22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

So, what does the time of the Gentiles refer to? What marks the beginning of the time of the Gentiles? What marks the end of the time of the Gentiles?

Scripture shows it last for 42 months, same time as 3.5 year tribulation that starts when Daniel's future AOD takes place, the future second coming marks the end

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[WPM]

Scripture shows it last for 42 months, same time as 3.5 year tribulation that starts when Daniel's future AOD takes place, the future second coming marks the end

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

 

[Truth7t7]

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

Please explain your belief, waiting?

 

[WPM]

Please explain your belief, waiting?

I am quoting Scripture. What is this and what occurs here?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't want to have to guess as to how exactly you think Genesis 12-17 supports your view. Is it too much trouble for you to quote scripture and highlight the parts that you think support your view?

For the umpteenth time, I believe God when He told Abraham he would produce the biological nation Israel--Abraham's actual descendants forming into a nation of faith. And He then extended that promise to include many nations of faith.

How does that support my view? All of these things have happened, and yet have failed in the present and past ages. They have not yet come to fulfillment. Unless you think God lies, He will produce the fulfillment of these promises to Abraham after the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The Prophets of the Bible proclaimed the coming of the Messianic Kingdom in which all of these things will come to pass. They will never fail again, as they have in the present and past ages.

You mean a day is as a thousand years (you said "year")?

Yes, thank you. The verse doesn't prove anything, but provides an allusion to what many have thought God's timetable would be. Sounds about right, to me?

You rarely provide scriptures. You seem to think that your words are on the same level as the words in scripture. That is obviously not the case.

Yes, when what I saw reflects truth that is in Scripture I don't always need to quote it. It's truth I'm after--not just quoting Scriptures. Lots of people quote Scriptures and still do not tell the truth.

His spiritual kingdom isn't here on the earth? Why did Paul say that we have been brought into His kingdom then?

Paul said our inheritance is with Christ in heaven. We on earth have signed onto this Salvation. We own it. But we won't actually inherit this Kingdom until it comes.

Do you deny what Paul taught here? Do you deny that you are in Christ's kingdom now?

None of us are in the Eschatological Kingdom, which *is not yet here!* You're just talking about owning a down payment on our Salvation, which of course we all have, if we're truly saved. A down payment is *not the whole thing!*

Do you understand that He dwells spiritually within us?

Don't you understand that God's dwelling in us through the Spirit is *not the inception of God's eschatological Kingdom!*

So, I completely disagree with you that His spiritual kingdom is not on the earth. It most certainly is!

You're entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that the *eschatological Kingdom* is not yet on the earth. The Kingdom of heaven is still in heaven, and is indeed spiritual. As such, it is able to impact the earth through salvation and through judgment. But it is *not yet here!*

He said His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). So, why do you contradict that by saying that His kingdom will come with observation? It won't come with observation until He returns and delivers the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-24).

When Jesus was here the Jewish leaders tried to pass themselves off as representatives of God's Kingdom. They had been called to such, but they had failed. They had owned a temporal form of the Kingdom, but in failing to live by the Law they lost the Kingdom of God to the Gentile world.

These Jewish leaders were not able to see the Kingdom of God "with observation." They were looking for deliverance from Rome instead of looking to their own need for repentance. They utterly failed to see in Jesus the King over that future Kingdom.

You are denying the obvious here. Matthew 25:31-46 very specifically indicates that all people will be gathered before Him when He comes with His angels.

Jesus comes with his angels, and *then* he gathers the nations. Perhaps this comes during the course of the Millennium? I don't at all see it happened *at the 2nd Coming!*

Matt 25.31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

What this says is that at the time Jesus returns he will *sit on his throne.* It does not say he will immediately gather all nations. It does not say they had already been gathered for that moment.

Obviously, if someone is going to gather nations, it is going to take time. I surmise that when Jesus is sitting on his throne, ruling over the world during the Millennium, he will be in the process of gathering nations. Some will become Christian nations. Some will become pagan nations.

But the point is, God will be selecting who is righteous and who is not. And at the end of the Millennium he will dispatch the wicked to their place in outer darkness. But the righteous he will give a place in his fellowship forever.

You call this bias. I call it just as I see it.

 

[jeffweeder]

But the point is, God will be selecting who is righteous and who is not. And at the end of the Millennium he will dispatch the wicked to their place in outer darkness. But the righteous he will give a place in his fellowship forever.

It will not work out this way because when Jesus comes with his Angels, he will gather us and glorify us in a twinkling of an eye, not a thousand years later.
The goats will suffer eternal separation on this same day, as Jesus comes in vengeance when he comes to glorify us.


2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

On this great day we will be seen as one Holy nation, one flock under the banner of Jesus Christ in Gods household.

It's not going to be like the closing ceremony at the Olympic games when many nations appear holding their own flags in celebration.

God bless.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am quoting Scripture. What is this and what occurs here?

Is This Your Explanation Of Scripture Provided In Support Of Your Preterist Claims In 66-70AD Fulfillment?

I Feel Your Pain, Smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

For the umpteenth time, I believe God when He told Abraham he would produce the biological nation Israel--Abraham's actual descendants forming into a nation of faith. And He then extended that promise to include many nations of faith.

How does that support my view? All of these things have happened, and yet have failed in the present and past ages. They have not yet come to fulfillment. Unless you think God lies, He will produce the fulfillment of these promises to Abraham after the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The Prophets of the Bible proclaimed the coming of the Messianic Kingdom in which all of these things will come to pass. They will never fail again, as they have in the present and past ages.



Yes, thank you. The verse doesn't prove anything, but provides an allusion to what many have thought God's timetable would be. Sounds about right, to me?



Yes, when what I saw reflects truth that is in Scripture I don't always need to quote it. It's truth I'm after--not just quoting Scriptures. Lots of people quote Scriptures and still do not tell the truth.



Paul said our inheritance is with Christ in heaven. We on earth have signed onto this Salvation. We own it. But we won't actually inherit this Kingdom until it comes.



None of us are in the Eschatological Kingdom, which *is not yet here!* You're just talking about owning a down payment on our Salvation, which of course we all have, if we're truly saved. A down payment is *not the whole thing!*



Don't you understand that God's dwelling in us through the Spirit is *not the inception of God's eschatological Kingdom!*



You're entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that the *eschatological Kingdom* is not yet on the earth. The Kingdom of heaven is still in heaven, and is indeed spiritual. As such, it is able to impact the earth through salvation and through judgment. But it is *not yet here!*



When Jesus was here the Jewish leaders tried to pass themselves off as representatives of God's Kingdom. They had been called to such, but they had failed. They had owned a temporal form of the Kingdom, but in failing to live by the Law they lost the Kingdom of God to the Gentile world.

These Jewish leaders were not able to see the Kingdom of God "with observation." They were looking for deliverance from Rome instead of looking to their own need for repentance. They utterly failed to see in Jesus the King over that future Kingdom.



Jesus comes with his angels, and *then* he gathers the nations. Perhaps this comes during the course of the Millennium? I don't at all see it happened *at the 2nd Coming!*

Matt 25.31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

What this says is that at the time Jesus returns he will *sit on his throne.* It does not say he will immediately gather all nations. It does not say they had already been gathered for that moment.

Obviously, if someone is going to gather nations, it is going to take time. I surmise that when Jesus is sitting on his throne, ruling over the world during the Millennium, he will be in the process of gathering nations. Some will become Christian nations. Some will become pagan nations.

But the point is, God will be selecting who is righteous and who is not. And at the end of the Millennium he will dispatch the wicked to their place in outer darkness. But the righteous he will give a place in his fellowship forever.

You call this bias. I call it just as I see it.

God fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ as Galatians 3:16 clearly teaches

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Randy there's nothing wrong with dreams, and imagination, because postings such as this are full of them

 

[WPM]

Is This Your Explanation Of Scripture Provided In Support Of Your Preterist Claims In 66-70AD Fulfillment?

I Feel Your Pain, Smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

 

[Truth7t7]

So, what does it mean that Israel is "led away captive into all nations"? And, to where are they lead captive and for how long?

I have answered this already, It takes place in the future as seen in Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2, and I don't have a direct interpretation at this time concerning what it means or how long

I'm waiting for your explanation?

 

[WPM]

I have answered this already, It takes place in the future as seen in Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2, and I don't have a direct interpretation at this time concerning what it means or how long

I'm waiting for your explanation?

I didn't think so. It is talking about what happened after AD 70. We have been in the time of the Gentiles ever since. Simple!

 

[Randy Kluth]

It will not work out this way because when Jesus comes with his Angels, he will gather us and glorify us in a twinkling of an eye, not a thousand years later.
The goats will suffer eternal separation on this same day, as Jesus comes in vengeance when he comes to glorify us.


2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

On this great day we will be seen as one Holy nation, one flock under the banner of Jesus Christ in Gods household.

It's not going to be like the closing ceremony at the Olympic games when many nations appear holding their own flags in celebration.

God bless.

Well Jeff, there's 2 ways to look at it...at least 2 ways. As I said, it doesn't appear to me that Jesus comes back and already has people gathered together for judgment. On the contrary, Jesus in coming back immediately puts people to death who follow the Antichrist, and spares others, because at the very least some Christians survive to be caught up in the Rapture.

So when are the nations gathered together? I don't really know because we are told that the 1st thing Christ does after returning is he will sit on a throne, which I assume will be a heavenly throne presiding over events on the earth. This will fix Christianity in the world, as well as Israel, once she has become a Christian nation.

Peace will prevail, as the Prophets said, and the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. If there is no Millennial Age, all of this is so much nonsense.

So my assumption is that the Lord in some sense gathers the nations together on the issue of Christianity so that individuals can be judged at the end of the Millennium. This is just how Rev 20 reads.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ as Galatians 3:16 clearly teaches

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Randy there's nothing wrong with dreams, and imagination, because postings such as this are full of them

You're annoying like an insect. Take your poison somewhere else. I'm not interested in your rude comments. I'm only interested in honest discussions.

 

[Truth7t7]

You're annoying like an insect. Take your poison somewhere else. I'm not interested in your rude comments. I'm only interested in honest discussions.

No poison whatsoever, just biblical truth

God fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ as Galatians 3:16 clearly teaches

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Randy there's nothing wrong with dreams, and imagination, because postings such as this are full of them

 

[Truth7t7]

I didn't think so. It is talking about what happened after AD 70. We have been in the time of the Gentiles ever since. Simple!

I Disagree, The Time Of The Gentiles is a future
event of armies surrounding Jerusalem, that will be a sign that precedes the Lord's second coming as seen in Luke 21:24-28 below

Has this been started in the reformed preterist 66-70AD Jerusalem, and been in the making 2,000 years and waiting "No". This is just reformed preterist eschatology falsely bridging the gap from 66-70AD Jerusalem, to the future second coming of Jesus Christ

The reformed teaching above is comparable to the Pre-Mill crowd's phony 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel and waiting, no different

Jesus Is The Lord

"Future Unfulfilled"

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No poison whatsoever, just biblical truth
Randy there's nothing wrong with dreams, and imagination, because postings such as this are full of them

Take your poison elsewhere. Your only interest seems to be in stoking hostility.

 

[WPM]

I did you are ignoring them.
I disagree because unlike you I know that such things were commanded by God.
This is not a problem for my view, because unlike you, I don't need the Bible to tell me that 2 + 2 = 4. It goes without saying, that when God says he will bring his people into the land and they will keep his commandments, this includes animal sacrifices, which are included among the commandments. With regard to Jewish praxis, God expects obedience of ALL of his commandments, ordinances, and statutes. God doesn't care about your goofy distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law.

Just a pragmatic question: do you understand how we might consider your promotion of the restoration of the whole ceremonial sacrifice system as heretical?

 

[jeffweeder]

Well Jeff, there's 2 ways to look at it...at least 2 ways. As I said, it doesn't appear to me that Jesus comes back and already has people gathered together for judgment.

Today is the day of salvation Randy, so people have to sort themselves out before his coming, by choosing to believe or not. There comes a deluding influence so some believe a lie that finally sorts out where one will spend eternity.
satan throws everything including the kitchen sink into this unrestrained period before the Lord comes in judgment.

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness [rebellion against divine authority and the coming reign of lawlessness] is already at work; [but it is restrained] only until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.



This reinforces the scripture I posted to you yesterday from the 1st chapter of 2THESS.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

 

[Randy Kluth]

Today is the day of salvation Randy, so people have to sort themselves out before his coming, by choosing to believe or not. There comes a deluding influence so some believe a lie that finally sorts out where one will spend eternity.
satan throws everything including the kitchen sink into this unrestrained period before the Lord comes in judgment.

Yes, Satan is active, but we're just talking doctrine here. None of it is satanic. The idea that people will be making choices in the Millennial Age in no way distracts from the importance that people make choices for Christ today.

The issue concerns not what choices people will make, but rather, when those choices will be made--in the present age or in the future age? None of us will argue how important it is to make the right choices today! But we're talking about whether the world and history will end at the 2nd Coming or not?

So in discussing this particular passage in Matt 25, the question remains: is Jesus coming to a gathering, or is he coming to be situated on a throne? Or perhaps both?

My argument is that the choices made in the previous age are dealt with *at his Coming.* He does this by defeating and destroying Antichrist. And he delivers Christians by giving them immortality and rule in the age to come. That "rule" implies mortal humanity still exists and needs to be ruled over.

This then explains, for me, why Jesus comes to be situated on a throne, to rule over mortal humanity. The world and history continues, and requires regulation and control so that God's promises to Abraham can now finally be fulfilled. In the present age this hasn't happened because Satan's activities have interrupted and obstructed this. But in the age to come, Satan will be bound, and everything that has been prepared for in the present age will finally be fulfilled.

So in what way does Jesus gather the nations while he is situated on the throne, governing the world and history? The whole sense of "gathering" has to do with restoration, such as when Israel was regathered following their captivities. The world has been shredded with troubles, misfortunes, and judgments. In the age to come, nations will be restored to peaceable relations and lasting status as nations.

They will be gathered before the Lord in the sense that the knowledge of God will at that time to spread throughout the world, "as the waters cover the sea." They will be forced to make choices. And the same choices people are making today about salvation will also take place in that time period. Even more, they will be making choices with Satan no longer obstructing them, and with the knowledge of God abundantly surrounding them. It will be an opportunity to bring the entire world under judgment, with no more obfuscation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Take your poison elsewhere. Your only interest seems to be in stoking hostility.

Your claims are false, I share biblical truth

Randy it's apparent you aren't pleased with your Zionist claims being exposed

God fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Jesus Christ as Galatians 3:16 clearly teaches

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End) Nahum 1:5

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.