Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

Anyone who is born again, is a "real" Christian.
Nothing else need apply for that position.

Agreed.

Since Jehovah's Witnesses reject the deity of Christ and the Trinity they cannot claim to be "real" Christians. The "doctrine of Christ" is the key to separate real Christians from those who claim to be Christians. See the second epistle of John.

Nowhere in Scripture - including 2 John - is there a verse that says anything like what you are claiming. There is no doctrinal purity test requirement for salvation.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The KJV changed all the words in the Bible - to archaic English.

That’s hilarious @Wrangler

No sale.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jehovah's witnesses believe they are real Christians. Why? What Scriptural evidence is there to support that belief?

What do we base our beliefs on?
Jesus said at Jn 17:17 Your word is truth! We believe the 66 books of the Bible is His word of truth. All of our beliefs are based on what the Bible says, even if it differs from church doctrine.

Why do we call ourselves Jehovah's witnesses? When speaking to His people, God whose name is Jehovah said: You are my witnesses, as recorded for us at Isa 43:10. Jesus himself is the most famous witness of Jehovah, being called the Faithful Witness in God's word Rev 1:5. He bore testimony about his God Jehovah as Jehovah's witnesses still do today.

Although God's people have always been under law to love each other, Jesus actually gave us a new commandment about loving each other Jn 13:34,35, this was to be a sacrificial love as he had for his sheep. So how do Jehovah's witnesses obey that commandment? We love our brothers and sisters as family, even calling one another as such. We do not let national boundaries divide us, as we have love for the whole association of brothers 1 Pet 2:17 We always come to the aid of our brothers and sisters around the world who are in need.

Do true Christians change their beliefs? Jehovah told Daniel, who wanted to understand the things he penned in the Bible to seal up the book until the time of the end, when knowledge would become abundant. Proverbs 4:18 says the path of the righteous is like the morning light that gets brighter and brighter as day dawns. We believe we are living in those last days as most do, and as we perceive established Bible doctrine being revealed to be incorrectly understood, we are willing to adjust our understanding and continue to move forward.

Jesus made God's name known Jn 17:26; and he stated very clearly to satan who tried to get his worship that it is written; it is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you render sacred service Mat 4:10. We worship Jehovah exclusively, as the verse Jesus quoted said Deut 6:13

So are Jehovah's witnesses Christians?

I di dnot look at all teh responses but here is my answer. One cannot be A "Christian" until they have placed their trust in the death, burial and PHYSICAL resurrection of Jesus for their sins. Jehovah's Witnesses that God destroyed Jesus body and He spiritually rose. thyus they cannot be Christians for they deny the physical resurrection.

I am convinced (warning just my opinion) that someone can become a Christian without acknowledging the deity of Christ. If their conversion is real, they will come to recognize the deity of Jesus and accept it. God is patient and knows the heart. Sometimes it takes time to unravel craftily fashioned false doctrine that sounds so appealing but is false- like many JW doctrines.

 

[Enoch111]

Nowhere in Scripture - including 2 John - is there a verse that says anything like what you are claiming.

What's this?
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What is "the doctrine of Christ"? Paul tells us exactly what it is in 1 Timothy 3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
[1] God was manifest in the flesh, = INCARNATION
[2] justified in the Spirit, = DEATH,BURIAL,RESURRECTION
[3] seen of angels, = ASCENSION
[4] preached unto the Gentiles, = THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST
[5]believed on in the world, = THE CHURCH = THE BODY OF CHRIST
[6] received up into glory. = SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER

Therefore JWs need to focus on the second clause: "GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH".
In plain English "God became a sinless Man". Since JWs do not believe that Jesus if God, they have rejected the doctrine of Christ.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Continued From No.57

Here's a question that someone wrote in to the questions from readers
section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

"Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)"

The answer given in the magazine is YES.

The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of the Society's
publication titled "Aid To Bible Understanding" where it says that the
144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
(1John 2:1)

Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of
the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the
rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell
direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the
Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

So then; when a JW either defects or is disfellowshipped, their pipeline to
the mediator is broken, and they right quick lose all contact with God; thus
placing themselves in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of
Revelation.

Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for
non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation
with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

In other words: Christ's mediation for rank and file JWs as per 1Tim 2:5 is
accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's
association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of
humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts
humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with
God.

NOTE: I've had JWs tell me that the Watchtower magazine isn't their
authority in matters of faith and practice. But the Jan 1, 1942 issue of the
magazine, on page 5, speaks for itself as a trustworthy source of
Watchtower Society theology by saying:

"Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or
expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who
believe that God uses the Watchtower as a means of communicating to his
people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The
Watchtower."

In other words: the haulers of water and the hewers of wood-- John Q and
Jane Doe rank and file --are not only expected to know what's in the
Watchtower magazine, but they're also required to accept it as God's
providence.
_

 

[Wrangler]

What is "the doctrine of Christ"? Paul tells us exactly what it is in 1 Timothy 3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
[1] God was manifest in the flesh, = INCARNATION

Manifest or revealed or shown in the flesh does not mean IS God. Also, the doctrine of Christ is the only means of salvation is through the Son of God, not that he IS God.

If Jesus were God that is what the Bible would call him and not the Son of god.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Continued From No.65

My first encounter with a Watchtower Society agent (a.k.a. Jehovah's
Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and inexperienced; and
thus assumed that the missionary coming down my dad's driveway was a
typical Christian.

But when I talked this over with an elder; he became alarmed; and urged
me to read a little book titled "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J.
Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I
would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
(call him Pete) was an ex JW who had been in the Watchtower Society
system for near three decades before terminating his involvement; so he
knew the twists and turns of its doctrines pretty good.

Pete didn't train us to hammer the Society's missionaries in a debate
because even if you best them scripture for scripture, they will not give up
on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right
even when it appears to be totally wrong. They are thoroughly convinced
that the Society is the voice of God, while your voice has no more validity
than that of a squeaky little gerbil.

Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
Dencher. I also read the Society's little brown book titled "Reasoning From The Scriptures".

(This was all before the internet and the ready volume of information
available online, e.g. YouTube.)

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and
phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in the
JW mind than what you'd expect because the Society has re-defined the
meanings of those terminologies.

So your first challenge with Jehovah's Witness teachings is to scale the
language barrier. That by itself is an Herculean task because you'll not only
be up against a tangle of semantics, but also a Jumanji of twisted scriptures,
double speak, humanistic reasoning, rationalizing, and clever sophistry.
_

 

[MatthewG]

Lol, When it comes to Wrangler.

The comment about the KJV words.

The important thing also to note is the further understanding that Bibles were not first written in English anyway. There is a difference because most of the letters recovered and rewritten, were from Hebrew in the Old testament, and Greek in the Apostolic record though with a Hebrew mindset, and a view from Luke who was a gentile, I believe.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What is "the doctrine of Christ"? Paul tells us exactly what it is in 1 Timothy 3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
[1] God was manifest in the flesh

Not so.

The doctrine of Christ is in the same book it’s mentioned in:

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” (2 John 1:7)

[note: not that God is come in the flesh]

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 1:9)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That is merely assumption and human reasoning to obfuscate what scripture actually says, without any substantial reason for doing so apart from defending other assumptions. I am the first to admit there are assumptions made by the folk who devised the creedal trinity formula, but you add to them by making more of your own by throwing out the baby with the bath water.
God sent His only begotten Son. Jesus said He and His Father are one. What more evidence do you need? What was it that God begot if not God? Explain how the perfect Creator of the universe could design and create myriads of kinds of beings and creatures, all of which beget after their own kind, yet according to the popular opinion among extreme anti trinitarian activists of which JWs are at the forefront, when it came to begetting a Son, He begat a different species or kind of being other than Himself? Please explain why He failed to bring forth one of His own kind... God.

There's nothing wrong with reasoning on the scriptures. Just because you believe that Jehovah's witnesses don't reason on the scriptures isn't important to us. We disagree with many things you teach that you say are scriptural but are not.

Anyone who says that Jehovah Witnesses don't believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God or imply that Jehovah Witnesses don't believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, show's either how much they don't know about Jehovah Witnesses or they outright will lie about them, but the fact that Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God shows that Jehovah Witnesses believe the true God beget a son.We just teach that God's only begotten Son wasn't begotten when Mary became pregnant with Jesus. The true God's Son was begotten long before he became human. The word begotten as we would humans view the word, understand that humans beget by procreation. The True God didn't procreate with anyone. The difference between humans and the true God is that humans beget by procreation and God begets by creating. God doesn't procreate. The reason that the only begotten Son is called the only begotten Son is because he(the only begotten Son) was the first person created by God and the only one God directly created then everyone and everything else was created indirectly through him(the only begotten Son), including all the angels who all were created by God through his only begotten Son.

Also you can take Scripture out of context all you want like you do when you quote scripture that says, Jesus said He and His Father are one. Jesus also said he wanted his disciples to be one just as he(Jesus) and his father(God) were one. What they suppose to believe, that they(Jesus disciples) are God just because Jesus said he wanted his disciples to be one, just as he and his father are one. I don't think so. Too many people take that scripture that says,"I and the father are one" out of context. You do that because you're influenced by your Trinity doctrine, which isn't in the scriptures but was developed by imperfect humans through many arguments concerning two minor groups beliefs. The majority of the scholars and theologians of that time had a belief that was between these two groups beliefs.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT

I’m satisfied with the rendering of “worship” in the King James Bible.

Once you entertain the idea of changing words in your Bible you end up in the clutches of cults.

All this means to me is that you choose to be dogmatic which basically means you don't think a person should reason on the scriptures. I understand from the scriptures that the word proskyneo which is translated worship in Bibles has to be taken into context, otherwise you will start teaching it's ok to worship human beings, because this same word proskyneo that is translated worship is used regarding humans.
Jews when visiting another Jew like say a prophet, would fall down on their knees bowing to them. This doesn't mean because this word proskyneo that is translated worship used in these situations that these Jews were worshipping this prophet. It's just that the word proskyneo is translated worship in that particular Bible.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

All this means to me is that you choose to be dogmatic which basically means you don't think a person should reason on the scriptures.

No.

But dogmatic to sticking with what the King James Bible says, yes.

As I said, once you start changing words in the Bible with “reason” then there’s “no reason” to abide by what the Bible says. We can all “reason” things out of it and create our own private organizations. This is why there’s so much division.

People with their little unbiblical “Bible study” books start making their own translations and their own doctrines.

 

[Wrangler]

No.

But dogmatic to sticking with what the King James Bible says, yes.

You are dogmatically sticking with what the King James Bible says NO MATTER how wrong it is. Sounds reasonable.

As I said, once you start changing words in the Bible with “reason” then there’s “no reason” to abide by what the Bible says. We can all “reason” things out of it and created our own private organizations. This is why there’s so much division.

People with their little unbiblical “Bible study” books start making their own translations and their own doctrines.

Denomination. Not that there is anything wrong with it for there is not a doctrinal purity test to be saved.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You are dogmatically sticking with what the King James Bible says NO MATTER how wrong it is.

This is rich.

Bible corrupter corrupts Bible.

Bible corrupter writes lexicons and “Bible study helps”.

Bible reader uses “Bible study help” books to discern the “most accurate” Bible.

Denomination. Not that there is anything wrong with it

Actually you are wrong my friend:

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Stop resisting @Wrangler

 

[Wrangler]

Actually you are wrong my friend:

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Paul denominated from Barabas. So vehemently did they argue about taking Saint Mark with them that the 2 Apostles had to go their separate ways. And 1 COR 1:10 is not written in modern English as a command. I beseech you is not I command you.

I am not wrong.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Paul denominated from Barabas.

Over taking someone on an evangelical trip?

Hardly a justification for Denominations sir.

I beseech you is not I command you.

If You won’t follow a hearty suggestion from an inspired writer, What else won’t you follow?

No wonder you like Denominations.

You don’t want to be bound by any book it seems…

 

[tigger 2]

No.

But dogmatic to sticking with what the King James Bible says, yes.

As I said, once you start changing words in the Bible with “reason” then there’s “no reason” to abide by what the Bible says. We can all “reason” things out of it and create our own private organizations. This is why there’s so much division.

People with their little unbiblical “Bible study” books start making their own translations and their own doctrines.

........................................
The scriptures are the original OT and NT Hebrew and Greek texts. The 17th century English translation (KJV) is an imperfect translation of relatively recent copies of copies (etc.) of the originals. The trinitarian KJV translators knew, for example, that God's name was found about 6000 times in the OT text they were "translating." But they, instead, removed that God-inspired personal name of God in nearly every instance and added in its place a completely different word which they preferred.

If this is okay, why did the KJV also honestly transliterate the name in a few places? How, then is that Okay?

16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

'LORD' is how the KJV improperly rendered YHWH (JHVH) in 6000+ places where it occurs in the Hebrew text they used. So how did the name "Jehovah" (YHWH/JHVH) get honestly put in Ps 83:18? Notice the improper translation ("LORD") in verse 16.

Also notice how the ASV properly rendered all those uses of JHVH in the text. How could the KJV be the perfect word of God?

 

[Wrangler]

Hardly a justification for Denominations sir.

The Apostles thought it was a justification for the denomination; they did split.

 

[MatthewG]

Brick and mortar religion is what God has done away with... It is all about worshiping God in Spirit and in truth...

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jehovah's witnesses believe they are real Christians. Why? What Scriptural evidence is there to support that belief?

What do we base our beliefs on?
Jesus said at Jn 17:17 Your word is truth! We believe the 66 books of the Bible is His word of truth. All of our beliefs are based on what the Bible says, even if it differs from church doctrine.

Why do we call ourselves Jehovah's witnesses? When speaking to His people, God whose name is Jehovah said: You are my witnesses, as recorded for us at Isa 43:10. Jesus himself is the most famous witness of Jehovah, being called the Faithful Witness in God's word Rev 1:5. He bore testimony about his God Jehovah as Jehovah's witnesses still do today.

Although God's people have always been under law to love each other, Jesus actually gave us a new commandment about loving each other Jn 13:34,35, this was to be a sacrificial love as he had for his sheep. So how do Jehovah's witnesses obey that commandment? We love our brothers and sisters as family, even calling one another as such. We do not let national boundaries divide us, as we have love for the whole association of brothers 1 Pet 2:17 We always come to the aid of our brothers and sisters around the world who are in need.

Do true Christians change their beliefs? Jehovah told Daniel, who wanted to understand the things he penned in the Bible to seal up the book until the time of the end, when knowledge would become abundant. Proverbs 4:18 says the path of the righteous is like the morning light that gets brighter and brighter as day dawns. We believe we are living in those last days as most do, and as we perceive established Bible doctrine being revealed to be incorrectly understood, we are willing to adjust our understanding and continue to move forward.

Jesus made God's name known Jn 17:26; and he stated very clearly to satan who tried to get his worship that it is written; it is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you render sacred service Mat 4:10. We worship Jehovah exclusively, as the verse Jesus quoted said Deut 6:13

So are Jehovah's witnesses Christians?

Hello Robert Gwin, I have viewed this thread:
Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism:

Ephesians Four

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Love, Walter and Debbie