A Form of godliness

[Episkopos]

There are two levels to be understood here. There is a huge difference between a godly man and a man of God. It is good to be wise but God hides His ways from the wise. Wisdom is on more than one level....hochmah and toushiyah. The latter is an eternal wisdom of which the first is only a part. One has to do with a human accomplishment (not a bad thing in and of itself) and the other with a weakness that God fills in Himself. "Toushiyah" can mean "God of my weakness".

So then the "form" of godliness is that which is possible by men that gets in the way of what is possible by God.

Through Christ ALL becomes possible. This puts a stumbling-block before human wisdom.

 

[Rich R]

Actually, you need only accept the saying of Scripture.

Of course, this style of discussion goes nowhere. Call it mystical, whatever, that doesn't change the sayings of Scripture.

Much love!

Where does the scriptures say 3 is 1?

You discount non-trinitarians because they don't thing 3 is 1. The only way 3 could be 1 is by mysticism. It sure isn't natural. That's what I meant.

 

[marks]

Well, Jesus started out in life just like the rest of us. He knew nothing about obedience or disobedience. He came into this world knowing nothing and learned about life as he was taught. Part of that teaching was to be obedient to God.

That's my best answer. I would be interested to get your take.

Post 34.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2 Wisdoms . . .

James 3:13-18 KJV
13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

God called Himself "US" and "OUR".

Speculation, offsetting 5,000 times God is referred to using singular pronouns.

in the NAME of

Friend, in the NAME of all that is holy and good (not names); this is normal language usage.

 

[Rich R]

There are two levels to be understood here. The is a huge difference between a godly man and a man of God. It is good to be wise but God hides His ways from the wise. Wisdom is on more than one level....hochmah and toushiyah. The latter is an eternal wisdom of which the first is only a part. One has to do with a human accomplishment and the other with a weakness that God fills in Himself. "Toushiyah" can mean "God of my weakness".

So then the "form" of godliness is that which is possible by men that gets in the way of what is possible by God.

Through Christ ALL becomes possible. This puts a stumbling-block before human wisdom.

Then it's possible that I can murder someone and suffer no consequences in this life of the one to come? I don't think so.

The verses that say all things are possible have a context. They don't mean any nonsensical idea can be true.

Post 34.

Much love!

I assume you are talking about preexistence.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

Maybe it doesn't mean something actually existed? Maybe it was in God's mind that something should be?

 

[marks]

Maybe it doesn't mean something actually existed? Maybe it was in God's mind that something should be?

Or maybe what it says is real?

I'm going with that.

John 17:4-5 KJV
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Are you thinking that Jesus was confused here? That He thought He had glory with His Father, but in reality He didn't?

It seems to me that denial of the plain saying of plainly stated Scripture is a poor way to search for truth. Personally, I think this passage shows what is true, that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was, that He didn't at the time of speaking, and that He was looking forward to returning to that glory.

Which exactly harmonizes with the Philippians passage, that He was in the form of God, but emptied Himself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Christianity Board Statement of Faith

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

Why are you here?

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Jack:

Speculation, offsetting 5,000 times God is referred to using singular pronouns.

LOL!

This is a direct quote of Genesis 1:26-27 from the New World Translation (emphasis mine):

"Then God said: 'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.' And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them."​

In the first sentence, verse 26, God refers to Himself plurally. In the second sentence, verse 27, He refers to Himself in the singular. Both of these things are incontrovertible. Unlike many passages in the NWT, I really like the Watchtower's English rendering here. So, incontrovertibly, there is some kind of plural personal quality to be attributed to God, even by Jehovah's Witnesses, yet they still vehemently deny it. Even so, there can be no other explanation... except possibly that Moses was drunk and didn't hear God correctly...

:)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Rich R]

Or maybe what it says is real?

I'm going with that.

John 17:4-5 KJV
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Are you thinking that Jesus was confused here? That He thought He had glory with His Father, but in reality He didn't?

It seems to me that denial of the plain saying of plainly stated Scripture is a poor way to search for truth. Personally, I think this passage shows what is true, that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was, that He didn't at the time of speaking, and that He was looking forward to returning to that glory.

Which exactly harmonizes with the Philippians passage, that He was in the form of God, but emptied Himself.

Much love!

What I was trying to say was that, given Ephesians 1:4, maybe things that are said to preexist mean something other than something exists before it actually exists. God chose you before the foundation of the world.

 

[Rich R]

Christianity Board Statement of Faith

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

Why are you here?

Much love!

Am I not welcome? Sounds like that's what you're saying.

 

[marks]

What I was trying to say was that, given Ephesians 1:4, maybe things that are said to preexist mean something other than something exists before it actually exists.

And maybe the sun is blue, but, it's not.

I'm not talking about "something said to pre-exist".

John 17:4-5 KJV
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why do you ask?

Do you care that you are violating the terms of the website you yourself agreed to when you joined? Does that seem honorable to you? A demonstration of integrity?

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

And maybe the sun is blue, but, it's not.

I'm not talking about "something said to pre-exist".

John 17:4-5 KJV
4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Much love!

I was mistaken. But to my defense I might say that usually when someone brings up John 17:4-5 they are saying Jesus was alive before the world was, hence preexistence. Do I understand you to take them some other way?

 

[marks]

Am I not welcome? Sounds like that's what you're saying.

I'm not saying anything, I'm asking the question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christianity Board Statement of Faith

The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you uphold these?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I was mistaken. But to my defense I might say that usually when someone brings up John 17:4-5 they are saying Jesus was alive before the world was, hence preexistence. Do I understand you to take them some other way?

No one is saying something was said to pre-exist.

Jesus, however, spoke of His Own existance before the world was.

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

Do you care that you are violating the terms of the website you yourself agreed to when you joined? Does that seem honorable to you? A demonstration of integrity?

Much love!

The rules say nobody can attack someone else's character. You say I'm dishonorable and lack integrity. They also say we must stay on topic. I don't recall anything in the OP about honor and integrity.

 

[Rich R]

No one is saying something was said to pre-exist.

Jesus, however, spoke of His Own existance before the world was.

Much love!

That fact that Jesus supposedly talked about his existence is not preexistence? How do you define preexistence?

 

[Rich R]

I'm not saying anything, I'm asking the question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christianity Board Statement of Faith

The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you uphold these?

Much love!

No. Bye.

 

[marks]

The rules say nobody can attack someone else's character. You say I'm dishonorable and lack integrity. They also say we must stay on topic. I don't recall anything in the OP about honor and integrity.

I asked the question. You decide for yourself. You've sidestepped this entirely.

And your topic is "attacks against the deity of Christ and the Trinity", isn't it? So I've responded, and my response is in step with this forum. Or so it seems to me.

Much love!