Was Paul stating a church doctrine when he said that he did not permit a woman to teach in the churc

[Prentis]

I like what you said, Vengle. If men do not use this authority in love, if they are not simply in authority because it is the order of God, and seeking by it also to edify all, and help all grow in the Lord, then the men are using the law to their own gain, to their own glory... Not a good thing!

To Gypsy, good catch! I believe it to be authentic. BUT when it says women should stay silent, I think it's a case of bad translation (as verse 5 reveals!).

Here is the word translated 'keep silent'

G4601
σιγάω
sigaō
see-gah'-o
From G4602; to keep silent (transitive or intransitive): - keep close (secret, silence), hold peace.

Interestingly, the exact same word, sigao, is used twice before this is 1 Cor. 14.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

Keep silent? Or hold their peace, ie, not speak out of turn? I would say the second. Paul is calling for order, rather than making a rule that women CANT speak. This word is used for people who speak, and THEN hold their peace waiting for an answer. It means to speak wisely, when the time is fit. THIS is what Paul is telling women. A woman asking her husband is also fit so that their would not be all kinds of out of place questions, keep the meeting going in the right direction!

 

[Vengle]

I like what you said, Vengle. If men do not use this authority in love, if they are not simply in authority because it is the order of God, and seeking by it also to edify all, and help all grow in the Lord, then the men are using the law to their own gain, to their own glory... Not a good thing!

To Gypsy, good catch! I believe it to be authentic. BUT when it says women should stay silent, I think it's a case of bad translation (as verse 5 reveals!).

Here is the word translated 'keep silent'

G4601
σιγάω
sigaō
see-gah'-o
From G4602; to keep silent (transitive or intransitive): - keep close (secret, silence), hold peace.

Interestingly, the exact same word, sigao, is used twice before this is 1 Cor. 14.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

Keep silent? Or hold their peace, ie, not speak out of turn? I would say the second. Paul is calling for order, rather than making a rule that women CANT speak. This word is used for people who speak, and THEN hold their peace waiting for an answer. It means to speak wisely, when the time is fit. THIS is what Paul is telling women. A woman asking her husband is also fit so that their would not be all kinds of out of place questions, keep the meeting going in the right direction!

Yes You beat me to that point about the word's more accurate meaning. And when we examine the full context of that chapter we find that heavily supported.

You do have your reasoning ability sharpened quite well for your age. The biggest battle besides that, though, is the temptation toward bias in our views which can sometimes over-ride that gift of reasoning ability if we are not deliberate in our approach to everything so as not to allow it. And even then we will catch our self believing things that if we would apply our usual unbiased approach to examining we could have seen through sooner.

But in the finally we benefit from having to fight our way through to seeing the correct view of certain things. And I mean more than just benefiting from what we have come to see. It works humility and character out in us while we learn.

 

[Prentis]

Yes You beat me to that point about the word's more accurate meaning. And when we examine the full context of that chapter we find that heavily supported.

You do have your reasoning ability sharpened quite well for your age. The biggest battle besides that, though, is the temptation toward bias in our views which can sometimes over-ride that gift of reasoning ability if we are not deliberate in our approach to everything so as not to allow it. And even then we will catch our self believing things that if we would apply our usual unbiased approach to examining we could have seen through sooner.

But in the finally we benefit from having to fight our way through to seeing the correct view of certain things. And I mean more than just benefiting from what we have come to see. It works humility and character out in us while we learn.

Yes, that is true indeed!

The fighting and hacking away will also refine our character, if we let it, and are willing to learn!

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

:lol: I am not laughing at your sincerity. That I applaud. Such honesty is rare. And before we can weed out of us the things that need to be weeded out we need to become able to be that honest.

I am laughing because having read so many of your posts I know that I can expect that kind of honesty from you. You are a precious individual!

You have it right when you said, "he was possibly speaking from personal experience."

It goes a bit deeper than that, though. He was not only speaking from his personal experience (though he was that also as indicated by his saying to Timothy, "I suffer not") but he was speaking with regard to two other things; with regard to respecting the customs of the day and with regard to maintaining an orderly procession of things in the church whereby confusion could be kept to a minimum and learning for all would come easier, especially for those new to the faith.

I will pause there and wait for more comments before elaborating any further.

Yes, this! Nothing more nothing less. Evidence = The argument that is sure to ensue (as usual) while women vehemently argue and try to gain position that God never gave them.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, this! Nothing more nothing less. Evidence = The argument that is sure to ensue (as usual) while women vehemently argue and try to gain position that God never gave them.

You make a valid point there.

The thing to bear in mind is that Paul was speaking to the women in the general congregation as members. And of course as women came into the church yet having to mature and have their rough edges refined away by the bath in the water of God's word, these ones would be prone to exactly that.

That would not preclude an orderly appointment of a mature woman within the congregation. Preaching is not asserting authority, it is serving. But I don't think that mature Christian woman would even today be properly appointed to a position of authority over mature brothers. However, I am willing to admit I may be wrong on even that because I do know men and woman alike rule as co-kings and priests with Christ in that millennium to come. So they would certainly have that authority.

 

[Shirley]

dearest white knuckle. At no time in my life have I ever tried to knock down mans authority. I believe it is a mans responsibility to lead and to protect and I always teach women to respect their husbands leadership and to encourage it. To build his ego and encourage him to take the leadership. Taking leadership for a man does not at all take away from the woman. She builds him up and he lifts her up! The higher he gets the better she can do her job. I teach women to never ever hurt their mans ego, ever! If she usurps him then she digs a ditch for herself. In true Love we support each other in everything! The more mature a man is the more he trusts his wife and the better partner she can become. If a woman looks to see how a man treats his mother she will know what kind of man he is. No Christian man would ever be unkind or disrespectfull to his mother. He needs to stick up for himself in many cases though and a Godly woman would help him do that.
One time I stood up in church to thank God for saving me. The preacher gave the invitation so it was not disruptive. I gave short thanks to God for all he had done and how thankfull I was and a man who believed a woman should be absolutely silent sent me a spirit of shame. I felt it to the point of being hot and knew who sent it. I do not condemn this person b/c they believed literally what they were taught, but put your self in my shoes. Spiritually condemned for thanking God. The preacher gave me the go ahead and speak nod but a fellow brother somehow hurt me with the Spirit of shame. Just saying! I will always teach the young women to love and show respect above all! Their husbands reputation is their reputation as they are one. We must love and be patient!

 

[Vengle]

Amen Shirley.

We ought to not put our own bodies in a prison of shame.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

However, I give you your highest rating on your last comment. "

"

That statement is definitely free of ambiguity (thus clearly stated), gets straight to the point (as I am sure even Comm will agree), and is of appropriate length (a thousand words).

:huh: No vengle a smiley face throwing a rock at a melancholy face doesn't exactly speak to me :lol: is it that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ? Or casting the first stone ? I really haven't done anything to lead any of these girls on if anything I go out of my way to avoid them and all the drama. Or if you are trying to insult or correct me I can handle that I am a big boy just be blunt right back to me that is how I prefer to communicate.

 

[Vengle]

:huh: No vengle a smiley face throwing a rock at a melancholy face doesn't exactly speak to me :lol: is it that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ? Or casting the first stone ? I really haven't done anything to lead any of these girls on if anything I go out of my way to avoid them and all the drama. Or if you are trying to insult or correct me I can handle that I am a big boy just be blunt right back to me that is how I prefer to communicate.

The point it got straight to is for her, "Hey Comm, I don't like what you said!!!"

What do you expect of creatures you admitted knowing are emotional? :lol:

 

[Comm.Arnold]

The point it got straight to is for her, "Hey Comm, I don't like what you said!!!"

What do you expect of creatures you admitted knowing are emotional? :lol:

:lol: Oh my that is too funny. You know I tell it like I see it and that is the response I get, maybe I need to water it down eh brother ?

 

[Vengle]

:lol: Oh my that is too funny. You know I tell it like I see it and that is the response I get, maybe I need to water it down eh brother ?

I have gone through many a change in my thinking in this life and I would have given you advice at one time that unknown to myself was like telling you to hide what you are from yourself. The problem I see with that today is that only allows a person to forget and become no longer aware of who they are so that they can't deal with it.

Does that make sense? That is why I applaud outspokenness such as you practice. That honesty is refreshing even when it does reveal a few rough edges in us.

We live in a world where people are such good actors it becomes quite difficult to even know if we really know them.

I do not believe it is necessary for us to become so superficial to please God. In fact I believe it to be quite the opposite.

When we stop to think about it, our love for one another ought to rejoice in that freedom for each of us to be who we are. That would take much complication out of life for all of us. I believe that is why the scripture counsels us to openly confess our sins to one another. Instead of our being repulsed by the flaws in others those flaws should be proof to us that they struggle just as our self. And those flaws ought to be cause for even more love through the amplification of our compassion and fellow feeling.

All of us are a bit like Eve struggling with seeing that forbidden fruit and having it call to our desire.

It might be good for us men to put more effort into seeing the unprincipled fairer sex who has not (at least yet) given her self to the love of Christ, as that forbidden fruit and our self as Eve.

Hey, guess what? Woman are not so much different than ourselves after-all!!

 

[IanLC]

My view is coming from a man who has a female pastor but like other pastors in my organization are subject to the District Elder, District Bishop and General Administration and most of all God. My pastor preaches th gospel of Jesus Christ, preaches and lives out holiness. She is a woman of prayer and is full of knowledge, love, wisdom, patience, the Holy Spirit, and grace. She is also very humble which is odd because many women that I meet form my church and in my organization are not that humble. My pastor I can truely say is a Christ like person. I feel that Paul was addressing the issues given to him. I believe that the mandate was for that time and church. If a church is having a similar problem with women follow the direction of the Apostle Paul. I believe that God calls both men and women to ministry and the pastorate. I feel though that the office of a bishop is reserved soley for a man. But I will not stop nor hinder any woman or man from fulfilling their call and madate given to them by God. As long as you are saved, preaching Jesus lived, died, resurrected, ascended and holiness and living a sanctified life I have no problem with a woman or man in the pastoral position.

 

[THE Gypsy]

:huh: No vengle a smiley face throwing a rock at a melancholy face doesn't exactly speak to me :lol: is it that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ? Or casting the first stone ? I really haven't done anything to lead any of these girls on if anything I go out of my way to avoid them and all the drama. Or if you are trying to insult or correct me I can handle that I am a big boy just be blunt right back to me that is how I prefer to communicate.

How about none of the above? As far as being a "big boy"...That remains to be seen.

If there is indeed a "girl who sings" that is "always checking out [your] junk and squirming away as she is worshiping", that is not a problem with "women being a burden especially in the church"...THAT is a problem with an ineffective pastor that doesn't have control of his congregation and is to intimidated to remove a tramp from the stage. It's also a problem with some men that do not have enough self control to focus on what they came to church for in the first place...Instruction and worship.

To imply that all "women try and drag down upright religious men in positions of power" is immature, myopic thinking and shows nothing but weakness on the part of the man. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Why is is it the fault of someone else because you can't control yourself? And...If that is your "experience" within the church, and the women are in the habit of "blurt[ing] out a lot of offensive and incorrect statements" perhaps you're attending the wrong one. Again...That has nothing to do with women in the church and everything to do with a pastor that has no control.

Your statement of referring to a woman as a "loser of a girl" says volumes.

Obviously you have had a bad experience (maybe more than one) however, that is no excuse for you to insult an entire gender. Neither is your inability to select a church that will feed your spirit and not distract your mind.

 

[Vengle]

Ouch!!!

That brought memories of when I was a kid and the first time I ever danced with a girl (one of my sister's friends at my sister's party). I let curiosity get the best of me as i danced with her and i tried to sneak a peek down her blouse. I remember that as the quickest and most powerful slap in the face I ever got in my entire life! It sent me flying across the room on the seat of my pants.

I crawled behind the couch and stayed there until they all left. :lol:

 

[IanLC]

Can we get back to the post and topic at hand! It is a serious issue.

 

[THE Gypsy]

The "topic" is "women in the church". There was nothing "off topic" about it.

 

[Vengle]

My view is coming from a man who has a female pastor but like other pastors in my organization are subject to the District Elder, District Bishop and General Administration and most of all God. My pastor preaches th gospel of Jesus Christ, preaches and lives out holiness. She is a woman of prayer and is full of knowledge, love, wisdom, patience, the Holy Spirit, and grace. She is also very humble which is odd because many women that I meet form my church and in my organization are not that humble. My pastor I can truely say is a Christ like person. I feel that Paul was addressing the issues given to him. I believe that the mandate was for that time and church. If a church is having a similar problem with women follow the direction of the Apostle Paul. I believe that God calls both men and women to ministry and the pastorate. I feel though that the office of a bishop is reserved soley for a man. But I will not stop nor hinder any woman or man from fulfilling their call and madate given to them by God. As long as you are saved, preaching Jesus lived, died, resurrected, ascended and holiness and living a sanctified life I have no problem with a woman or man in the pastoral position.

I love to listen to Joyce Myers. I don't know much about her general doctrinal beliefs but I have often found myself riveted to her as she talked on particular subjects.

Anytime we reject listening to a person, whether because of their sex or otherwise, we cheat ourselves out of a fresh perspective. There is usually some little thing (some tiny aspect) that a different person will recognize as compared to the one we usually listen to.

I therefore like to see things mixed up a little where it is seldom the same speaker that we listen to. And if we reject listening to women just because they are women, then we have cut 50% of the blessings of spiritual gifts off from ourselves automatically.

 

[Prentis]

I think women can speak, can share, but I do not believe it is appropriate that they ever be in authority over men (notice, boys is different). Men are the head, and od has used men as the leaders. This does not belittle women, but it is simply God's order. Both are equally heirs.

I like what Shirley said. Let the older women teach the young women, that's the way to go! If a woman is teaching a man, something is out of order!

1 Timothy 2:12
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,

God is a God of order, and he has placed man above woman.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I have gone through many a change in my thinking in this life and I would have given you advice at one time that unknown to myself was like telling you to hide what you are from yourself. The problem I see with that today is that only allows a person to forget and become no longer aware of who they are so that they can't deal with it.

Does that make sense? That is why I applaud outspokenness such as you practice. That honesty is refreshing even when it does reveal a few rough edges in us.

We live in a world where people are such good actors it becomes quite difficult to even know if we really know them.

I do not believe it is necessary for us to become so superficial to please God. In fact I believe it to be quite the opposite.

When we stop to think about it, our love for one another ought to rejoice in that freedom for each of us to be who we are. That would take much complication out of life for all of us. I believe that is why the scripture counsels us to openly confess our sins to one another. Instead of our being repulsed by the flaws in others those flaws should be proof to us that they struggle just as our self. And those flaws ought to be cause for even more love through the amplification of our compassion and fellow feeling.

All of us are a bit like Eve struggling with seeing that forbidden fruit and having it call to our desire.

It might be good for us men to put more effort into seeing the unprincipled fairer sex who has not (at least yet) given her self to the love of Christ, as that forbidden fruit and our self as Eve.

Hey, guess what? Woman are not so much different than ourselves after-all!!

You hit the nail on the head right there, except I feel like I am in a bad movie somedays they could be more convincing.

How about none of the above? As far as being a "big boy"...That remains to be seen.

If there is indeed a "girl who sings" that is "always checking out [your] junk and squirming away as she is worshiping", that is not a problem with "women being a burden especially in the church"...THAT is a problem with an ineffective pastor that doesn't have control of his congregation and is to intimidated to remove a tramp from the stage. It's also a problem with some men that do not have enough self control to focus on what they came to church for in the first place...Instruction and worship.

To imply that all "women try and drag down upright religious men in positions of power" is immature, myopic thinking and shows nothing but weakness on the part of the man. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Why is is it the fault of someone else because you can't control yourself? And...If that is your "experience" within the church, and the women are in the habit of "blurt[ing] out a lot of offensive and incorrect statements" perhaps you're attending the wrong one. Again...That has nothing to do with women in the church and everything to do with a pastor that has no control.

Your statement of referring to a woman as a "loser of a girl" says volumes.

Obviously you have had a bad experience (maybe more than one) however, that is no excuse for you to insult an entire gender. Neither is your inability to select a church that will feed your spirit and not distract your mind.

Well you are making some pretty rash generalizations yourself over one post I made which is fine, it obviously got you in some way I have a theory and will keep it to myself. For five years it has been an issue at this church and some of these girls do make a big deal about everything one does. Do you think it would be a good idea to confront someone about it already ?

As for the pastor having control there is a lot of acting going on and I doubt he is aware of the issue.

 

[Vengle]

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

What on earth does that part I highlighted mean? Especially the last phrase of it? :unsure:

"and are not afraid with any amazement."?

That has me stumped. I see Darby's version renders amazement as "consternation" which would be an angry reaction.

I see that the word it comes from is a derivative of this one: <G4422> ptoeo -- probably akin to the alternate of 4098 (through the idea of causing to fall) or to 4072 (through that of causing to fly away); to scare:

So what it means is that she not allow the actions of the man to cause her to fall off from her responsibility as a wife to her husband? That is the best I can figure.