quietthinker
Well-Known Member
'for God so loved the World he gave his only begotten Son......' that whosoever believes just as I/you do will have eternal life ?
Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
- Thread starter Robert Gwin
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
No. Sorry. I love you in Christ, but Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians because they don't follow the early church but they follow the WatchTower organization.
As promised, I created a thread to show you why I believe the JW religion is false and evil.
Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is evil (Despite my love for them as human beings)
Amen maam. So happy Jehovah identifies the path beyond any doubt in His Word. What passages of identification do you appreciate?
... and my point is made with an exclamation point!
I am in your debt.
I could not have proven the futility of the debate better myself.
(For the sake of those playing along on the HOME EDITION of "Is Jesus God?" ... all of the native speakers in the crowd that heard EXACTLY what Jesus said and collected stones to kill Jesus for claiming equality with God disagree with JW conclusion and scholarship of their language. One is free to doubt that Jesus IS GOD, but one cannot honestly doubt that Jesus CLAIMED TO BE God.)
Why not read the context of the account AT. That was not what Jesus was claiming at all sir, in fact he point blank corrected them on who he was. Did he not go on 4 chapters later and say Jehovah is greater than he is? You obviously simply want it to be the case.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Express image in character, power, righteousness, holiness, in everything equal to His Father, except for one thing, which you readily recognize, authority. That the Son is submitted to God's Father's authority and rank does not remove one iota of His deity.
May I ask for an example of where JW's do not follow the early church sir.
When Jesus went back to heaven, he sat at the Fathers right hand, what does that mean Brake?
Anyone can become a Christian.
Even People in the Mormon church, who claim they are the true church, can become born again. The thing is, it’s a personal thing between an individual and them looking to God.
Almost every denomination agrees to the basic information Jesus Christ was sent down firstly being the word of God made flesh according to John, and that He came to save people from their sins and paid sin once and for all on the cross, and was risen again in justification by God himself.
The thing is this just the beginning of the journey for the individuals who should seek to grow and worship God in spirit and truth.
Even People in the Mormon church, who claim they are the true church, can become born again. The thing is, it’s a personal thing between an individual and them looking to God.
Almost every denomination agrees to the basic information Jesus Christ was sent down firstly being the word of God made flesh according to John, and that He came to save people from their sins and paid sin once and for all on the cross, and was risen again in justification by God himself.
The thing is this just the beginning of the journey for the individuals who should seek to grow and worship God in spirit and truth.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It means that the Son sat at the right hand of the Father, on the Father's throne, reigning over the affairs of the kingdom. Don't know what else i can tell you.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Yes, I provided many examples in the thread where they do this (i.e. I show where they violate Scripture).
Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is evil (Despite my love for them as human beings)
You can verify the claims I made for yourself on non-JW websites. Obviously the JW's are not going to admit any wrong doing of their own organization and so they will try and defend it to make it look like they are innocent. But the JW organization even the past has shown to want to control their own people in not wanting you to look at the internet (no doubt in fear that they would be found out to be liars).
The real reasons why Watchtower organization FEARS the INTERNET
Side Note:
Keep in mind that I am sure you may find one Non JW site that might appear to refute a claim I made. The idea here is to see if there are claims (Non-JW ones) that do support the claim.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin said:
We worship Jehovah exclusively[/QUOTE\]
Then Michiah-Imla said:
Why?
The Apostles worshipped Christ as well:
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy…” (Luke 24:51-52)[/QUOTE\]
When the Greek verb pro·sky·neʹo is used to refer to the worship of a god or a deity, it is rendered “to worship.” (Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8) In this context, however, the disciples recognized the resurrected Jesus as God’s representative. They rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as to “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. (Luke 1:35; Matthew 16:13-16; John 9:35-38) This was similar to the way that people mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures bowed down when meeting prophets, kings, or other representatives of God. (1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4; 1Kings 1:16; 2Kings 4:36, 37) On many occasions, the obeisance done to Jesus expressed gratitude for divine revelation or recognition of divine favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; John 9:35, 38.)
We worship Jehovah exclusively[/QUOTE\]
Then Michiah-Imla said:
Why?
The Apostles worshipped Christ as well:
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy…” (Luke 24:51-52)[/QUOTE\]
When the Greek verb pro·sky·neʹo is used to refer to the worship of a god or a deity, it is rendered “to worship.” (Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8) In this context, however, the disciples recognized the resurrected Jesus as God’s representative. They rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as to “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. (Luke 1:35; Matthew 16:13-16; John 9:35-38) This was similar to the way that people mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures bowed down when meeting prophets, kings, or other representatives of God. (1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4; 1Kings 1:16; 2Kings 4:36, 37) On many occasions, the obeisance done to Jesus expressed gratitude for divine revelation or recognition of divine favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; John 9:35, 38.)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That is merely assumption and human reasoning to obfuscate what scripture actually says, without any substantial reason for doing so apart from defending other assumptions. I am the first to admit there are assumptions made by the folk who devised the creedal trinity formula, but you add to them by making more of your own by throwing out the baby with the bath water.
God sent His only begotten Son. Jesus said He and His Father are one. What more evidence do you need? What was it that God begot if not God? Explain how the perfect Creator of the universe could design and create myriads of kinds of beings and creatures, all of which beget after their own kind, yet according to the popular opinion among extreme anti trinitarian activists of which JWs are at the forefront, when it came to begetting a Son, He begat a different species or kind of being other than Himself? Please explain why He failed to bring forth one of His own kind... God.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
So, the question is, "Are Jehovah's Witnesses real Christians?"
Robert, if I were to embrace you as a brother in Christ, it would be on the basis of a shared loyalty to Jesus Christ.
Now turning the question around: Can you embrace as a brother in Christ a Trinitarian (or maybe Binatarian) Methodist who's big on grace and soft on sin and kinda messed up?
Robert, if I were to embrace you as a brother in Christ, it would be on the basis of a shared loyalty to Jesus Christ.
Now turning the question around: Can you embrace as a brother in Christ a Trinitarian (or maybe Binatarian) Methodist who's big on grace and soft on sin and kinda messed up?
Either way it goes to me @Robert Gwin, know commenting twice here.
When you exclude (if you will), Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Roman Catholic Church, Westborro Baptist, Calvinist, Pre-mill, A-mill, whatever it is about things which have been used to present the bible such as teachers, prophets, pastors, deacons. There is the ability to just see there is a bible, which has been created since when did the printing press come in? The Gutenberg Bible was printed in Mainz in 1455 by Johann Gutenberg and his associates, Johann Fust and Peter Schoeffer. Only 48 copies are known to have survived, of which 12 are printed on vellum and 36 on paper.
So from around 1455, Bibles started becoming bigger in popularity. There have been cults made with it, and as the prementioned ideas that come from man. Like for example your own 'congregations', The story of Jehovah's Witnesses begins in the late 19th century near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with a group of students studying the Bible. The group was led by Charles Taze Russell, a religious seeker from a Presbyterian background.
So... With the Bible, you can go and look and read it for oneself. Learning about the Nation of Israel in the Old Testament, and Creation, and that God promised to bring forth the messiah through a line of Jews, through Abraham who is the father of the faith, who had faith before any of us here right now on earth existed assuredly. You can learn about how the Lord Jesus Christ, was sent down from heaven, and how he was not wanted (as he was not beautiful), many people doubted him, and were faithless when seeing him. Questioned by Pharisees to prove signs and missing what was already done in front of them, healing people from blind, mute, sickness, raising people from the dead. The Apostles were also able to do this by the Holy Spirit in their day in time. The whole of the bible revolves around the Father (Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh), but also around the Son - His only begotten-son whom was raised from the dead. Showing defeat over death, and that is how it shall before any persons believer or not.
Human beings will raise again to life. Now where is that? I personally believe they are raised up in the Heavenly Realm where God's city the new Jerusalm is located and it is spiritual because God is spirit, and God dwells there in that city, with the Lamb as the light (if I recall correctly). There are people who are on the outside of the gates, known to have loved to lie to people, commit murders, dogs, and were unbelievers. There are those who are faithful go into the city, having had washed their robes (having their sins taken for by JEsus and having lived by Him in this life by the Spirit of Christ).
Therefore with all this, the conclusion is this. Any person (in a denomination) can be a Christian, having faith on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Seeking God in faith, which pleases Him, and grow in knowledge and worship God in spirit and truth. In this, one discovers new life set free from the old life because of Jesus having done everything we could not do. So that human beings are free to choose to live their life as they please, knowing they responsible along to God when they leave this life. It is good to have love for God, and your neighbor and remember that the Gospel of Christ is the power unto salvation (which is a restored renewed soul (mind/will/emotion) that dwells in our flesh. Once this flesh passes away the soul goes on to the spiritual heavenly realm of God where he resides.
Many believe in coming back to earth, or reincarnation, or they will have some utopia living on the earth, I do not believe this personally. What I do believe is that, all people are resurrected into a new spiritual realm which is unlike this, and God has a purpose for it all in his plan for the good of all, and those who do not choose to seek, will be outside the gates of the kingdom.
When you exclude (if you will), Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Roman Catholic Church, Westborro Baptist, Calvinist, Pre-mill, A-mill, whatever it is about things which have been used to present the bible such as teachers, prophets, pastors, deacons. There is the ability to just see there is a bible, which has been created since when did the printing press come in? The Gutenberg Bible was printed in Mainz in 1455 by Johann Gutenberg and his associates, Johann Fust and Peter Schoeffer. Only 48 copies are known to have survived, of which 12 are printed on vellum and 36 on paper.
So from around 1455, Bibles started becoming bigger in popularity. There have been cults made with it, and as the prementioned ideas that come from man. Like for example your own 'congregations', The story of Jehovah's Witnesses begins in the late 19th century near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with a group of students studying the Bible. The group was led by Charles Taze Russell, a religious seeker from a Presbyterian background.
So... With the Bible, you can go and look and read it for oneself. Learning about the Nation of Israel in the Old Testament, and Creation, and that God promised to bring forth the messiah through a line of Jews, through Abraham who is the father of the faith, who had faith before any of us here right now on earth existed assuredly. You can learn about how the Lord Jesus Christ, was sent down from heaven, and how he was not wanted (as he was not beautiful), many people doubted him, and were faithless when seeing him. Questioned by Pharisees to prove signs and missing what was already done in front of them, healing people from blind, mute, sickness, raising people from the dead. The Apostles were also able to do this by the Holy Spirit in their day in time. The whole of the bible revolves around the Father (Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh), but also around the Son - His only begotten-son whom was raised from the dead. Showing defeat over death, and that is how it shall before any persons believer or not.
Human beings will raise again to life. Now where is that? I personally believe they are raised up in the Heavenly Realm where God's city the new Jerusalm is located and it is spiritual because God is spirit, and God dwells there in that city, with the Lamb as the light (if I recall correctly). There are people who are on the outside of the gates, known to have loved to lie to people, commit murders, dogs, and were unbelievers. There are those who are faithful go into the city, having had washed their robes (having their sins taken for by JEsus and having lived by Him in this life by the Spirit of Christ).
Therefore with all this, the conclusion is this. Any person (in a denomination) can be a Christian, having faith on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Seeking God in faith, which pleases Him, and grow in knowledge and worship God in spirit and truth. In this, one discovers new life set free from the old life because of Jesus having done everything we could not do. So that human beings are free to choose to live their life as they please, knowing they responsible along to God when they leave this life. It is good to have love for God, and your neighbor and remember that the Gospel of Christ is the power unto salvation (which is a restored renewed soul (mind/will/emotion) that dwells in our flesh. Once this flesh passes away the soul goes on to the spiritual heavenly realm of God where he resides.
Many believe in coming back to earth, or reincarnation, or they will have some utopia living on the earth, I do not believe this personally. What I do believe is that, all people are resurrected into a new spiritual realm which is unlike this, and God has a purpose for it all in his plan for the good of all, and those who do not choose to seek, will be outside the gates of the kingdom.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Not so fast:
“…all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.” (John 5:23)
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Were John Q and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.
In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.
"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible
Understanding, 1971, p.920)
"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)
But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel form thus restoring him to
his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.
FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:
"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_
Were John Q and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.
In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.
"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible
Understanding, 1971, p.920)
"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)
But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel form thus restoring him to
his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.
FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:
"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin said:
We worship Jehovah exclusively[/QUOTE\]
Then Michiah-Imla said:
Why?
The Apostles worshipped Christ as well:
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy…” (Luke 24:51-52)[/QUOTE\]
But when the Greek verb pro·sky·neʹo is used to refer to the worship of a god or a deity, it is rendered “to worship.” (Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8) In this context, however, the disciples recognized the resurrected Jesus as God’s representative. They rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as to “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. (Luke 1:35; Matthew 16:13-16; John 9:35-38) This was similar to the way that people mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures bowed down when meeting prophets, kings, or other representatives of God. (1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4; 1Kings 1:16; 2Kings 4:36, 37) On many occasions, the obeisance done to Jesus expressed gratitude for divine revelation or recognition of divine favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; John 9:35, 38.)
We worship Jehovah exclusively[/QUOTE\]
Then Michiah-Imla said:
Why?
The Apostles worshipped Christ as well:
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy…” (Luke 24:51-52)[/QUOTE\]
But when the Greek verb pro·sky·neʹo is used to refer to the worship of a god or a deity, it is rendered “to worship.” (Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8) In this context, however, the disciples recognized the resurrected Jesus as God’s representative. They rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as to “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. (Luke 1:35; Matthew 16:13-16; John 9:35-38) This was similar to the way that people mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures bowed down when meeting prophets, kings, or other representatives of God. (1Samuel 25:23, 24; 2Samuel 14:4; 1Kings 1:16; 2Kings 4:36, 37) On many occasions, the obeisance done to Jesus expressed gratitude for divine revelation or recognition of divine favor like that expressed in earlier times.(Matthew 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; John 9:35, 38.)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@BARNEY BRIGHT
I’m satisfied with the rendering of “worship” in the King James Bible.
Once you entertain the idea of changing words in your Bible you end up in the clutches of cults.
I’m satisfied with the rendering of “worship” in the King James Bible.
Once you entertain the idea of changing words in your Bible you end up in the clutches of cults.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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