If Jesus was the One who took away sins from the world?

[MatthewG]

Okay @Earburner.

I believe those people where real live breathing human beings who were the 144,000. That must be the difference we see. Sure you can interpret it your way, but the same situation for me.

God is good. Thank you for taking time to share even though we might see differently, the important thing is to continue to love one another despite differences.

It’s such a great freedom we have in Christ to decide to choose how one has a relationship with God, and that is a very personal and subjective experience.

It also leaves freedom for a person to be able to look at scripture and decide for themselves hopefully by the spirit to be lead towards the truth.

 

[Jack]

Preterists are gonna be SHOCKED!

 

[Earburner]

I believe those people where real live breathing human beings who were the 144,000. That must be the difference we see. Sure you can interpret it your way, but the same situation for me.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.
And that certainly applies to who the 144,000 were, and in what age of dispensation they had lived in. They were all of Israel, who had died in faith, beginning with Abraham upto Jesus' resurrection and ascension. Malachi 3:16, Revelation 7:4-8.

Do you recall Simeon in Luke 2:25-35? He was an Israelite of faith, by which God prophesied through, after the birth of Jesus.
Did God forget him, and His words of faith, who was in long waiting for the Promise of Messiah/Savior to come, and DID SEE it??
No, He did not.

So then, in all their deaths, did God forget Israel of faith and leave them behind, having no desire to save them also, through the blood of Christ?? Absolutely not!
Hebrews 2[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.
The symbolic 144,000 faithful of Israel, before Christ's first appearance, are saved by Christ after His Ascension/Pentecost, as shown in Revelation 6:9-11 and in Revelation 7:4-8.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe God truly divorced the whore Israel, in 70Ad. Thank you @Earburner.

 

[Earburner]

I believe God truly divorced the whore Israel, in 70Ad. Thank you @Earburner.

I Agree 100%, Amen!!
However, ALL of Israel who were of faith, PRIOR to Jesus' resurrection and Ascension, of His coming as the Promised One, have been saved/sealed also by God's Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, until the Day of Redemption. Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 7:4-8.

Edit: what we see in the verses of Revelation above, is that of Malachi 3:16 having been also fulfilled, on the Day of Pentecost. Those who were written in the book of "Remembrance" have been given the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, and therefore they ARE now in the Book of Life, who is Jesus.
They are the symbolic 144,000.

 

[MatthewG]

That’s called being saved to the heavenly kingdom, and sometimes I believe the book of life even had to do with Israel. I don’t believe the number is symbolic, though you keep suggesting that it is. What I do believe is that there will never be and end to the heavenly kingdom that God and the Lord Yeshua established.

I may be wrong though perhaps you are right, I still look at the 144,000 as the very first bride church which he promised to return to.

All I know is the kingdom will always have people come in to it by faith.

 

[BeyondET]

@BeyondET redemption sounds more like a second chance than simply forgiveness.

Ephesians 1:7 - In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

However maybe I’m wrong.

Can redemption come before forgiveness doesn't sound logical. Forgiveness allows the redemption. In my opinion that's what the verse is basically saying.

 

[MatthewG]

Can redemption come before forgiveness doesn't sound logical. Forgiveness allows the redemption. In my opinion that's what the verse is basically saying.

thank you for sharing your opinion.

 

[Behold]

"Taking the sin away" basically means that he enabled people to be freed from their sins.

Jesus shed His blood and died for Sin. To remove them. To redeem the world of their Sin.
For God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE His Only Begotten for the sin of us all....
Jesus is the "one time ETERNAL sacrifice for SIN".. which makes Jesus the only "way" to Heaven.

John 14:6

"Jesus BECAME SIN"....because GOD made Him to be so.... 2 Corinthians 5:21

So, you have your sin or Jesus has them.

And unless all your sin is FORGIVEN and done away with by JESUS on the Cross, you will not go to heaven, because you will remain separated from God by your sin.
This is why God came down here to DIE as Christ on the Cross for the sin of the world, and did.
= .and the "ministry of Reconciliation" we are to share...

2 Corinthians 5:19

Is the Gospel of the Grace of God.

 

[MatthewG]

@Earburner the reason that I believe that the 144,000 is not symbolic because the sealed were from the 12 tribes of Israel.

144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


So it hard to get those sealed 12 tribes to fit in my knowledge of being a Jewish person from the tribes.

Everyone who is a believer now today - is part of the heavenly Kingdom, and these 144,000 were some of the very first to go on to the heavenly Kingdom.

They survived the great tribulation by having been taken out of it. At least that is what I tend to believe, which could be wrong but it is hard to change my mind in all honesty.

 

[Scott Downey]

Can redemption come before forgiveness doesn't sound logical. Forgiveness allows the redemption. In my opinion that's what the verse is basically saying.

Paul the Apostle is writing to the church only, not the unbelieving world, and Paul is describing our salvation in Christ, how this came to be as explanation, and also as an encouragement, and an eternal consolation.

Such people chosen in Him from the beginning, will also trust themselves to the Lord Jesus after they hear the gospel to be sealed until the Day of redemption, that will be the choice they will make, God's grace is irresistible at the time of God's choosing for them do that.
Really the point is God first chooses us before time began to be His people, a part of His family, then at the appropriate time in our life, we trust ourselves to Christ and only then are we sealed for salvation.

Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Behold]

Everyone who is a believer now today - is a part of the Heavenly Kingdom .

1.) The born again, have been.......>"Translated FROM.....darkness...........>TO LIGHT">

2,) "God exists IN LIGHT".

3.) "Jesus is the LIGHT of the world. because "God caused the LIGHT to shine out of DARKNESS"... "and has shined into our Hearts".

4.). The born again are "Children of the LIGHT""

5.) "Christ IN YOU....the Hope of Glory".. (Glory is Heaven)

6.) Jesus said..>"The Kingdom of God is within you".. (see #5)

7.) The Born again are "Seated in Heavenly places, In Christ"... (see #5 and #6)

8.) "As Jesus IS....... so are the born again in THIS world."""


2 Timothy 2:15

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for sharing @Behold.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here Paul also describes our salvation to Timothy
2 Timothy 1
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[Earburner]

That’s called being saved to the heavenly kingdom, and sometimes I believe the book of life even had to do with Israel. I don’t believe the number is symbolic, though you keep suggesting that it is. What I do believe is that there will never be and end to the heavenly kingdom that God and the Lord Yeshua established.

I may be wrong though perhaps you are right, I still look at the 144,000 as the very first bride church which he promised to return to.

All I know is the kingdom will always have people come in to it by faith.

The number 144,000 is symbolic.
Are you thinking that God had a cut off point of 12,000, just because it's a nice even number?
And therefore, out each tribe of Israel, God limited how many of the faithful of Israel were allowed in, so that it would be exactly equal to144,000?
Of course it would be sadly unfortunate and quite unjust of God for each of the 12 tribes, if their numbers exceeded 12,000. Would He cast away the excess? You be the judge.

There will be an end to the Heavenly Kingdom, as far as increased numbers go.
However the Heavenly Kingdom, which is all Born Again believers, resurrected and changed into immortal beings in the likeness of Christ, they shall have no end into eternity.

 

[Scott Downey]

The number 144,000 is symbolic.
Are you thinking that God had a cut off point of 12,000, just because it's a nice even number?
And therefore, out each tribe of Israel, God limited how many of the faithful of Israel were allowed in, so that it would be exactly equal to144,000?
Of course it would be sadly unfortunate and quite unjust of God for each of the 12 tribes, if their numbers exceeded 12,000. Would He cast away the excess? You be the judge.

There will be an end to the Heavenly Kingdom, as far as increased numbers go.
However the Heavenly Kingdom, which is all Born Again believers, resurrected and changed into immortal beings in the likeness of Christ, they shall have no end into eternity.

v27 does say only a remnant Of Israel shall be saved, according to Isaiah.
v 26 though is about the gentile nations.
Romans 9:26-28
New King James Version

26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

 

[Scott Downey]

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Which was proven true, only a few of the Jewish people believed in Christ

 

[MatthewG]

The number 144,000 is symbolic.
Are you thinking that God had a cut off point of 12,000, just because it's a nice even number?
And therefore, out each tribe of Israel, God limited how many of the faithful of Israel were allowed in, so that it would be exactly equal to144,000?
Of course it would be sadly unfortunate and quite unjust of God for each of the 12 tribes, if their numbers exceeded 12,000. Would He cast away the excess? You be the judge.

There will be an end to the Heavenly Kingdom, as far as increased numbers go.
However the Heavenly Kingdom, which is all Born Again believers, resurrected and changed into immortal beings in the likeness of Christ, they shall have no end into eternity.

Nah to far fetched for me.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe God gave just judgement on the Nation of Israel for killing His Son, @Earburner. Those of those twelve tribes were the bride of Christ, that is how I believe.

People may see that as unjust but for me personally I do not believe that God does anything unjust.

 

[Earburner]

I believe God gave just judgement on the Nation of Israel for killing His Son, @Earburner. Those of those twelve tribes were the bride of Christ, that is how I believe.

People may see that as unjust but for me personally I do not believe that God does anything unjust.

The number 144,000 is symbolic of completion.

God who is love, worked with the free wills of men in Israel, helping them to "reason with Him", so that they would repent towards Him.
If no more came to repentance in a tribe, then that would be the number of completion that came to Him from that tribe.

144,000 is a symbolic number of completion, for all of Israel that shall be saved out of the OC. age of God's dispensation, which was determined to be ended in 490 years, by the prophetic time of "70 weeks (of years)" determined by God upon them. KJV (only) Daniel 9:24-27.
(BTW, "church-ianity" has that prophecy so messed up, it's just plain pathetic.)

God is not a dictator, whereby He rejects those that came to Him in faith, just because the magic number of 12,000 for each tribe of Israel had been completed. The number of 12,000 or 144,000 was NOT the "determining" factor, but rather TIME WAS. And that time was determined for them, being 490 years "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince". KJV (only)- Daniel 9:25.