The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

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CrowCross

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First, Jesus explicitly establishes the chronology in Matthew 24:29-37. In verse 29, He says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Then, in verse 30, He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear. Only after stating this does He say in verse 37: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus does not place the days of Noah before the tribulation; He places the comparison after it.
This points to a pre-trib rapture.
In your post you said...
• The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated by God's total, final wrath during the early seals and trumpets, how is the global population still operating an economy stable enough to ship gifts to one another worldwide?
As you said "The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated".....BUT...Jesus speaks of a working social economic conditions prior to His coming in the days of Noah and Lot descriptions.

Luke 17:
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

This is not what the social economic conditions will look like at the end of the tribulation.
 

marks

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What are you talking about? We both know that scripture never contradicts itself. Scripture is very clear that salvation is NOT by works. It couldn't possibly be more clear. So, why would you think that Matthew 25:31-46 teaches otherwise? You need to put more effort into finding a way to keep scripture from contradicting itself instead of acting as if there is more than one way to be saved. There is not. Salvation is and always has been and always will be by grace through faith and NOT by works. Period. Paul did not indicate that there were any exceptions. The reason it's impossible for it to be any other way is because someone would have to be perfect in order to be saved by works. They'd have to be sinless. Someone who broke even one commandment of the law was guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10). No one can possibly earn their own salvation by works.


That is utter nonsense. Where do you come up with things like this? Scripture absolutely never teaches this. The term "the church" simply refers to those who belong to Jesus Christ. They belong to what Paul said has its foundation with the apostles and prophets and its cornerstone is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22). How can you think anyone who is saved by the blood of Christ is not part of the church with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. There's no other name by which anyone can be saved (Acts 4:12), so anyone saved by faith in Christ at any time, including during a future time of tribulation, becomes part of the church. Do you deny that people saved during the supposed future 7 year tribulation belong to Christ? They would have to belong to Christ because there's no other way to be saved (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Anyone who belongs to Christ is part of the church.


Here you go again with your rude comments. You complain about me, but you get in digs like this all the time. You have no self awareness. Scripture ALWAYS means what it says, but the scriptural text isn't always literal and straightforward. There are various genres of text in scripture, so to say that any given verse or passage means what it says is meaningless without identifying the genre of text being used and also without considering the context of the verse in question.


You're making this claim while doing literally nothing to back it up. How are you coming to this conclusion? There is no indication whatsoever that the sheep are not Christians. Yet, you are coming to that conclusion. Only those who belong to Christ will inherit eternal life. To think otherwise contradicts a great deal of scripture.


Yes, that's true, but what do you think that means? He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). He has mercy on those who repent of their sins and put their faith in Him (Luke 18:9-14).


There is nothing in scripture to support your speculation.


No, He does not! Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith and not by works. No one in history has been saved by their own works and no one ever will be. Someone would have to be sinless in order to do that. No one can atone for their own sins. No one can permanently cover their own sins. Only the blood of Christ could do that. His blood retroactively covered the sins of Old Testament believers and covers the sins of all New Testament believers, including anyone saved during any future tribulation period. There is no other way for anyone to be saved. You are sadly mistaken to think otherwise.


They were all saved the same way. By God's grace through faith. None were saved any other way. You are terribly mistaken here.


Not in relation to how someone obtains salvation/eternal life.


This is not taught anywhere in scripture! I guarantee that you cannot find one single verse to support this claim. Nowhere does scripture ever teach that salvation has ever or ever will be obtained apart from faith. You just do not understand that if salvation could be earned by obedience and works, someone would have to be sinless in order for that to be the case because they would have no means of having atonement for their sins if faith in Christ was not required. It's faith in Christ and His atoning blood that is required for salvation. No one can earn it through obedience and works. That is impossible.
This seems to be going awry again. My apologies for anything untoward I've said!

Much love!
 

marks

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BTW, if you are having a hard time following me here, keep in mind you are the one complaining that AI shouldn't be used for anything, not even as a tool for expressing something more coherently. I understand myself just fine.
I'm planning to come back to this later to actually respond, but just to say I think I'm following you just fine.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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All of that is involving the DOTL. The chronology is this. They are first saying peace and safety, Then like a thief in the night the DOTL comes upon them suddenly, thus the vials of wrath follow.
Paul said that the ones saying "peace and safety" "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Who do you think the ones saying "peace and safety" are?

That is involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, not during it. Some of you need to look at Revelation 13 again and point out anywhere in that chapter that it is involving what Revelation 16 is involving. The vials of wrath in Revelation 16 are post the 42 month reign, not during it. No one would be saying during the vials of wrath---who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with it?

The 42 month reign = great tribulation.

Great tribulation equals the little season mentioned in Revelation 6 pertaining to the 6th seal. The martyrs under the altar are to rest a little while longer until the little season on earth passes. Which then leads to the 6th seal when great tribulation on earth passes, the 6th seal involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, and involving the Revelation 16 vials of wrath.

The last 7 vials of wrath are in the 7th trumpet. If the vials of wrath parallel the trumpets, such as trumpet 1 and vial 1 paralleling, we end up with an absurdity. And it is this. The 42 month reign of the beast occurs during the 6th trumpet. That is when there is a mark to take or not take. Therefore, it is absurd that vial 1 gets poured out during trumpet 1. As of trumpet 1, no one has the mark yet. That doesn't happen until the time of the 6th trumpet.

I'm not saying it's your view that the trumpets and vials run in parallel. I simply don't know if it's your view or not. But if it is, I then showed an absurdity it causes.
I believe it's absurd to think that the trumpets and vials do not run in parallel because Jesus will return at the seventh, last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-54). If the trumpets and vials are not parallel then you would need all 7 vial events to somehow occur after Jesus returns at which point the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up to Him with those who are alive and remain. Is that what you think will happen? If so, that would require all 7 vials to relate directly to the timing of what is described in Revelation 19:11-21. Is that what you believe?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I did not see any case for a postrib rapture ANYWHERE in that copy paste article.
Nor did it do any damage to the pretrib doctrine.

In fact look at the weak "expose" of "well Jesus used the days of Noah a few verses down from where he said "after the trib", so pretribbers got it wrong."

Wow...how dumb.
It's dumb to think that Jesus comparing the time before His second coming to the days of Noah before the flood supports the pre-trib rapture theory. He was talking about the time before "the coming of the Son of Man" that He had just described as being the time when He comes and the elect are gathered AFTER the tribulation of those days. That clearly supports post-trib.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Lol.
Still no verses?
You are proving you will invoke unlimited deflections to avoid posting verse.
That makes 3 posts by you avoiding my request for a verse
Is it really that hard?
We can all see you ran from the request.

Awww is the pretribber being so mean and hard on you?
Poor little baby.
Cue more deflections.

Bottom line...no verses.
Postrib dilemma.

Carry on.
This is rich coming from you. You NEVER exegete any scripture and you are complaining about someone else not doing so? That is hilarious. And you FREQUENTLY whine about the way post-tribbers like me post. But, look at how you post with all your taunting and name calling. Stop being a hypocrite.
 

CrowCross

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If you are saying the only way you'd believe pre-trib is if you were programmed into it, I will most heartily disagree with you.

Much love!
Of course the amill-post tribbers weren't "pre-programmed".