered up a better, simpler explanation than just reading Revelation. Don't interpret, just read and believe that neither John nor Jesus is lying about what is in Revelation. Any appeal to the OT or other NT books to say what John "really meant" goes against the text of Revelation, calls Jesus or John a fraud for not communicating clearly or truthfully... the only NT book to be commanded by Jesus to be written.

 

[Timtofly]

Finally you are asking some good questions... but why ask me?
Ask these questions of your own theories.
You are the one making definitive statements. Back them up or admit you don't really have a basis for them other than your own bias and prejudice.

I'm glad you think my bias is God's Word.