22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

I did and I showed you how it should be understood. As usual, you did not specifically address anything I said.

If you want me to thoroughly analyze your every word, then change you attitude. Stop being my adversary and begin learning from me. Stop ignoring what I say. Begin to read my posts sympathetically, seeking understanding. I'm not saying you need to agree with me. I'm simply asking you to understand what I say. Until then, all I can give you is short answers.

There will be no doubt when He comes. I don't know what you're talking about. You're not making any sense.

As I say, reading someone with which you disagree takes time and effort, but above all, one must adopt a particular attitude, which provisionally sets aside one's own beliefs so as to "hear" what the other person is actually saying. I wonder if you are doing that.

You're not taking other scripture into account.

There are two ways to take other scriptures into account, a way that leads to further knowledge and a way that leads to error. If one is interested in gaining additional knowledge, one must properly interpret the passage at hand before talking other scripture into account. Paul tells you explicitly that you have no need of anything to be written to you. Why? Because, as Jesus said, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority." In other words, Jesus did NOT give us signs because there are no signs. Such signs are unknown to mankind. Even Jesus doesn't know the times or epochs.

Paul tells you the same thing. With regard to the times and epochs you have no need of anything to be written to you. Why? You should already know that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. Then he tells you that if you are a child of the light and walk in the light, that day will not overtake you like a thief. Why? Because he predicted signal events? No, that day will not overtake you because you are alert and sober. Standing watch is the only way to thwart a thief.

Jesus said we need to watch for signs of His coming as well. Remember, He comes unexpectedly to unbelievers, not to believers. No one knows the day or hour of His coming, but we believers are expecting Him to come. So, even though we don't know exactly when He's coming, we are expecting Him to come. So, it won't catch us completely off guard like it will unbelievers.

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The passage you quoted disproves your view that Jesus gave us signs. Jesus' advice to you and me is to "keep watch." Remember the owner of the household doesn't know what time of night the thief is coming. What does this mean? The thief arrives unannounced, he gives no indication at all as to what hour of the night he will come. He comes at night because the household is asleep and unaware of intruders. The thief gives no signs, signals, or indications of any sort when he will come. The only way to thwart a thief is to stay awake at night. Paul gives us the same advice. The day will not overtake us like a thief if we remain alert and sober.

You say there are no signs of His coming? Where are you getting that from?

I am making sense of the thief metaphor, which illustrates an event that has no prior warnings or visible signs of occurrence. The only way to thwart a thief is to stay awake and keep watch, as Jesus says.

You say we need to watch for signs of the day of the Lord such as a hatred for the truth.

If I said that I misspoke. I meant to say that Paul lists several events that must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

Isn't that what Jesus talked about in relation to His second coming as well?

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Our Lord concludes with this statement, "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." From this we understand the purpose of his predictions, which is encouragement in the light of persecution. His advise is to stand firm in the faith, don't be like those who fall away. These are not meant as signal events because Jesus' word of exhortation is applicable any time his followers suffer for the faith.

This idea of the day of the Lord being in 3 parts is not taught anywhere in scripture. It doesn't fit with what is described in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:11, 2 Thess 2:3-12 and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Why doesn't it fit? You have concluded that the Second Coming and The Day of the Lord are exactly the same thing. But the passages you cited don't make that point. You are reading that conclusion into them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, I'm not. It says He will destroy "all people, free and slave, great and small". That's a way of indicating that it's all-inclusive.

I agree, that is what it says. But I am asking you to consider a larger portion of the immediate context. To remind you, John is talking about warfare and battle. Jesus is leading his army in battle against other armies in battle. In this context, inclusivity is understood situationally, specifying the types of people that will be found among the soldiers. That is, the soldiers will include men from every station of life.

Because you are saying that what Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is the burning up of the heavens, the elements and the earth, can't occur during the lifetimes of His readers. You don't have what he described there as occurring on the day Jesus returns, but instead have it occurring 1,000+ years later. How can it possibly affect anyone reading 2 Peter 3:10-12 in that case?

Peter's focus is not on the Eschaton, though he mentions it. His focus is on the New Heavens and the New Earth, something that all Jesus-followers will experience. And the NHNE remains the hope of all believers down through history, no matter when they live. Even those who live during the Millennial period will keep their hope fixed on the NHNE.

Look at what he said here in particular:

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

What is your understanding of what he said here? Was he not telling his readers that they should make an effort "to live holy and godly lives" in anticipation of the day of the Lord? If the destruction he wrote about doesn't even occur until 1,000+ years after Christ's return, as you believe, then how can what he said apply to anyone who is alive before Christ's return? Why would anyone from the time Peter wrote that up until now try "to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming", if that day can't possibly occur in our lifetimes?

Since everything will be destroyed in this way
Peter reminds his readers of what Jesus often taught his disciples: count the cost; weigh the relative value of everything; keep your mind on things above; search for the treasure that is not subject to moth and decay. We are encouraged to give little weight and value to those things that will not survive into the next age; and we are encouraged to give great weight and value to those things that will survive into the next age. Even if, hypothetically, God brought a believer directly into the next age, skipping the destruction phase, and God miraculously brought him to the next age instantaneously right this minute, that believer will still benefit from Peter's reminder that all the works of the earth will be burnt up. Even those living right now, today, can adopt this attitude. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people should we be? We should be the kind of people who seek the treasure that lasts into the coming age. This is true no matter when the destruction takes place.

Peter isn't asking us to focus on the destruction of this age; he is asking us to place our focus on the next age.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You say "of course", but I think most Premils would say that the "sudden destruction" that Paul references in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occurs on the day Christ returns, not 1,000+ years later. So, that's why I asked you that question. Your interpretation of 1 Thess 5:2-3 is at least consistent with your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. Other Premils seem to think that Paul's "day of the Lord" is a different "day of the Lord" than Peter wrote about. Or they think they're the same "day of the Lord", but somehow don't make the connection that the "sudden destruction" Paul wrote about comes about by way of fire coming down on the entire earth.

I guess I am not your typical Premil, but then, I never made that claim about myself. A few years back, after many years of discussing the subject on-line with people from both sides of the issue, and having faced objections coming from 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Peter 3, I decided to give it a rest for a few years and devote my time to a thorough study of the "Day of the Lord" passages. Much of what I have been saying in this thread is based on many years of study, though I didn't mention that at first because I don't want anyone's belief to be authority based. I mention it now only to say that if I can study this out for myself and draw my own conclusions, then so can anyone else. It is because of my study that I am not your typical Premillennialist.

In my view, based on my studies, I believe Paul refers not to the eschaton, in 1 Thessalonians 5, but another, local destruction. This is the subject of a wider discussion but a cursory look at the Book of Revelation will reveal two different periods of time when judgment comes in terms of the earth and sky. The Trumpet Judgments almost align with the Vial Judgments except, and this is key for this discussion, the Trumpet judgments only affect a third of the earth and sky. For example, Revelation 8:7 mentions that a third of the earth was burned up and a third of the trees. I think that the vial judgments of Revelation 16 are more ubiquitous and affect the entire planet.

Nonetheless, according to both John and Paul, Jesus returns at the Seventh Trumpet, which was preceded by judgements that only affected a third of the earth, not the entire planet. When Paul says that "sudden destruction will come up them" he refers to these judgments.

This is the wrong approach. The New Testament shines light on the Old Testament for us, not the other way around. You are not allowing Peter and Paul to teach you how you should be understanding the future day of the Lord. They both made it very clear that the day of the Lord is the day Christ returns and they both indicated that global destruction will occur on that day. You need to adjust your understanding of the Old Testament accordingly instead of trying to change what they taught or saying they were just giving a summary. They were not giving a summary, they were giving an explanation of what will happen to unbelievers on the day Christ returns. It doesn't require a lot of detail. Paul explained that they will be destroyed without having any way of escape and Peter explained that the destruction will come by way of fire. What more needs to be said about that?

I do think the New Testament shines light on the Old Testament, just not in the way you do. I think the New Testament explicates the Old Testament, but I don't believe that NT authors have changed the meaning of the OT or that they "spiritualize" the text.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you keep saying this? The scope goes beyond just the soldiers, as I have shown you.

Your interpretation is only valid if we are allowed to ignore the context.

Only doctrinal bias can keep someone from acknowledging this.

I do not suffer under doctrinal bias; I suffer under hermeneutical limitation. I practice a form of exegesis called "authorial intent", which is the best and most sure way of arriving at the meaning of the text. In other posts, I have given you sound reasons for my interpretation, which considers that the meaning of the text is understood within the context.

Look at this verse:

Revelation 13:16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

Do you think any unbeliever is excepted here in terms of the scope of who receives "a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads"?

Let's look at the broader context. Revelation chapter 13 has been divided into two parts: 1) Verse 1, a beast rises from the sea, 2) another beast comes up out of the earth. For this reason, we are left with an important interpretive questions. The beast from the sea is different than the beast from the earth. So we are left to discover the the practical difference between the two. I believe, as do many others, that the "earth" symbolically represents the region of Palestine where Israel existed during the time John wrote the book of Revelation. Israel and her people are known as "the people of the land." The beast from the Sea, then, represents a ruler that comes from foreign lands, across the ocean as it were. Because of this symbology, it seems reasonable to ask, who is being forced to take a mark? Everyone in the world or just those who live in Palestine? I haven't yet landed solidly on an answer.

In the context, I believe John is saying that no social class will be excluded from the decree to take the mark. Believers will obviously refuse to take the mark, but believers are not excluded from the decree. But even here, the context informs our understanding of Revelation 13:16. Those who practice authorial intent will resist the temptation to bring this meaning to Revelation 19.

How about this verse:

Revelation 19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!”

Do you think this verse is only telling some of God's servants to praise God or all of His servants to praise God? Clearly all of them, right? That's what phrases like "great and small" or "free and slave" imply: that literally all people who fit the context of the verse are being included.

Even here, the meaning of the phrase comes from the context. John is saying that among all of God's servants, no social class will be excluded. The same is true of the later text. Among all the soldiers that fight the Lord on that day, no social class will be excluded. It does not follow from this that everyone on earth will fight the Lord.

 

[The Light]

No one has yet debunked the grammatical antecedent of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 as Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:25.

Sorry haven't been following along and don't have time to read what has been covered. But maybe I can help.

Messiah the prince is Jesus. Jesus gets cut off by His death after 69 weeks. That means the 70th week of Daniel is not complete as only 7 days of the 7 year 70th week has occurred.

The people of the prince that shall come is talking about the people of an antichrist, the rider on the white horse, 1st seal, that will destroy Jerusalem and the third Temple that is not yet built. This rider on the white horse is the second beast of Revelation 13 and is a king of the north. The rider on the white horse will cause the world to worship the first beast, THE Antichrist who was and is not and will come again from the pit. Hope that helps.

 

[WPM]

He will rule for 1000 years. He will start to rule after He returns. Yep.

Premil evidence consists of them repeating what they have been taught. This does not cut it. It never will.

 

[WPM]

This is not true. Amillennialists spiritualized the OT in order to teach an erroneous doctrine. Any time a group of people "spiritualize" the scriptures or teach that Scripture has a secret meaning that only they know, this is a clear sign of cult mentality at work.

No Amil is going to take lectures from you. Please keep your insults and ad-hominem to yourself. This is what Premils do when they are cornered. The fact is, it is you who is a master spiritualizer on the NT. Little is literal in the climactic Scriptures. It must be symbolized away.

 

[WPM]

These passages are not only talking about the Second Advent, they are talking about the day of the Lord, which is an era of time not a single day.

The day of the Lord is only sudden for some, which means that it isn't climactic. Peter is talking about the Eschaton, which comes at the very end of the Day of the Lord as we see in Revelation 20.

I didn't claim it proved Premillennialism. I maintain that a diversity of outcomes disproves your claim that the DOL is climactic. It isn't.

Your posts have gradually got shorter and shorter and increasingly more evasive because you have no answer to those two climactic Scriptures we have discussed. You never will, because they forbid Premil. You know it! You failed to address my main points. You have to do that. I will repost.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 are talking about what happens at the coming of Christ, not some imaginary time 1000+ years after the second coming. What they describe is sudden. It is climactic. It involves wholesale destruction. To deny that is to deny the actual wording of the text, which couldn't be clearer (to the indoctrinated mind).

There are two distinct groups who experience two completely different outcomes when Jesus comes. The fact is: there has only ever been two types of people upon the earth. Why would you be shocked that their expectation and experience are diametrically diverse? I am not sure why you would think that that in any way proves Premil. It doesn't.

The apathy or mocking of the wicked relates to this all-consummating coming. The hope of Christians relates to this same coming. The writers are reassuring believers of their final deliverance and instant glorification when Jesus comes. They are also warning the ungodly that this appearance will catch them unexpectedly. It will involve the complete destruction of them and the old arrangement, and the complete rescue of the redeemed and the complete replacement with a new perfect arrangement.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

 

[covenantee]

Sorry haven't been following along and don't have time to read what has been covered. But maybe I can help.

Messiah the prince is Jesus. Jesus gets cut off by His death after 69 weeks. That means the 70th week of Daniel is not complete as only 7 days of the 7 year 70th week has occurred.

The people of the prince that shall come is talking about the people of an antichrist, the rider on the white horse, 1st seal, that will destroy Jerusalem and the third Temple that is not yet built. This rider on the white horse is the second beast of Revelation 13 and is a king of the north. The rider on the white horse will cause the world to worship the first beast, THE Antichrist who was and is not and will come again from the pit. Hope that helps.

You are correct, bro, Messiah the Prince is Jesus the Christ, and He is the prince of Daniel 9:26, and He is the "he's" of Daniel 9:27.

The 70th week is not decapitated; it is gloriously contiguous with the previous 69.

Christ is not antichrist.

I defer to Bro. Chris for the proofs, which are affirmative, confirmative, consistent, and harmonious with the message of a clear majority of the Christian Church through a clear majority of its history.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your posts have gradually got shorter and shorter and increasingly more evasive because you have no answer to those two climactic Scriptures we have discussed.

My posts are short, yes. But they are not evasive. I simply have developed my skills to such a degree that I can spot the central point in a large belabored post, filled with a lot of superfluous and non-relevant information.

 

[WPM]

My posts are short, yes. But they are not evasive. I simply have developed my skills to such a degree that I can spot the central point in a large belabored post, filled with a lot of superfluous and non-relevant information.

No. The opposite is the truth. You have learned to duck around the multiple contradictions with Premil.

 

[The Light]

You are correct, bro, Messiah the Prince is Jesus the Christ, and He is the prince of Daniel 9:26, and He is the "he's" of Daniel 9:27.

The 70th week is not decapitated; it is gloriously contiguous with the previous 69.

Christ is not antichrist.

I defer to Bro. Chris for the proofs, which are affirmative, confirmative, consistent, and harmonious with the message of a clear majority of the Christian Church through a clear majority of its history.

Well if you are paying attention I have so far dismantled everything Bro Chris has brought forward. And I suspect that will continue. He seems to have a habit of disagreeing with the written Word of God. Bad habbit.

 

[dad]

Premil evidence consists of them repeating what they have been taught. This does not cut it. It never will.

No. The understanding rests on principles. Solid bible fundamentals. We know that the tribulation is the wrath of God, and we do not go through the wrath. We know we return with Him. We know when He comes He will take us to be with Him, not come down to us. etc.

 

[dad]

Also, it would be good if anyone that is a JW identify themselves honestly as such rather than 'christian' here.

 

[WPM]

No. The understanding rests on principles. Solid bible fundamentals. We know that the tribulation is the wrath of God, and we do not go through the wrath. We know we return with Him. We know when He comes He will take us to be with Him, not come down to us. etc.

No. You force millions of believers to undergo the wrath of God in your theology. That is absurd. It is wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

After Jesus confirmed the new covenant with His sacrifice, the Jews continued performing the animal sacrifices which showed how they didn't understand what Jesus did for them and they didn't accept Him. That resulted in their temple being physically destroyed in 70 AD.

That is not what Daniel 9:27 states. That is your own version of Scripture. The Atonement is removed, not set in place.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

There will be no Atonement available during this time of AoD. This is Revelation 13, where Satan is given total control for 42 months. There is literally no Atonement nor grace. To get saved, one must chop one's head off, to avoid the mark. The mark is given as God removes one's name from the Lamb's book of life.

The choice is between removing one's head or removing one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Both choices are drastic and final. There is no take back. In Revelation 10 time is declared up for Salvation. Time is up for Adam's punishment of sin and death. The Day of the Lord will soon start wherein only righteousness can exist. No sin and no Satan.

But if necessary, these 42 months will happen so some can make that choice, to cut off their head, and save their soul. That is why the Atonement is confirmed with the many to see who is left on earth to make that choice.

You have to explain this all away, and turn it into a first century Jewish point. Revelation 10 through 20 is not about the first century, and neither is Daniel 9:27. It relates directly to the Second Coming, and the final harvest when Jesus and the angels are on the earth, per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25:31.

Your interpretation means the abomination of desolation has been in place for 1992 years, splitting the 7th week. Your week has not been finished if Daniel 9:27 is about the first century. Putting this as a hold on the OT economy, means the OT economy will be reinstated at some point when the week is finished. That is the point of cessation in the middle of a week, no?

Daniel 9:27 has to do with the week of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is a time of celebration that is interrupted when the Atonement is confirmed. Some souls are still left after the final harvest. These will be harvested via beheading.

 

[dad]

No. You force millions of believers to undergo the wrath of God in your theology. That is absurd. It is wrong.

Strange imagination you have there. I guess you feel no pressure at all to be clear or articulate.

 

[WPM]

Strange imagination you have there. I guess you feel no pressure at all to be clear or articulate.

You obviously have no answer to the truth here. Why not take ownership of your error?

 

[dad]

You obviously have no answer to the truth here. Why not take ownership of your error?

Once again, random blather. Remember, posters, if you are Jehovah Witnesses please identify yourselves here.

 

[WPM]

Once again, random blather. Remember, posters, if you are Jehovah Witnesses please identify yourselves here.

JWs are Premil. So are Mormons. You will find them in your own camp.