Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Just because you can't see the Catholic religion for the works gospel it is doesn't mean I can't.Still can't stop LYING, can you Ferris.
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Just because you can't see the Catholic religion for the works gospel it is doesn't mean I can't.Still can't stop LYING, can you Ferris.
Justification - the imputation of God's righteousness - occurs the instant a person believes the promise of God. Justification by works in the showing of that imputation of God's righteousness in a person's life occurs after that and develops over time. There is a space of several years (14?) between the time Abraham was justified by his faith in Genesis 15:6 and the time he was justified by his obedience in Genesis 22:12.We have instant coffee, instant soup, instant pizza, and Ferris has instant justification!
There is no argument from me about that.Paul also assures us that "Fauth" requires CHARITY or it is NOT faith (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
="BreadOfLife, post: 1416681, member: 7345"]WRONG.
They don't become priests - then have to make this decision.
They know it going in
A man who freely gives up everything (wife and children) for the sake of the kingdom is unthinkable to anti-clericalists, (contrary to the teachings of Jesus and Paul) and such total sacrifice is non-existent in your line of thinking. That's why you play word games. Your criticism of a celibate priesthood is based on emotion, not scripture.
There is no verse that says Jesus and Paul were married and being like Jesus is the basis for celibacy. It's a calling, not a job opportunity.Actually it is based on Scripture. There is nothing in it that disqualifies a married man to the ministry. Not a verse in God's word that says such a thing.
YES! Right on!!!And I've always readily agreed that the Lord points to it as a wise decision, one that would free us to more ably serve our Lord. Apparently though, not many people go this route.
"If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. " post #156, a double straw man fallacy.Please point out an argument from emotion that I used. I do not recall that. I do recall saying most Christians are married just because it's a fact, not an argument from emotion.
Your biggest mistake is equating a calling from God and twisting it into a church demand. Potential candidates don't just take it upon themselves into the priesthood. They must first consult a Vocations Director who is trained to guide an individual in the discernment process. A Vocations Director most likely has a degree in psychology. Potential candidates are free to quit this process at any time. The bottom line is it must be determined if a person is called by God, and their motives are pure. It's a spiritual journey, they don't get demand papers from the church. The discernment process continues while the potential candidates study for 4-7 years. Many seminarians freely quit during this time because hearing God's voice is not always crystal clear. God had to call the prophet Samuel 3 times before he realized Who it was.I'm also not sure where you came up with how that kind of sacrifice is non-existent to my line of thinking. Will you point out where I intimated anything like that? I'd truly like to know if this is what I'm doing so I can learn from these mistakes. Much appreciated again. Thank you.
There is no verse that says Jesus and Paul were married and being like Jesus is the basis for celibacy. It's a calling, not a job opportunity. YES! Right on!!!
"If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. " post #156, a double straw man fallacy.
"Singleness in the Catholic ministry is most definitely a demand," Post #161
"However it is a flat-out lie to say that in anyplace in the Bible it is required. By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation." < an uncharitable and emotional rant and no response on Revelation 14:4 where virgins are honored.
Your biggest mistake is equating a calling from God and twisting it into a church demand. Potential candidates don't just take it upon themselves into the priesthood. They must first consult a Vocations Director who is trained to guide an individual in the discernment process. A Vocations Director most likely has a degree in psychology. Potential candidates are free to quit this process at any time. The bottom line is it must be determined if a person is called by God, and their motives are pure. It's a spiritual journey, they don't get demand papers from the church. The discernment process continues while the potential candidates study for 4-7 years. Many seminarians freely quit during this time because hearing God's voice is not always crystal clear. God had to call the prophet Samuel 3 times before he realized Who it was.
Celibacy is a process. If it is pretense it is hypocrisy -- the gravest religious sin.
How to Become a Catholic Priest - Scripture Catholic
Hi @dhh712 We read the Peter's wife's mother was ill; Peter was clearly married..........The demand is for the minister to be single. The calling is to be a minister. No where in the God's word does he demand that a minister be single. I'm not sure how much more I can say this. I know that going into the ministry is a calling and one must determine if they are fit for the position. Whether that man is single or married is nowhere in God's word a determining factor (actually, a case can be made that they must be married).
I feel we are just going round and round in circles, so I will bow out of this discussion. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you. Much peace to you.
Hi @dhh712 We read the Peter's wife's mother was ill; Peter was clearly married..........
@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.So was Samuel. The only examples the other side provides are Paul (who may have been divorced) and Jesus who will always follow the wise counsel of God. I'm just not sure how I can be more clear that it is definitely a demand on the Catholic ministry that is nowhere found in the word of God. But this is twisting words or making up a strawman or something like that. [shrugs]. Not sure how else I can explain it since in fact there is absolutely no demand in God's word for a minister to be single. As I have always said, it is surely a wise counsel. And it is a calling to be a minister, not everyone is fit for it. As I said again--singleness or marriage on the part of the minister is no where--absolutely undeniably nowhere is there any shred of a verse--a factor in whether that person should be called to the ministry. But that I imagine will be seen as twisting words or is a strawman. [shrugs]. I give up. There's just nothing more I can say except to say the same thing over and over again.
@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.
I don't know where it's stated in Scripture that Paul was supposedly divorced, either; I know some ppl try to claim he was in order maybe to try to help whatever scheme it is that they may be arguing; but it';s essentially an argument from silence; something we point out that the cults try to do.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to "enforce" a free choice, it's a ridiculous contradiction, and celibacy is indeed scriptural. I listed 12 relevant scriptures in post #150 here, and it got ignored, rendering this discussion pointless.@dhh712 Enforced celibacy is indeed not Scriptural.
Paul was celibate, and recommended celibacy for full time ministers of the church, as did Jesus. post #150 here, It's not a command, not a doctrine, and not an imposition, celibacy is a gift. Read your Bible.I don't know where it's stated in Scripture that Paul was supposedly divorced, either; I know some ppl try to claim he was in order maybe to try to help whatever scheme it is that they may be arguing; but it';s essentially an argument from silence; something we point out that the cults try to do.
Which definition of 'justification' are you referring to?justification is ongoing, not a one-time event.
The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is indeed the faith that works.Only faith that WORKS is genuine faith that can justify.
Anything else is an clangling cymbal - an empty shell (1 Cor. 13:1-13).
You make a good point! Paul remained unmarried saying that is what he recommended, but if you can't contain yourself, then marry.
It may be a discipline with good intentions, but it's a man-made discipline when made mandatory, not according to Christ.
Some would say this is an example of many "traditions of men" found in the RCC.
How do works of charity, for example, MAKE a person born again in your 'faith + works of faith' interpretation of Romans 4?
Baptism is a commanded obedience but it has zero power to change/ convert/ make born again.born again by faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 8:37:38
United to God in His grace