Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[WalterandDebbie]

In another verse, Jesus pray that we are one with God. Does that make us God also? If not, why not?

Sir, to answer your question, if this is what you are asking, in John Seventeen, He is in prayer with His Father praying for Himself, His Disciples, and for all believers. Can you see why? in verses 5, 19, and 26.

John Seventeen

Christ Prays For Himself

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Christ Prays For His Disciples

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Christ Prays For All Believers

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Walter

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I figured you could at least come up with one point, I knew that it wouldn't stand up to Scripture, but I am somewhat disappointed that you could not even come up with anywhere we were wrong in our interpretation. When you do think of something please post it, and I will certainly be glad to discuss it sir.

Did you miss the point on the JW’s blunder on “the nails in his hands” that I brought up?
Please check the thread on that point.

 

[Wrangler]

Sir, to answer your question, if this is what you are asking, in John Seventeen, He is in prayer with His Father praying for Himself, His Disciples, and for all believers. Can you see why? in verses 5, 19, and 26.

Walter, you cannot answer a question with a question. And my primary question was WHAT not WHY. The secondary question was NOT why Jesus is praying but why would it not make us God.

In another verse, Jesus pray that we are one with God. Does that make us God also? If not, why not?

Yes or no, does it make us God? If not, why not?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Walter, you cannot answer a question with a question. And my primary question was WHAT not WHY. The secondary question was NOT why Jesus is praying but why would it not make us God.



Yes or no, does it make us God? If not, why not?

No, Because it is God that has made us, we are made in His image. Now! let me ask you this question, why did you ask that question?

 

[Wrangler]

No, Because it is God that has made us, we are made in His image. Now! let me ask you this question, why did you ask that question?

Because it also applies to Jesus. The "Oneness" doctrine does not make anyone God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Because it also applies to Jesus. The "Oneness" doctrine does not make anyone God.

No, from what you are saying is not biblical if so show me where Sir

 

[Wrangler]

No, from what you are saying is not biblical if so show me where Sir

I just showed you. It is biblical.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then obviously in your eyes I am not a Christian, and of course I feel that way about you sir. Which is of no consequence on either of our parts. The real truth is that one has to worship God in spirit and truth. I say Jehovah is God, and you say Jesus. That is fine, but clearly one of us is not going to make it, according to 2 Thes 1:6-9 I have made my choice to stand on Jehovah's side of the issue, and if I have chosen wrongly, then only I am to blame. You say Jesus suffered and gave a portion of his life for us, whereas Adam died permanently. We say the sacrifice was corresponding, in other words Jesus gave his flesh and blood as a sacrifice forever, he did not take it back sir. Clearly only one of us can be correct in our understanding. Your doctrines do not match the Bible's teachings in my eyes Ron. Again I recommend that you worship and serve the God of Jesus, the one Jesus told satan you should worship. Mat 4:10

Well I have never shied from telling you , ou are lost. I however can defend my "Christianity" straight from the bible. YOu cannot. As long as you reject teh physical resurrection of Jesus, you remain lost and that is a very sad tragedy.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am sorry that I have responded to this twice Ron, but as I am studying for the meeting tonight, this came up, so I thought I would relay it sir:
Some religious leaders teach that Jesus is God. However, read John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

What is the truth? Are God and Jesus the same person?

How does it make you feel to know that Jehovah has sent His witnesses to preach the truth about Him and His Son?

This was recorded for us in our new study book that we take beginning students through. You and I both agree the Bible contains the truth, so what does the Bible really teach Ron.

I have answered you this many times already! It is sad you have some sort of short term memory deficiency.

Jesus is just as divine (god) as His Father) in nature,

Teh Father is above the Son and is the god of Jesus!

the Father is greater in position and authority than the son, but they are equal in divinity. This is what Scxripture declares without reinterpretation by a man made organization!

Please print this page out. I have given you this answer numerous times. If you cannot remember it, prinitng it out will remind you what the bible says about teh Father and son!

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Because it also applies to Jesus. The "Oneness" doctrine does not make anyone God.

Sir, Where in the scriptures does it speaks about what you are saying?

 

[tigger 2]

Because it also applies to Jesus. The "Oneness" doctrine does not make anyone God.

............................................
Examining the Trinity: ONE - John 10:30

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I just showed you. It is biblical.

Scriptures?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Scriptures?

John 10:30....When saying, “I and the Father are one,” did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians say that he did. But at John 17:21-22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”
He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

John 10:30....When saying, “I and the Father are one,” did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians say that he did. But at John 17:21-22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”
He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

Hello Aunty Jane, Amen!

Love, Walter

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued from No.85

Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower
Society's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

"Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens
and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter
whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All
[other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before
all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to
exist."

The word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is not in the
Greek manuscript; viz: the Society's translators took the liberty to pencil it
in; which gives the impression that God's son was His first creation; and
thereafter, the Son created everything else.

NOTE: I heard it from a JW that the Society's translators added "other"
because that's what Col 1:16-17 means to say even though it doesn't say so
in writing. In other words; that portion of the Society's Bible is an
interpretation rather than a translation.

One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of
an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the
trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather
dishonest habit of embellishing the Bible in order to reinforce its line of
thinking.

I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that
the word "other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in
the Greek manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It
comes out like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth,
the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means
of him all things were made to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
discover that Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he
was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out that the Society is
inconsistent with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it into John
1:3 in order to make it read like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not
even one [other] thing came into existence."

FYI: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits brackets
around the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen from the
Watchtower Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek
Scriptures ©1969 that "other" is nowhere to be found in the Greek text.
Caveat Lector.
_

 

[Wrangler]

Sir, Where in the scriptures does it speaks about what you are saying?

I literally just explained it to you.

see this for more clarification. Examining the Trinity: ONE - John 10:30

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I literally just explained it to you.

see this for more clarification. Examining the Trinity: ONE - John 10:30

I have read it, speculation on one's belief which they are entitled to, but you seem to have one thing in mind about Jesus, and that is from what you have said is that He is not who He says that He is, and I said that He and His Father are one.

Is that right Sir?

 

[Keiw]

But now we are Jesus’ Witnesses:

“And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.” (Acts 4:33)



I wonder that myself…



And Jehovah is a witness to Jesus.

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me…” (John 5:37)



Yes, the Father.

“Jehovah” appears no where in the New Testament.



Why?

The Apostles worshipped Christ as well:

“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy…” (Luke 24:51-52)



No.

They are Jehovah’s Witnesses!

And I don’t consider Baptists Christians either, they are Baptists.

Either you are Christian, or something else.

“And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

You seem to have missed facts of reality in your decision--- undeniable fact of true God worship history = From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion who served the true living God, Served the Abrahamic God. They taught, served and worshipped a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah) This is the God taught to Jesus and every bible writer. It was the religion that came out of Rome who screwed it all up and changed God into a trinity at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that God are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily-- true Christians do not do that ever.

 

[Brakelite]

There's nothing wrong with reasoning on the scriptures. Just because you believe that Jehovah's witnesses don't reason

Oh, you reason most assuredly, and that is the problem. Your human reasoning blinds you to the truth. You see the word worship, and declare that when it applies to the Father, it is true worship, but when it applies to the Son, it is some lesser form of obeisance. That is arbitrary decision making based on assumptions regarding your understanding of begotten.

We disagree with many things you teach that you say are scriptural but are not.

Oh, they are scriptural alright, but you make the scripture to say a lie.

The True God didn't procreate with anyone.

He begat. That is the word the holy Spirit used. In every instance in scripture, that weird is used in the context of literal Father child relationships. Every time. You say you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son, but deny it by placing Him on the level of mortal man or the angels. I also believe he was begotten before creation, as scripture clearly declares the Son as the Creator of all things. All things. He didn't create himself. He wasn't created, He was begotten. Nowhere else in scripture does it use the word begotten in the sense of creating.

 

[Brakelite]

It could mean that Brake, but consider some other testimony from the Bible. The appointed times of the nations a prophecy found in Dan 4 is a period of time that God would have no King on His throne. Jesus said it was still going on while he was on earth, it could have ended when he went back to heaven, but according to Scripture Jesus is to reign for 1 millennium and then hand the Kingdom back to his Father. Clearly God's Kingdom has not come yet sir, in fact not even the great tribulation, although we do believe we are very near the start of it.

Do you think it could stand for position? When someone sits at the right hand of someone in a formal setting it usually indicates they are in the number 2 position. A right hand man is next in line, or highest in authority other than the one at who he is at his right. Does this make sense to you Brake Mat 28:18; 1 Cor 11:3

I agree about His position. The Son inherits all things from His Father.
Authority, creative power, everlasting life, His Father's name, children, priesthood and judgment.

Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. 'I do nothing of Myself,' said Christ; 'the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father.' 'I seek not Mine own glory,' but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.

Heb 1:2 God has spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things.
Mark 12:7 "this is the heir, let us kill him."
Jesus identified Himself as God's heir in this parable.
Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father (see also Luke 10:22)
Matt 28:18 All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand

Christ received His equality and position from His Father through inheritance. Created beings such as angels do not have any inheritance... Our inheritance comes through adoption, Christ's inheritance comes through being the true Prince of the universal King.

The Father had made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ His Son, should be equal with Himself; so that wherever was the presence of His Son, it was as His own presence. "This is My Son: hear ye Him". The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Hence why He was known as Michael, the arch angel. Not a created being, but the true Lord of hosts, the commander of the heavenly armies.

The life of the Son is the same life of the Father.

John 5:26 for the Father "has given to the Son to have life (zoen) in Himself"...
"as the Father has life in Himself"
Greek uses three words to express our English concept of life: zoe, bios and psuche.
These appear in our English words for zoo, biology, and psyche.
Bios, biosis, biotikis is reserved for "the things of this common earthly life"

Luke 8:14 The seed is choked by the cares of this life (bios)
2Tim 2:4 the affairs of this life (bios)
1Cor 6:3,4 the things that pertain to this life (bios)
1Tim 2:2 Pray for those in authority that we may have a quiet and peaceful life (bios) in this world.
1Jn 2:10 The pride of life (bios) is not of the Father.
Luke 21:34 drunkenness and cares of this life (bios)
Scripture uses zoe almost exclusively to indicate immortal, eternal life;
the life Jesus had and gives to us.

Matt 19:16 What shall I do to inherit eternal life (zoe)?
Matt 19:17 If you will enter into life (zoe) keep the commandments
John 1:4 In Him was life (zoe)
'In him was life, and the life was the light of men.' It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God.

Acts 3:15 Jesus is the Prince of life (zoe)
John 10:10 He came that we might have life (zoe), not just physical life, but eternal life!
Jesus gives this life to His creatures

ICor 8.6 there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came and through whom we live.

All created things live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of the Son of God....All the human beings in our world take their life from Him. He is the spring, the fountain of life.

The Father's life flows through the beloved Son out to all created beings.

John 6:57 Thus, the Son lives by the Father
1Cor 15:27,28 For He (God the Father) has put all things under his (the Son's) feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him (Son), that God (the Father) may be all in all.
Thus, Jesus is Ruler over all (except His Father).
He is still subject to His Father who is God over all.
The Father is the Source of all things,
the absolute highest authority, even above His Son.

1Cor 11:3 The head of Christ is God
Col 1:18 But Christ is the head of the church…
that in all things He might have the preeminence.
The Father Gives His Power to the Son
God endowed His Son with all the rights, privileges, power and authority of the Godhead.

Matt 28:18 All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth (from the Father)
Heb 1:3 upholding all things by the word of His (the Father's) power
John 17:2 You [Father] have given him [Jesus Christ] power over all flesh
Col 2:9 For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell
Rev 2:27 Jesus received of His Father authority to rule over the nations with a rod of iron
John 5:27 The Father has given the Son authority to execute judgment
Jesus then used the power from His Father to create all things.

The Father Created all things by the Word, His Son, Jesus Christ
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
2 Pet 3:5 by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of and in the water
Acts 17:24 God…made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth
Isa 40:28 the everlasting God, the Lord,
the Creator of the ends of the earth faints not, neither is weary
Isa 45:18 the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it.
The Father accomplished all this creative work by or through His Son, the Word of God. And the Word was God, and became flesh.

JW's fail to recognize the true stature and the true position of the Son of God, their they fall short of recognizing the true sacrifice made by the Father in giving His Son to the human race, (an eternal transaction) and also fall short in recognizing the true depth of love for mankind by the Father and Son through what took place in the incarnation and Calvary.