Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Webers_Home]

Continued From No.983

.Question: Do Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was raised from the ead?

Were John Que and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.

In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.

"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible Understanding,
1971, p.920)

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel corpse thus restoring him
to his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.

FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_

 

[Keiw]

If God's name is Jehovah or Yahweh or anything else, mine is Mary Poppins..
That's why when Moses asked him his name he replied "I am that I am".
And check this-
"Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, 'What is your name, so that we may honour you when your word comes true?'
He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding" (Judges 13:17-18)
See, God and celestial beings are too big to be concerned with names..

I shared with you. There is no statement-i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT-- Catholicism translated it as that--The Hebrew scholars who know their language better than any trinitarian say it translates- I will be what i will be. Verse 15 says--This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel YHWH(Jehovah) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, the God of Jacob has sent me to you. So then i guess your name is Mary Poppins. You should really check into facts before speaking on a matter.

 

[Keiw]

Not sure what you mean by this but there is a lot of Greek texts of the New Testament left and books that you can buy that have photo copies of them. Best to go back to the scriptures in the original tongue. Thanks to the dead sea scrolls we have some Hebrew texts and some old Greek texts from the Septuagint.

Only Catholicism translating remained when the protestants translated. That was in the 1300,s long before the papers you mentioned were found.

 

[Keiw]

.


Were John Que and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.

In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.

"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible Understanding,
1971, p.920)

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel corpse thus restoring him
to his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.

FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_

God did send Michael. Anyone who ever read the bible knows God sent another, he did not come. Gods master worker of Proverbs 8 is the one God sent. The one who was by Gods side during the creation process, the one whom God created all other things through= his master worker. He tells all he was created at Prov 8.

 

[Grailhunter]

Only Catholicism translating remained when the protestants translated. That was in the 1300,s long before the papers you mentioned were found.

Not sure what point your making here. So rather than assume you can expand upon what you are saying.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Only as a ghost.

A ghost??? Seriously? What is God? What are angels? Are they ghosts?

There is no such thing as a “ghost”....holy or otherwise. The word “ghost” does not appear in a single passage of scripture.....do you know why? Because the word is of German origin...."Geist” (poltergeist) which means a spirit. 'Ghosts' are supposedly the spirits of the dead that hang around on the earth, but there is nothing in the Bible to even suggest such a thing. There are no disembodied souls ever mentioned....but there are demonic spirits that can impersonate dead people, giving the ignorant a deceptive view of death.......so calling God’s spirit a “Ghost” is meant to convey the idea of a third person of the trinity, which is not found in the Scriptures either.

There is no Holy Ghost because, although God is a spirit, (invisible) he is not a ghost......and there are no angels who have ever appeared to man except in physical form. God’s law forbade communication with spirits because of the demons. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

Jesus was resurrected in spirit form, but like other spirit beings mentioned in the scriptures, these could appear in physical form....like Gabriel who appeared to Daniel, and 500 years later, he appeared to Mary.

Peter tells us that Jesus was raised as a spirit...not as a human. He did not take back the body he sacrificed.

 

[Dropship]

..Exodus verse 15 says--This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel YHWH(Jehovah) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac, the God of Jacob has sent me to you. So then i guess your name is Mary Poppins. You should really check into facts before speaking on a matter.

Depends what Bible version you're looking at mate, the vast majority of them don't call God 'Jehovah', they call him 'God' just as he wanted..
Here are some examples-


Exodus 3:15 - Bible Gateway

 

[Dropship]

..So then i guess your name is Mary Poppins. You should really check into facts before speaking on a matter.

Wait a minute Bert, the feedback from my fans in forums all over internetland shows I must be doing something right..
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How about it Mr. Goodfella?

 

[Robert Gwin]

.
Continued From No.975

• 1Thess 4:16-17 . .The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a
commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet,

I'm going to revise a portion of that passage slightly in order to bring out a
point.

"with the archangel's voice"

No, it doesn't say the archangel's voice, rather, it says "an" archangel's
voice-- viz: a nondescript arch angel --so I think It would be a mistake to
assume that passage is referring to a specific arch angel where none
is named because according to Dan 10:13, there's more than one, viz:
identifying the arch angel in 1Thess 4:16-17 as the Michael spoken of in
Jude 1:9 would be just as arbitrary as saying the archangel's voice is that
of the Gabriel spoken of in Luke 1:19.

* Actually Gabriel is the better choice because he was the angel tasked
with announcing baby Jesus' conception, the child's ascension to David's
throne, and its position in God's genealogy.
_

Likely you believe as we do that it is Jesus leading the charge Weber, and we certainly do not think he will be coming with a voice of lesser authority than he has been given. I realize what the Bible says sir, but remember all we have are versions, and therefore the translators render the words at their discretion. To us, that is just one more piece of evidence that Jesus is Michael. You recognize that it was Michael and his angels that fought satan and the demons and cast them from heaven, correct Rev 12:7-9. Do you not think he will be leading the charge in removing him and his followers to the earth as well? Remember the prophecy at Gen 3:15 of whom it will be that will crush satan.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If only you did do the will of YHVH . I would prefer you leave those vowels out unless you can prove those are the right vowels!

By7 rejecting the physical resurrection of Jesus- as Paul wrote, your faith is in vain and you are yet in your sin!

1 Corinthians 15:16-18
King James Version

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


And let me repost JOhn 2 for you denier of the resurrection.

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Let me emphasize what Jesus was speaking about. Maybe ytou will get it this time:

BUT HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I speak English as do you sir. Jehovah is God's name in English. He has approved of it, as even your preferred version renders it. Your translators tried to leave His name out, however they were unable, I don't think for one minute they were to stupid and overlooked it, Jehovah never leaves Himself without witness sir, and he desires His name to be spread throughout the earth as Ex 9:16 shows us, therefore knowing in advance that His people as well as those who was not that the KJV of the Bible would be the main Bible used for centuries.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Once again you have made yourself a liar by twisitng my words! I never said Satan is not real! I said he is not a real god, a false god. But He is very real. when will you pay attention to my words and speak truth?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

So then who does your watchtower teach satan is Ron?

 

[Robert Gwin]

And the Holy Spirit raised Jesus as it is written in Romans 8.

And Jesus raised His own body from teh grave as He declared in JOhn 2!

But if you wish to do the will of God (meaning proper works)

This is it:

John 6:28-36
King James Version

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


Obedience flows from believing in Hiim and His physical resurrection. to deny thephysical resurrection is to make all your deeds meaningless.

Since you teach Jesus took back what was given in our behalf, what is your hope sir?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Reasoning reality clearly shows. If one is given a name above others, the giver is superior. And at Heb 1:3-4 it is clear--If he wasnt given the name above others he is equal to the angels. That name is never above Gods name. God is superior. See in verse 3, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the majesty= God, his God and Father.

that is not what is written. what you say is merely a conclusion drawn by human reasoning and not Scripture.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I speak English as do you sir. Jehovah is God's name in English. He has approved of it, as even your preferred version renders it. Your translators tried to leave His name out, however they were unable, I don't think for one minute they were to stupid and overlooked it, Jehovah never leaves Himself without witness sir, and he desires His name to be spread throughout the earth as Ex 9:16 shows us, therefore knowing in advance that His people as well as those who was not that the KJV of the Bible would be the main Bible used for centuries.

How do you know God has approved of it? did He come down and tell you??? You believe the lies the Watchtower vomits about trinitarians but readily accept the trinitarian created name of YHWH. YOU really don't know.

And now the most important name in the universe is Jehoshua, in English--JESUS!

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and to acknowledge tis name as above all names- brings glory to God the Father.

Stop believing the lies of Arius, Origen and C.T. Russell and the indoctrinators of the Watchtower!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So then who does your watchtower teach satan is Ron?

Well we would have to have a watchtower in order for me to know wouldn't I?? as we do not have a centralized force fed magazine that we have to read and obey- we rely on Gods Word!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since you teach Jesus took back what was given in our behalf, what is your hope sir?

Well if you read Gods Word with faith, you would know that it is the blood that bought the forgivenss of sins, not His body.

And you would know that god promised to not leave His body in the grave.

and that Jesus said He would take His body back.

YO uneed to decide which to believe- the philosophical ramblings of the man made watchtower organization, or the Word of God as is written!

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. See His body was not left- No story of God destroying it.

Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


BUT HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!!!!!!!!!

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9:11-14
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Jesus laid His body down and took it back again ! Now who do you wish to believe- God or the Watchtower?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From 1021

• 1Thess 4:13-14 . . Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant
concerning those who are falling asleep in death; that you may not sorrow
just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died
and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through
Jesus; God will bring with him.

That passage is somewhat curious in that it speaks of Jesus accompanied by
a number of dead folks. Well; I could be mistaken; but I'm pretty sure that
in the JW religion, people cease to exist when they pass away.
_

 

[marks]

How do you know God has approved of it? did He come down and tell you??? You believe the lies the Watchtower vomits about trinitarians but readily accept the trinitarian created name of YHWH. YOU really don't know.

And now the most important name in the universe is Jehoshua, in English--JESUS!

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and to acknowledge tis name as above all names- brings glory to God the Father.

Stop believing the lies of Arius, Origen and C.T. Russell and the indoctrinators of the Watchtower!

Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

What else would you suppose Paul was saying?

One thing I love about these debates is that I can see how all the arguments distill into simply points, and statements of Scripture which are either believed or disbelieved. And whether additions are made, such as this nonsense that were Jesus (actually Michael I wish they'd stop lying about what they believe) to physically rise it would mean taking back the sacrificed by removing it from the altar.

This is nowhere in Scripture, and was fully invented to support their false teaching of their false religion. And follow the thought through for just a moment . . . Jesus is NOT still hanging on the cross!! His body had ALREADY been removed when they buried Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since you teach Jesus took back what was given in our behalf, what is your hope sir?

Jesus' body was removed from the cross before He was buried. Your objection is moot.

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

Thank you for your responses.