Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[marks]

Continued From No.983


Were John Que and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.

In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.

"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible Understanding,
1971, p.920)

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel corpse thus restoring him
to his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.

FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_

BTW . . . great posts, I've been reading along, lots of great info!

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

If you examine the actual Scripture, you will notice lowercase-lord is denoted.

What else would you suppose Paul was saying?

Master. Jesus was glorified by God to be everyone's master. Again, 1 COR 15:23-28 explicitly exclude God falling under Jesus' authority. The simple reason is that Jesus is not God and forever remains under God's authority - even though God gave him all authority in heaven and Earth.

Sylvia Brown says there are many heavens, where each one is ruled by a different son of god. The man we know as Jesus of Nazareth was given dominion over our locale. I'm cool with that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

What else would you suppose Paul was saying?

One thing I love about these debates is that I can see how all the arguments distill into simply points, and statements of Scripture which are either believed or disbelieved. And whether additions are made, such as this nonsense that were Jesus (actually Michael I wish they'd stop lying about what they believe) to physically rise it would mean taking back the sacrificed by removing it from the altar.

This is nowhere in Scripture, and was fully invented to support their false teaching of their false religion. And follow the thought through for just a moment . . . Jesus is NOT still hanging on the cross!! His body had ALREADY been removed when they buried Him.

Much love!

Anytime any organization has to go into detailed explanation ofwhy their stance is supported by the bible but not explicit in the bible- Every one should stop and beware. They are almost always based on falsehood.

Like Jesus=Michael
Jesus rose an invisible spirit creature

etc.etc. I could go into christian sects as well but we are discussing with a JW so we shall keep with that.

 

[Wrangler]

Anytime any organization has to go into detailed explanation ofwhy their stance is supported by the bible but not explicit in the bible- Every one should stop and beware. They are almost always based on falsehood.

Agreed, like claiming Jesus is God.

 

[marks]

If you examine the actual Scripture, you will notice lowercase-lord is denoted.

Koine Greek was written with uncial letters which we would call all capitols. Miniscules (like our lower case) didn't come til much later. Capitolization is a translational feature.

I'm writing it this way to connect to the OT passage Paul is quoting from. Are you thinking that Paul misappropriated that passage to wrongly apply to Christ? Or was Paul quoting the OT passage to apply to Christ?

Sylvia Brown says there are many heavens, where each one is ruled by a different son of god. The man we know as Jesus of Nazareth was given dominion over our locale. I'm cool with that.

Is that so? I had no idea! This is what you think? I had no idea about that either!

Is Sylvia Brown a JW teacher? I'm not familiar with her.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sylvia Brown says there are many heavens,

This Sylvia Browne?



I'm not into reincarnation, and as far as "channelling", well, beware!! Evil spirits are behind that.

Much love!

 

[Keiw]

Not sure what point your making here. So rather than assume you can expand upon what you are saying.

Catholicism put errors in to fit false council teachings. The protestants had no clue when they translated, they did however, once allowed to read the bible in the 1300,s, saw that Catholicisms own translating still exposed them as false religion. And ran from them and translated their own versions, but had no clue to the errors.
In the 1960,s or 70,s the JW leaders were allowed in to the Catholic archives, they came out with proof that--the spirit, water and blood were the 3 witness bearers, Catholicism had the Father, son and holy spirit in their translation to mislead. And all other translations as well. Other translations fixed that error. But the JW leaders weren't allowed back in once exposing that error to mislead. There are many more to fit false council teachings-You see, Jesus was never with that religion, his adversary started it to mislead. Called the son of destruction( peredition) at 2Thess 2:3= the great apostasy.

 

[Keiw]

Wait a minute Bert, the feedback from my fans in forums all over internetland shows I must be doing something right..
For example-
Spannerose - "I would like you to know that the result of reading your posts I am left with the desire to pick up my bible for the first time in years"
ChildofLight - "So good to read your responses, some are quite witty and made LOL"
HenryS - "You are brilliant in finding appropriate phrases. "
Kierri - "That was one of the best explanations I've ever heard!"
Haimehenmmli - "I LOVE IT MATE!!! I'm going to put it into my files, with some of my other favorites, from you"
Ainglkiss - "You write so well. Keep up the great work"
MonkGirl - "Wow, thank you! That is really comforting...and all I really needed to hear!"
JeffC - "HELL YEAH! PREACH IT BROTHER, THE REALITY WAY! (LUV YUR STYLE....)
Evenflow- I just LOVE this post You have made me smile BIG TIME this morning. Good for you and what a great attitude you have to life xx"
Apple Pie - "Come on over to 4church, we could do with your input and your humour"
Lillian - "please come back..it's nice having you on the board"
Chrysalis55- "Just want to say, I love your posts and your messages not only inspire me, sometimes they make me laugh"

How about it Mr. Goodfella?

There are about 2 billion being mislead by a house divided( 34,000 trinity religions) they will not stand. Joel Osteen tickles ears with lies, it will get those no where with God. God will not accept any worship but in spirit and truth-John 4:22-24

 

[Keiw]

Depends what Bible version you're looking at mate, the vast majority of them don't call God 'Jehovah', they call him 'God' just as he wanted..
Here are some examples-

View attachment 26661
Exodus 3:15 - Bible Gateway

Again you are mistaken of the facts. Every scholar on earth knows 100%--Every spot in the OT where GOD or LORD all capitols is, the tetragramoton is in the originals, that is YHWH, or YHVH=Jehovah. God inspired his name in nearly 6800 places in the OT, removed by satans will to mislead. The OT is quoted in about 200 spots in the NT and the name belongs there as well. They had no right to removed what God willed to be there. Here is a prime example of how the misleading occurs
Joel 2:31-32--Those who call on the name of YHWH(Jehovah) will be saved---Quoted at Acts 2:21--but since Lord is in your OT, Lord is in your NT and all will call on the name Jesus is error. Acts2:16-proves 21 is the quote from Joel.

 

[Keiw]

that is not what is written. what you say is merely a conclusion drawn by human reasoning and not Scripture.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Heb 1:3-4 is clear. He would be equal to the angels if not given a name above their names. Psalm 45:7--Jesus has a God-partners=angels.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I sometimes have to smile when your responses are so confident...as if what you accuse others of doing cannot apply to yourself....like these scriptures you quote....

that is not what is written. what you say is merely a conclusion drawn by human reasoning and not Scripture.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

What conclusions are you drawing and who told you that what you believe is the truth?
Those scriptures may well be pointing fingers at you.

You believe the lies the Watchtower vomits about trinitarians but readily accept the trinitarian created name of YHWH. YOU really don't know.

And now the most important name in the universe is Jehoshua, in English--JESUS!

LOL...you believe someone too.....what if the doctrines you were taught are lies, but so old that people just blindly accept them without checking to see if they are scriptural or merely grafted into ambiguous verses? Where do they really come from....do you know?
The trinity was unknown to Israel because Jehovah never presented himself to his chosen nation as a triune being, and since God does not change, why would the God of Israel suddenly change into a threesome? Jesus was Jewish after all, so he would never have claimed to be God.

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and to acknowledge tis name as above all names- brings glory to God the Father.

Philippians 2 is on often quoted scripture to support the trinity but when read carefully, it does the opposite....

Here it is from your favored KJV.....
"5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Reading that in an Interlinear we see some discrepancies......first of all with verse 6....this is not what the Greek says at all.
It should read.....
"who hos, although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos."

He did NOT think that equality with God was something to be grasped (or seized). And "existing in God's form", simply meant being a spirit....which is the form that John told us that God is.
John 4:24...
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (KJV)

In Philippians....
Verse 7....He took on "the form of a servant" and verse 8 says he "became obedient as far as death".
If Jesus is God, to whom was he a servant? (Acts 4:27)....to whom was he obedient? Does God need to obey himself?

Verse 9, "God highly exalted him" Can God highly exalt someone who is his equal? Can he be "given a name that is above" what he already has as "the Most High over all the earth"? (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

Verse 10...all are to bend the knee to Jesus so that something would take place....what is that? So "that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." If he is God, why does the glory not go to himself?
The glory as well as the worship was always directed to the Father....not the son. He did nothing of his own originality but only what the Father taught him. (John 8:28-29; John14:10-13)

Stop believing the lies of Arius, Origen and C.T. Russell and the indoctrinators of the Watchtower!

Are you serious? Perhaps it is you (who, along with the majority, readily accept what Jesus regarded as blasphemy) who needs to stop paying attention to the teachings of the 'weeds' of Jesus parable?

Didn't Jesus say that "few" are on the road to life? Where does that leave the "many"? (Matthew 7:13-14)
Christendom is a mirror image of apostate Judaism.....and they had the same author who twisted everything that Jehovah taught his nation through Moses....and the "prophet like Moses" who was to come. (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19)

None of the doctrines that originated in the corrupted RCC has any place in Christian teaching because they are all based on the doctrines of men. (Matthew 15:7-9) Every one of them can be traced back to Babylon. The devil has lied to Christendom for centuries.....are you yourself a victim?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. See His body was not left- No story of God destroying it.

This is clearly saying that Jesus' "soul" would not be left in sheol......but since a body without the breath of life ceases to be a soul....there was nothing in the tomb but the bandages Christ's body was wrapped in.

He was raised as a spirit because he needed to return to his Father in order to present the value of his sacrifice to his Father, (Hebrews 9:24) as well as to "prepare a place" for his elect, (John 14:1-3) who would die the same death and receive the same resurrection as he did.....(Romans 6:3-5)
"He was put to death thanatoō in the flesh sarx but de made alive zōiopoieō in the spirit pneuma" (1 Peter 3:18 Mounce Interlinear)

If he was raised in the flesh, the scriptures would have said so. He was manifested in the flesh, but spirit beings mentioned in the Bible have that ability. They always appeared in human, or physical form.

 

[Aunty Jane]

.
Continued From 1021

• 1Thess 4:13-14 . . Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant
concerning those who are falling asleep in death; that you may not sorrow
just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died
and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through
Jesus; God will bring with him.

That passage is somewhat curious in that it speaks of Jesus accompanied by
a number of dead folks. Well; I could be mistaken; but I'm pretty sure that
in the JW religion, people cease to exist when they pass away.
_

You could be mistaken about a lot of things....

During this "time of the end", the elect do not sleep in death....only the "other sheep" do. As they pass away, the "chosen ones" go straight to their new assignment. If you had quoted the whole passage, you would see that.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16...
"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

Jesus is here already directing all the things he told his true disciples to do. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) Jesus is doing what David foretold in Psalm 110:1-2...he is "ruling in the midst of his enemies" and directing a global preaching work that was mirrored by the faithful man Noah, before that world was brought to a finish. (Matthew 24:37-39)
People are still not listening....

Those destined for a role in heaven will all be present and accounted for when Christ comes as judge.....he told us that.

The "first resurrection" is for the elect. (Revelation 20:6) The general resurrection of the dead will take place once Jesus and his angelic forces have cleansed the earth of all wickedness and false religion....they will be brought back to "a new earth" ruled by a "new heavens". ( 2 Peter 3:13)

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.1037

• John 1:14 . . So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we
had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son
from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

The Greek word from which "undeserved kindness" is derived is cháritos;
which itself is derived from charis (khar'-ece)

"undeserved kindness" isn't a translation of charis/charitos; rather, it's the
Watchtower Society's own opinion of what they think those words ought to
mean. The literal meaning is graciousness.

John Que and Jane Doe Witness are being deprived of viewing some very
pleasant aspects of the only-begotten Son's personality by interpreting
charis to mean undeserved kindness because graciousness says some
wonderful things about not only the flesh that the Word became; but also
about the Father from whom the Word came.

Webster's defines "graciousness" as; kind, courteous, inclined to good will,
generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial,
affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.

* Cordial stresses warmth and heartiness

* Affable implies easy to approach, and readiness to respond pleasantly to
conversation or requests or proposals

* Genial stresses cheerfulness and even joviality

* Sociable suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others

* Generous is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz: magnanimous,
kindly, and liberal in giving

* Charitable means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz:
benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.

* Altruistic means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others;
viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels
good to do so.

* Tactful indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain
good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary
conflict.

Here's a couple of passages from the NWT where the Society's translation
committee had the academic decency to let charis/charito speak for
themselves instead of butting in to tell people what they think those words
ought to mean.

"Keep on teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, praises to
God, spiritual songs with graciousness" (Col 3:16)

"Let your utterance be always with graciousness." (Col 4:6)

NOTE: The claim that the only begotten son is somehow undeserving of
kindness is of course 110% false. Worthiness is in every fiber of Christ's
being. (Dan 7:13-14, Matt 3:17, Phil 2:8-11, Rev 5:1-14, Rev 19:11)
_

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Heb 1:3-4 is clear. He would be equal to the angels if not given a name above their names. Psalm 45:7--Jesus has a God-partners=angels.

Wrong again !

Hebrews 1
King James Version

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire


this is speaking of Jesus' incarnation and that He was made better than the angels, in His Incarnation.

the questions are rhetorical with the answer being none.

Just lik in His preincarnate days, since Emmanuel took on human flesh- the angels of God worship Him!

Angles worship HIm! If Jesus was not God- that would be idolatry.

 

[Wrangler]

Angles worship HIm! If Jesus was not God- that would be idolatry.

Would it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What conclusions are you drawing and who told you that what you believe is the truth?
Those scriptures may well be pointing fingers at you.

Well you are welcome to tear apart my ansers and see where you think I am making my own conclusions. Otherwise tht is an irrelavent post.

I get answers from Sripture without commentary

LOL...you believe someone too.....what if the doctrines you were taught are lies, but so old that people just blindly accept them without checking to see if they are scriptural or merely grafted into ambiguous verses? Where do they really come from....do you know?
The trinity was unknown to Israel because Jehovah never presented himself to his chosen nation as a triune being, and since God does not change, why would the God of Israel suddenly change into a threesome? Jesus was Jewish after all, so he would never have claimed to be God.

and what if the moon is really made up of cream cheese? What ifs serve little to nothing without a foundation ot base them on.

If you think I have false doctrine I have listed- point them out. I can't answer a what if.

Well you rproblem is god has laways been a three in one god. Maybe unrevealed to most Israelis, but they had enough clues.

The Shma- Hear O Israel Jehovah your Elohim is one Jehovah- Totally nonsensical grammar and thinking if Jehovah was only one person.

But one here is "echad" which in Hebrew is the one used often for "compound one"

Elohim is plural
Adaonai is plural.

God said let "us" make man in "our image" We are not made in the image of God and angels

Many other OT clues, that awaited teh NT to clarify!

But even Stan himself gives us a clue! Satan is the great imitator and counterfeiter. IN the OT days when he established his many pagan religions, most of them has a TRIAD of head gods with the demi gods being the angels etc. Triad is a counterfeit for the biblical trinity./

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is clearly saying that Jesus' "soul" would not be left in sheol......but since a body without the breath of life ceases to be a soul....there was nothing in the tomb but the bandages Christ's body was wrapped in.

He was raised as a spirit because he needed to return to his Father in order to present the value of his sacrifice to his Father, (Hebrews 9:24) as well as to "prepare a place" for his elect, (John 14:1-3) who would die the same death and receive the same resurrection as he did.....(Romans 6:3-5)
"He was put to death thanatoō in the flesh sarx but de made alive zōiopoieō in the spirit pneuma" (1 Peter 3:18 Mounce Interlinear)

If he was raised in the flesh, the scriptures would have said so. He was manifested in the flesh, but spirit beings mentioned in the Bible have that ability. They always appeared in human, or physical form.

Well Hebrew did not have a distinction for the immortal soul. So sentinet creatures were called a soul!

The Nt separates body )soma) soul (psuche) and spirit (pneauma)

But the fact jesus body was resurrected was declared by Himself!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

BUT HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!

Why sincere Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Watchtower lie over the Words of Jesus is a mystery.

 

[Triumph1300]

Jesus was Jewish after all, so he would never have claimed to be God.

He said: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

What does that mean to you?

 

[Keiw]

Wrong again !

Hebrews 1
King James Version

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire


this is speaking of Jesus' incarnation and that He was made better than the angels, in His Incarnation.

the questions are rhetorical with the answer being none.

Just lik in His preincarnate days, since Emmanuel took on human flesh- the angels of God worship Him!

Angles worship HIm! If Jesus was not God- that would be idolatry.

verse 4 proves my point. If God didnt make the name Jesus above other names he would be equal to the angels---one cannot reason it any different.
No the angels did not worship him, they bowed in obesiance to Gods appointed king. Its the same Greek word used for worship to God. Jesus has a God. God does not have a God.