What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[Ferris Bueller]

Pay attention –
James 2 shows us that faith itself is true faith ONLY by our cooperation.
Faith = Belief + Cooperation (works, love, surrender).

You CANNOT be justified without
faith, as defined above.
Ergo, the James 2:24 does NOT contradict the Romans 4 definition of Justification - NOR is it a “different” definition.

Paul is talking about how to be MADE righteous in Romans 4. So if you are sure he (and James) are saying a person is MADE righteous by faith and works of faith explain how a person is MADE born again by faith and works of faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Where does the Bible say so?
Gal 3:27

How do works of charity, for example, MAKE a person born again in your 'faith + works of faith' interpretation of Romans 4?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What’s the water for?

Water in John 3:5 is a metonymy for John's baptism for repentance. Everybody must repent in order to be born again. But that is not what actually changes a person into a born again new creation. No work of faith does that. No work of faith can do that. God's forgiveness, received through faith, not works of righteousness, does that all by itself. Not lying, not stealing, being charitable, etc., no matter how motivated by faith in God they may be, can not transform a person into a born again person. The one and only thing that transforms a person into a born again person is God's mercy received by faith, not works of faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

faith and baptism

If baptism MAKES you a born again person then Christianity is a works righteousness religion.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

that make you’re baptism invalid
cos you believe you are already saved, so baptism is meaningless to you!

If justification is a reward for performing the work of baptism then Christianity is a works righteousness religion. The very thing Paul said it is not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

works after being saved are meaningless!

No, they SHOW that you have the righteousness that comes through faith in God's forgiveness:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18

"because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47
​

James says the person who has 'faith alone' is SHOWING that they do not have faith in God, just as faith and works SHOW you do. And so 'faith alone' shows that you are not saved. He is not saying you have to have faith and works of faith to be justified (MADE righteous). He is saying you have to faith and works to be SHOWN to be righteous. Otherwise, you obviously are not righteous (not justified).

You don't get this because you do not know that the word 'justified' means to be, both, MADE righteous (Paul's argument), and to be SHOWN to be righteous (James' argument). Context shows which meaning is being addressed. In the unnecessary attempt to get James into agreement with Paul, as if they were making the same point, the Catholic church changed Paul's argument to mean 'faith without works of the law, but with works of faith'. And so the question remains, "how do works of faith MAKE a person born again?" They don't, of course. Only God's mercy, received by believing in that mercy apart from the merit of righteous work makes a person a born again righteous new creation.

 

[Matthias]

yes true by what means?

By means of the gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

Some ignorant people would say that, yes.

Celibacy is a discipline that is based in SCRIPTURE (1 Cor. 7:8-40), however – and didn’t just jump out of someone’s head one day.

I'm afraid you are wrong about that! Celibacy in Scripture is a choice not a church creed as those false prophets who formed the RCC demanded. "Traditions of men" the RCC invented it!

 

[dhh712]

I'm afraid you are wrong about that! Celibacy in Scripture is a choice not a church creed as those false prophets who formed the RCC demanded. "Traditions of men" the RCC invented it!

Right again. Celibacy is in every verse presented as a choice. It is suggested very strongly since it can free us of all kinds of problems. However it is a flat-out lie to say that in anyplace in the Bible it is required. By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation.

 

[Illuminator]

Right again. Celibacy is in every verse presented as a choice. It is suggested very strongly since it can free us of all kinds of problems. However it is a flat-out lie to say that in anyplace in the Bible it is required.

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, and found only in one rite out of 23. Because it is a discipline, exceptions can be made.

By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation.

Celibacy is NOT a tradition; it is a very confined and limited discipline.

Matt. 19:11-12 – Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 – Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 – Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus’ kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 – Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 – Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 – Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church’s celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 – in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church’s practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 – Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 – Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

By the authority of God's word, celibacy is absolutely a man-made tradition. To say anything else is to falsify the word of God and may that person be cursed who adds to God's word what is not there, as God says he should be in Revelation.

Rev. 14:4 – unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

WHO FALSIFIES THE WORD OF GOD???

 

[BreadOfLife]

Paul is talking about how to be MADE righteous in Romans 4. So if you are sure he (and James) are saying a person is MADE righteous by faith and works of faith explain how a person is MADE born again by faith and works of faith.

One again – you refuse to pay attention to the details.

The Bible tells us that justified nu gaith.
The Bible ALSO tells us that the only TRUE faith is one what WORKS in love (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-24).

Ergo, James 2:24 is correct and does NOT contradict Romans 7 – NOR is it using a “different” definition.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm afraid you are wrong about that! Celibacy in Scripture is a choice not a church creed as those false prophets who formed the RCC demanded. "Traditions of men" the RCC invented it!

Once again, this stems from YOUR abject ignorance of what a Tradition is.

Priestly celibacy is a Biblical discipline – NOT a “Tradition”.
It is observed in the Western “Latin/Roman) Liturgical Rite. In the Eastern Liturgical Rites, there ARE married clergy.

And celibacy is STILL a choice.
NOBODY is forced into the Priesthood and a life of celibacy.

Do your homeworh and stop with the moronic claims.
Enough of your nonsense already . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How do works of charity, for example, MAKE a person born again in your 'faith + works of faith' interpretation of Romans 4?

It's not Faith "+" Works.
Faith = Belief + obedience (works of love, submission).

In other words - TRUE faith includes works (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-24).
Anything other than that is NOT a saving, justifying faith.

 

[Charlie24]

Once again, this stems from YOUR abject ignorance of what a Tradition is.

Priestly celibacy is a Biblical discipline – NOT a “Tradition”.
It is observed in the Western “Latin/Roman) Liturgical Rite. In the Eastern Liturgical Rites, there ARE married clergy.

And celibacy is STILL a choice.
NOBODY is forced into the Priesthood and a life of celibacy.

Do your homeworh and stop with the moronic claims.
Enough of your nonsense already . . .

It's not the fact of who chooses the priesthood, it's the fact that men have changed scripture to their traditions!

Nowhere in Scripture is this nonsense found, The RCC is the master of manmade traditions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's not the fact of who chooses the priesthood, it's the fact that men have changed scripture to their traditions!

Nowhere in Scripture is this nonsense found, The RCC is the master of manmade traditions.

An idiotic false charge.

Do me a favor - find these man-made PROTESTANT traditions in the Bible - THEN come and talk to me about the Biblical discipline of Priestly celibacy (1 Cor. 7:8-40) . . .

- Pre-Tribulation "Rapture"
- Accepting Jesus Christ as "Personal Lord and Savior"
- Altar calls
- Invisible Church
- Limited Atonement
- Eternal Security
- Sola Scriptura
- Sola Fide
- Perspecuity of Scripture

 

[dhh712]

It's not Faith "+" Works.
Faith c= Belief + oovedience (works of love, submission).

In other words - TRUE faith includes works (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-24).
Anything other than that is NOT a saving, justifying faith.

If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. Anyone choosing to be the equivalent of a pastor in the Catholic church should be allowed to marry. It shouldn't be an exception or anything like that. It shouldn't be an issue at all because it's not a demand in God's word. An encouragement, wise counsel, but clearly that kind of life is not preferred by most Christians as most are married.

I'm glad that's it's done in the Eastern setting; wish that it would be more pervasive around here.

And I definitely don't know much about Catholicism, it's just what I've heard and experienced while raised in the Catholic church. We did not have any married priests.

 

[Illuminator]

If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word.

You still don't get it, after all the biblical evidence in post #150 that you refuse to deal with. How can celibacy be imposed when it is a free choice, a gift? That makes no sense. Was Jesus married? Was Paul?

 

[Illuminator]

If justification is a reward for performing the work of baptism then Christianity is a works righteousness religion. The very thing Paul said it is not.

Who told you that baptism is a work?
Post #1718, last Monday:

Sadly, Ferris doesn't get it. Cognitive dissonance are like chains that bind him into constantly teaching anti-Catholic LIES about "works righteousness". Watch him do it again.

I must be a prophet!​

 

[dhh712]

You still don't get it, after all the biblical evidence in post #150 that you refuse to deal with. How can celibacy be imposed when it is a free choice, a gift? That makes no sense. Was Jesus married? Was Paul?

The choice should be going into the ministry (or calling rather); it should not depend on the marital status (as it definitely seems to overwhelmingly do with ministers in the Catholic church at least in the states here. I know of at least one priest who left that position because he got married. If singleness wasn't imposed on priests, then it would have been said that he decided to leave the ministry, not that he decided to get married and that's why he left the position. It turns singleness into a demand on the minister of God's word which is nowhere found in God's word. That is something which you cannot explain away. It is there. Else, a majority of the pastors in the Catholic church would be married. There is no denying it).

Some scholars say that Paul may have been divorced (of course we don't know that; though we surely are not also given that he was never married in God's word. He did say that he was given the gift of celibacy, yet that could have been after he was converted; he never says when it was given). It doesn't matter what these people did with their lives; surely a good example to follow. Yet, no where in God's word is it required of ministers of God's word to remain unmarried. Rather, it provides a stipulation that such people be a "husband of one wife". Some people (like my husband did) take that literally; most don't (meaning that you don't have to be married to be a minister, but if you are it must be to only one woman).

 

[Illuminator]

The choice should be going into the ministry (or calling rather); it should not depend on the marital status (as it definitely seems to overwhelmingly do with ministers in the Catholic church at least in the states here. I know of at least one priest who left that position because he got married. If singleness wasn't imposed on priests, then it would have been said that he decided to leave the ministry, not that he decided to get married and that's why he left the position. It turns singleness into a demand on the minister of God's word which is nowhere found in God's word.

Was the singleness of Jesus and Paul a demand? There is something seriously wrong with your logic.