Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

It makes Him equal in all things except rank. No need to cloud the truth of that statement.

You are the one making a statement that is more than clouded, it is contradictory.

To say "except for all the ways they are not equal, one is equal to another" is just a complicated way of saying they are not equal.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I think they are for the same reason I think trinitarians, binitarians and unitarians are.

Thanks Matt

 

[Wrangler]

You said they say they are Christians, and read the Bible, thank you sir, a classic example of how one forgets previous posts, and how you are basically responding to the immediately previous post.

I really have no idea what you mean by this. Unless multiple posts are quoted, poster are replying ONLY to the post they quote.

 

[Robert Gwin]

you are welcome Sir

Love to you and your family, Walter and Debbie

Do you believe the Bible identifies that one faith WD? What passages help you to identify it?

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the whole Bible. At 17:3 he says his God - our Father - is the only true God.

I agree Wrangler, but I have had people ask me if I had read John's writings, and how I could possibly not believe Jesus is God sir. The actual truth of why is found in 2 Cor 4:4

 

[MatthewG]

Very true, I plant, another waters, but based on the soil we plant in, it is ultimately God that makes it grow.

That is right.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8
Young's Literal Translation

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was giving growth;

7 so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth -- God;

8 and he who is planting and he who is watering are one, and each his own reward shall receive, according to his own labour,

9 for of God we are fellow-workmen; God's tillage, God's building ye are.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Did you miss the point on the JW’s blunder on “the nails in his hands” that I brought up?
Please check the thread on that point.

I looked at all your posts and this is the first time you have stated anything about where you disagree, perhaps you could post the post number. At any rate, we believe Jesus was nailed to the Stauros, what part in particular do you think we blundered sir?

 

[Wrangler]

I agree Wrangler, but I have had people ask me if I had read John's writings, and how I could possibly not believe Jesus is God sir. The actual truth of why is found in 2 Cor 4:4

Great point. How one can possibly read John and conclude he is definitely NOT God is to read the text WITHOUT imposing a trinitarian interpretation unto the unitarian text.

For instance 20:31 explicitly says everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God. So, it is funny to see trinitarians repurpose John’s words.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well I have never shied from telling you , ou are lost. I however can defend my "Christianity" straight from the bible. YOu cannot. As long as you reject teh physical resurrection of Jesus, you remain lost and that is a very sad tragedy.

Great, lets identify God's people by Scripture sir. Lead the way with an identifying passage

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have answered you this many times already! It is sad you have some sort of short term memory deficiency.

Jesus is just as divine (god) as His Father) in nature,

Teh Father is above the Son and is the god of Jesus!

the Father is greater in position and authority than the son, but they are equal in divinity. This is what Scxripture declares without reinterpretation by a man made organization!

Please print this page out. I have given you this answer numerous times. If you cannot remember it, prinitng it out will remind you what the bible says about teh Father and son!

Perhaps you need to explain what Divine means to you Ron, perhaps we agree. And yes my memory banks are pathetic. I am fairly sure I remember my name most of the time, but beyond that not many guarantees sir.

I am sorry to keep asking you Ron, you are absolutely correct, and I appreciate your going to the trouble of posting your belief in detail again. We pretty much agree with the identity of Jehovah and Jesus

 

[Robert Gwin]

I agree about His position. The Son inherits all things from His Father.
Authority, creative power, everlasting life, His Father's name, children, priesthood and judgment.

Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. 'I do nothing of Myself,' said Christ; 'the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father.' 'I seek not Mine own glory,' but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all. And thus through Christ the circuit of beneficence is complete, representing the character of the great Giver, the law of life.

Heb 1:2 God has spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things.
Mark 12:7 "this is the heir, let us kill him."
Jesus identified Himself as God's heir in this parable.
Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father (see also Luke 10:22)
Matt 28:18 All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand

Christ received His equality and position from His Father through inheritance. Created beings such as angels do not have any inheritance... Our inheritance comes through adoption, Christ's inheritance comes through being the true Prince of the universal King.

The Father had made known that it was ordained by Himself that Christ His Son, should be equal with Himself; so that wherever was the presence of His Son, it was as His own presence. "This is My Son: hear ye Him". The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Hence why He was known as Michael, the arch angel. Not a created being, but the true Lord of hosts, the commander of the heavenly armies.

The life of the Son is the same life of the Father.

John 5:26 for the Father "has given to the Son to have life (zoen) in Himself"...
"as the Father has life in Himself"
Greek uses three words to express our English concept of life: zoe, bios and psuche.
These appear in our English words for zoo, biology, and psyche.
Bios, biosis, biotikis is reserved for "the things of this common earthly life"

Luke 8:14 The seed is choked by the cares of this life (bios)
2Tim 2:4 the affairs of this life (bios)
1Cor 6:3,4 the things that pertain to this life (bios)
1Tim 2:2 Pray for those in authority that we may have a quiet and peaceful life (bios) in this world.
1Jn 2:10 The pride of life (bios) is not of the Father.
Luke 21:34 drunkenness and cares of this life (bios)
Scripture uses zoe almost exclusively to indicate immortal, eternal life;
the life Jesus had and gives to us.

Matt 19:16 What shall I do to inherit eternal life (zoe)?
Matt 19:17 If you will enter into life (zoe) keep the commandments
John 1:4 In Him was life (zoe)
'In him was life, and the life was the light of men.' It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God.

Acts 3:15 Jesus is the Prince of life (zoe)
John 10:10 He came that we might have life (zoe), not just physical life, but eternal life!
Jesus gives this life to His creatures

ICor 8.6 there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came and through whom we live.

All created things live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of the Son of God....All the human beings in our world take their life from Him. He is the spring, the fountain of life.

The Father's life flows through the beloved Son out to all created beings.

John 6:57 Thus, the Son lives by the Father
1Cor 15:27,28 For He (God the Father) has put all things under his (the Son's) feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him (Son), that God (the Father) may be all in all.
Thus, Jesus is Ruler over all (except His Father).
He is still subject to His Father who is God over all.
The Father is the Source of all things,
the absolute highest authority, even above His Son.

1Cor 11:3 The head of Christ is God
Col 1:18 But Christ is the head of the church…
that in all things He might have the preeminence.
The Father Gives His Power to the Son
God endowed His Son with all the rights, privileges, power and authority of the Godhead.

Matt 28:18 All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth (from the Father)
Heb 1:3 upholding all things by the word of His (the Father's) power
John 17:2 You [Father] have given him [Jesus Christ] power over all flesh
Col 2:9 For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell
Rev 2:27 Jesus received of His Father authority to rule over the nations with a rod of iron
John 5:27 The Father has given the Son authority to execute judgment
Jesus then used the power from His Father to create all things.

The Father Created all things by the Word, His Son, Jesus Christ
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
2 Pet 3:5 by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of and in the water
Acts 17:24 God…made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth
Isa 40:28 the everlasting God, the Lord,
the Creator of the ends of the earth faints not, neither is weary
Isa 45:18 the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it.
The Father accomplished all this creative work by or through His Son, the Word of God. And the Word was God, and became flesh.

JW's fail to recognize the true stature and the true position of the Son of God, their they fall short of recognizing the true sacrifice made by the Father in giving His Son to the human race, (an eternal transaction) and also fall short in recognizing the true depth of love for mankind by the Father and Son through what took place in the incarnation and Calvary.

You finished with this Brake: JW's fail to recognize the true stature and the true position of the Son of God, their they fall short of recognizing the true sacrifice made by the Father in giving His Son to the human race, (an eternal transaction) and also fall short in recognizing the true depth of love for mankind by the Father and Son through what took place in the incarnation and Calvary.

How so sir?

 

[Brakelite]

I must admit, my carnal nature has not vanished. At times it surfaces with a fury....the temptations which I'm ashamed to say overcome me....sooo, I have difficulty seeing the idea of 'transaction' as an exchange.

I see the gift of the Spirit as a 'force' which does combat with the carnal nature.....and even though I succumb to the carnal nature at different times, the Spirit does not abandon me. I dust myself off and soldier on with new resolve and gratefulness of God's grace including his continued presence.

Oh, totally agree, my experience also, but the transaction I was thinking of was the Son's own transaction in exchanging His former nature for which he sacrificed and taking upon Himself the nature of man.

 

[Brakelite]

Also while I understand you have the right to disagree, you saying to someone that there human reasoning blinds them, well see, it's easy to say that to anyone.

This may come as a surprise to you, but this topic isn't actually about doctrine. It's about knowing and understanding who God is....

JW's fail to recognize the true stature and the true position of the Son of God, thus they fall short of recognizing the true sacrifice made by the Father in giving His Son to the human race, (an eternal transaction) and also fall short in recognizing the true depth of love for mankind by the Father and Son through what took place in the incarnation and Calvary.

 

[Brakelite]

This may come as a surprise to you, but this topic isn't actually about doctrine. It's about knowing and understanding who God is....

Creating a being and sacrificing that which you speak into existence, is a long long way from sacrificing a part of yourself, begotten of the same nature and substance, such as Abraham was willing to do...a type of the sacrifice God made for us.

 

[amigo de christo]

That is right.

1 Corinthians 3:6-8
Young's Literal Translation

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was giving growth;

7 so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth -- God;

8 and he who is planting and he who is watering are one, and each his own reward shall receive, according to his own labour,

9 for of God we are fellow-workmen; God's tillage, God's building ye are.

Paul sure was shutting down the worship of men .
Look at that , HE even says so he that plants and he that waters is not anything , ITS ALL ABOUT GOD .
SO would you mind telling me why so many folks are letting men exalt themselves .
I See folks kneeling before men and kissing rings and calling men MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND
and yet the folks of today WONT DARE touch nor correct that place . NOPE ITS ALL ABOUT HUGS AND UNITY NOW .
The early church shut down the worship of men and taught the church to worship GOD .
EVEN JESUS who was GOOD , told a man WHY do ye call me GOOD , ONLY GOD IS GOOD .
THOUGH we KNOW WHO JESUS IS . THE POINT IS , why are we having unity with such places
that worship angels , men and sound nothing like PETER did .
WHEN peter entered into the house of cornelious
WHAT DID HE SAY to cornelious as Cornelious went to kneel before him .
A , HOLD UP , LET ME GET MY CHAIR and PUT ON MY RING SO YOU CAN KISS IT OR
B . GET UP , I AM A BUT A MAN .
TOO many folks have long loved titles and occasion and the pre eminence . I have come to SHUT IT ALL DOWN .
TIME to return to bibles . Time to learn that CHRIST and the doctrine of those apostels .

 

[MatthewG]

@Robert Gwin,

Do the people in Jehovah witness, ever teach on the Revelation in your congergation?

 

[Brakelite]

You are the one making a statement that is more than clouded, it is contradictory.

To say "except for all the ways they are not equal, one is equal to another" is just a complicated way of saying they are not equal.

But that's not what I was saying is it. That's what you are attempting to intimate. "All the ways in which they are not equal"? I'm not talking about His human nature. I'm talking about His divine nature which He temporarily covered with His human nature and refused to use to His own advantage.
After Christ had condescended to leave His high command, step down from an infinite height and assume humanity, He could have taken upon Him any condition of humanity He might choose. But greatness and rank were nothing to Him, and He selected the lowest and most humble walk of life. The place of His birth was Bethlehem, and on one side His parentage was poor, but God, the Owner of the world, was His Father. No trace of luxury, ease, selfish gratification, or indulgence was brought into His life, which was a continual round of self-denial and self-sacrifice. In accordance with His humble birth, He had apparently no greatness or riches, in order that the humblest believer need not say that Christ never knew the stress of pinching poverty. Had He possessed the semblance of outward show, of riches, of grandeur, the poorest class of humanity would have shunned His society; therefore He chose the lowly condition of the far greater number of the people. The truth of heavenly origin was to be His theme: He was to sow the earth with truth; and He came in such a way as to be accessible to all, that the truth alone might make an impression upon human hearts.

 

[amigo de christo]

Creating a being and sacrificing that which you speak into existence, is a long long way from sacrificing a part of yourself, begotten of the same nature and substance, such as Abraham was willing to do...a type of the sacrifice God made for us.

creating a being . this sounds very familiar . Most folks have created an image of GOD
which is not GOD , and they do many a sacrifice unto this god . Their god sure seems to love SELF .
Satan sleeps not , he knows what he is doing and he knows how to allure and to decieve .
BIBLES UP BELIEVERS .

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not talking about His human nature.

Then you are not talking about our lord and savior Jesus Christ, who Scripture repeatedly says is a man.

For no apparent reason, you are merely asserting equality, pretending Jesus limited his inferiority to God to Jesus' human nature when he made no such qualifying statement.

Jesus never said anything like, "in my humanity, I am less than God, but in my divine nature, I am equal to God.'

 

[Wrangler]

That's what you are attempting to intimate. "All the ways in which they are not equal"? I'm not talking about His human nature. I'm talking about His divine nature

I'm not attempting to but came right out and said. it. You keep repeating the statement that Jesus is unequal to God but say it in a more complicated way.

You are the one making a statement that is more than clouded, it is contradictory.

To say "except for all the ways they are not equal, one is equal to another" is just a complicated way of saying they are not equal.