Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Davy]

Remember that water is not for remission of sins. without the shedding of blood there is no remission. The Ot types were shadows and figures of a future reality. We read these verses about remission of sins

Heb 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Rom 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Act 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"

Heb 10:18 "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Note here that when John the baptist was alive there was still sacrifices going on and long after that. But after Christ death there was no need for them.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

Heb 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

THE SUBJECT OF WATER BAPTISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT... ABOUT THE OLD COVENANT WASHINGS, NOR IS THE ACTUAL ACT OF WATER BAPTISM SHOWN TO BE A REPLACEMENT... FOR CHRIST'S BLOOD SHED UPON HIS CROSS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS! YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

First, I am against all five points of Calvinism.

Second, this drawing by the Father was before the cross (that applied to the Jew at that time).

John 12:32 says,

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Jesus opened up the Scriptures to the two disciples who were on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35). This means it is not just our will alone that makes the understanding of God’s Word possible.

Jn 6:45 is how drawing was done in the first century as it is done today. Again, Acts 8 the Spirit sent for Phillip to 'guide' to teach the eunuch where the eunuch was "taught", he "heard" and "learned" and he came to Christ when he obeyed Christ by being water baptized. The same today in drawing as then. Understanding does not require any supernatural intervention of the God or the HS in order for a person to understad with the eunuch or the (Ephesians 3:4). 2 Cor 1:13 "For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and understand and I hope you will fully understand" (ESV) .."Our letters have been straightforward, and there is nothing written between the lines and nothing you can’t understand. I hope someday you will fully understand us," (NLT). Paul is saying what he wrote to them was nothing they could not read nor understand. People can read and understand the Bible as they can read and understand magazines, newspapers or novels.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not sure how you can ignore Acts 19 as a legitimate baptism by the Spirit with tongues and prophecy happening. So it was not just two events as you claimed before.

Anyways, a person first needs to believe in the Lord for salvation first before being water baptized. Just being water baptized without first believing does not help a person. Apparently you think that Paul and Silas did not really mean a belief in Jesus saves when they told him this and therefore you have to change the meaning of belief here into something else.

Acts 16:30-31
30 “And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

According to you… this word “Believe” is in reference to “baptism with a belief in the Lord Jesus” but that’s not what Paul and Silas said.

What took place in Acts 19 is not baptism with the HS nor is it called baptism with the HS. Baptism with the HS was only done by the Lord (Matt 3:11) not by any man. No man today therefore cannot baptize another with baptism with the HS therefore this baptism is not the one bptism of Eph 4 for that baptism has men administering water baptism, something man can do.

===============

In Acts 16:31 when the jailer was commanded to believe, we find:

---the fact belief is commanded means man must produce faith in himself, therefore faith is not something given to man by God therefore beliving is obedience not just a mental assent of the mind...believing is DOING what the Lord says Lk 6:46

---when the jailer was commanded to believe in vs 31 he had not yet been guided in what to believe. It's in vs 32 they "spake unto him the word of the Lord". Hence the jailer was drawn per Jn 6:45 by being "taught" and "heard" and "learned" then he came to Christ when he was water baptized.

---after the jailer was drawn by the word we read in vs 33 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."

----verse 34 says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God". The participle 'having believed" sums up what the jailer had just done in v33 in repenting (washing their stripes) and being baptized. Hence "believed" here is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where it includes repentance and water baptism as it is in Acts 2:44..those who "believed" in v44 were the ones who were baptized in verse 41.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are not taking under consideration of how salvation works in regards to time.

In other words, do you believe the thief on the cross was not saved because he could not be water baptized?

Granted, I am for water baptism in the name of Jesus as a part of LIVING out our faith. Water baptism is something we must do as a part of the faith AFTER we are first saved by God’s grace through faith (without works ) (Ephesians 2:8-9). I believe water baptism is a part of our Sanctification (as a part of God’s plan of salvation) if we are blessed by God to be able to find faithful believers who will help us to be water baptized and to be faithful to Jesus. I believe a Christian is still saved by God’s grace if they have not found like minded believers to baptize them. For you: Being immersed in water by other believers is what initially saves a person. I believe Cornelius was saved prior to being baptized. You can come up with whatever you interpretation or excuse you like. But the plain reading of Scripture shows that they were given the down payment of their inheritance. Granted, we can forfeit our inheritance due to later justifying sin again. For the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Babies who die before they are born are saved by God’s grace. This is why Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. He was saving all of humanity in their being an innocent baby. But when sin came, they became separated from God and they need to born again by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior. Salvation is not this neat one time package that many make it out to be. Not all will be saved the same way exactly. Men can accept Jesus as their Savior on their hospital bed while they are dying and be saved by God’s grace through faith without works. But most of us have to live out our faith (in being faithful to the Lord) to continue to gain access to God’s grace.

The "thief argument" against the necessity of water baptism has never been a valid Bible argument for it fails due to assumptions and impossibilities:

--it is ASSUMED the thief was NEVER baptized even though no verse specifically states the their was never baptized. From what the Bible states we do not know with any certainty that the theif was not or was water baptized. So the 'thief argument" dies on assumptions being made.

--Heb 9:15-16 the NT gospel would not come into effect until some point AFTER Christ died. Christ was still alive and the OT law was still in effect when Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise. Therefore the thief is not an example of NT salvation in being born again by Spirit and by water, (Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48)

--when Christ was 'on earth' He had been given all power, all authority to forgive the sins of those whom He tho't were deserving, (Matt 9:6). Christ left earth some 2000 years ago leaving behind His word as His authority and His word commands water baptism to be saved.
For anyone today to be saved just as the thief, they will need to invent a time machine traveling back 2000 years to when Christ was on earth in person during His earthly ministry to be forgiven of sins just like the thief.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you believe there are no OT Scriptures talking about Christ’s Second Coming (i.e. Revelation 19)?
So you believe there is not future second coming of Jesus and Revelation 19 happened in the past?

If Christ did not fulfill the OT law, then the man known as Jesus was not the Christ and ALL the OT law is still in effect, every jot and tittle of it leaving the NT incomplete and non-binding. Yet we know He did fulfill the OT law and prophets from Eph 2:14-16 and Col 2 hence there was a "change of the law" (Heb 7:12). When Jesus said "it is finished" He was speaking about His work in taking away the OT law by fulfilling otherwise Christ's work was left incomplete and Jesus was not the Christ.

When Matthew said Jesus would fulfill the law, Matthew did not mean fulfilling particular prophecies but a general fulfilling of prophecies in showing that Christ was the end goal of those OT prophecies. The general fulfilling of the law came by 1) Christ keeping the laws precepts perfectly, 2) by keeping prophecies the law spoke about the Christ, 3) He fulfilled the OT law's penalty for sin by making Himself a sacrifice for man's sins on the cross and 4) fulfill the OT laws purpose in giving life for the OT law could not remove sin yet Christ's death could, hence Christ is the end goal, the end intent of the law to righteousness to everyone that believeth, (Rom 10:4)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not true every instance where I posted shows they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. It even says so in the text

"8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"(Acts 8:14-18 KJV)

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They prayed for them to the Lord and it is ultimately the Lord that gives the Holy Ghost, not men. Also Jesus said

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"(Luke 11:9-13 KJV)



I never said the baptism with the Holy Ghost is the one baptism that saves. Nor is the
baptism with water (one of the many diverse washing of Hebrews 9) the saving baptism is being baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

Acts 2 with the Apostles and Acts 10 with Cornelius are the only two places in the NT where the Lord baptized men with the HS. No other place in the NT is anything called baptism with the HS. Acts 8 or 19 the APosltes laid hands upon men passing on an Apostolic gift to that person, this is not called baptism with the HS in the context nor is there any Apostles alive today to lay hands on another for there are no miraculous gifts possessed by anyone today.

There is ONE baptism in effect today and that can only be the water baptism of the great commission. There is not 2 baptisms in effect today just ONE.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Np, we read in scripture that men can simply seek the spiritual gifts and ask God who gives to all who ask. Also we read about others laying hands on people who are not only apostles.

consider your correction,

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."1 Timothy 4:11)

The "presbytery" is a group of elders. So you are not accurate here.

Also Paul simply tells believers to seek for the gifts and God will give them. He didn't say he had to personally lay hands on them. And yes there are apostles and prophets today. They were given after Christ rose again (Ephesians 4, etc) We read of other apostles besides the 123 and prophets in the New Testament.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."(1 Cor 14:1 KJV)

"

---Again, there is NO APOSTLE alive today passing miraculous gifts to men by laying on of hands.
---the Bible teaches miracles were for a particular time and purpose, thy would lasr TILL (time limiting word) they fulfilled thoses purposes which they did by the end of the first century in bring about the inspired word of God and confirming it,
---- no one today therefore can raise the dead, walk on water, control the weather, prophesy, speak in tongues, etc. I have dealt personally with these people who make the claims they have been given miraculous signs but they NEVER performed the first one....EVER.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

what?

Obviously unbelievers and those who are not in Christ did not obey the gospel. They do not die with Christ be burried or risen with him daily. They do not pick up their cross daily etc. OI am not talking about men in the flesh or any man outside of Christ obeying anythings to be saved. When we repent and believe the gospel Christ dwells in our heart by faith and then God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work. The works frlow from love and faith. The victory that overcomes the world is our faith 1 John 5,

My point from 2 Thess 1:8 is salvation is IMPOSSIBLE apart from obedience. Hence belief only cannot save being void of obedience in doing what CHrist says, Lk 6:46.

consider

"5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Because only through faith can we enter into the grace which we stand and by continual faith can we be saved 1 Cor 15:1-4) if we keep in memory. When Christ is in us we can DO all things. through Christ. Without Jesus we can do nothing. The new man in Christ can do all things. These works flow from inward to manifest the life of Christ daily as we walk in the spirit and not in the flesh and as we yield to the spirit and not the flesh.But the works we do flow from the spirit. They are fruits of the spirit, such as love mercy compassion, truth joy etc. We express such things many ways. It is not a ceremonial type or shadow of the OT not a diverse washing or carnal ordinance. These cannot make us clean as pertaining to the conscience.

So water baptism of John from the OT is not the saving baptism into Christ. Many jews follow John and OT law and the Old Covenant for a long tme in Acts. To miss this and the Jew and gentile issue is to not see the saving baptism into Christ and to shift to the outward carnal dead works that do not save.

To add water baptism to the gospel males it another gospel. We see in 1 Cor 1 that Paul said Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. He shows clearly there that water baptism is not part of the gospel. He even defines in the same book what the gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4. and he sows what the saving one baptism is for all believers in 1 Cor 12:13. Which I see as being baptized into Christ or into one body of Christ by the Spirit. This i see as not the Holy Ghost baptism specifically, though the Holy Ghost is given to those who ae in Jesus Christ for Jesus will baptize them with the Holy Ghost. But first men must be in Christ to have the baptism. Yes we do read of men who are also filled with the Spirit even though they have been baptized with the Holy host and this is another discussion.



we see Peter speaking words , preaching and as he spoke the word they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. This teaching all nations baptizing them, can apply somewhat here. The teaching immerses them into the knowledge of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and as they hear and believe the name Jesus is believed and his work and when they have faith Christ dwells in their heart and he will baptize them with the Holy Ghost. But in Cornelius case I see he was already a believer before Peter even met him and Christ was already in him. He need to hear the full gospel and the name Jesus to receive the Holy Ghost. He was saved (complete) by such a faith.

consider,

"10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."

John's water baptism was replaced by Christ's water baptism of the great commission and that water baptism is required to be saved. I am not adding water baptism to the gospel for water baptism is ALREADY in the gospel being put there by the HS who authored the Bible and water baptism is HOW one obeys the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8..water baptism is that form of doctrine those Romans obeyed then were justified.. There is no death burial and resurrection (the gospel) in belief only or in saying a sinner's prayer or in baptism with the HS.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Light of Christ that shines in the heart is a mysterious.

"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

There is also mystery of the word sown in mens hearts as a seed. This is Christ in men and those who believe the seed goes into the heart and gives life, born again by the word of God. Jesus spoke the parable of the seed sown in the heart, the word of God. The word is spiritual. The pharisees were questioned by Jesus why they did not understand his speech, even because they could not hear his word.

The word is nigh unto all and close, working in them if they hear.

Christianity is a deeply spiritual faith in the inward reality. This inward working and mystery that hath been hid from ages ( Christ in you the hope ) has been there all along. The kingdom of God is within. But again these are deeply spiritual things and hard to speak of at times. Scripture has alot to show and prove of this/

But Jesus said some are outwardly righteous or appear so but inwardly full of dead mens bones and all uncleanness and outwardly appear righteous but inwardly lost from God.

"Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

The Bible does NOT say that the Light is not something mysterious or unknown. Those who DO truth come to the light, Jn 3 and truth can be known, Jn 8. Christians cannot walk in the light (1 Jn 1:7) if they do not know what the light is.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

"Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Not a single verse you cite eliminate obedience from salvation, such would contradict 2 Thess 1:8 that logically requires one to OBEY to not be in flaming fire. Rom 4 eliminated the flawless works required by the OT law from justifying Abraham and Eph 2:8 eliminate works of merit men could baost about from saving men but no verse eliminates obedience to God's will hence no verse speaks of the disobedient/unrighteous, rebellious being saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from becoming saved, Rom 6:16-18 Paul required obedience to God in becoming saved but did not require works of merit (Eph 2:9) or works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) to becoming saved. Faith is DEAD apart from obedience to God and that is why there is not a single example on NT salvation by belief alone, that is, belief apart from doing God's will in repenting of sins, confessing with the moth and submitting to water baptism.

Faith onlyists miss the mark by refusing to accept that obedience to God and works of merit are two completely different things. For instance, they quote Rom 4:5 out of context, isolating that verse from all other verses and CLAIM that verse eliminates all works of all kinds while never proving that interpretation or clearing up all the contradictions that interpretation creates.

Rom 6 is spirit baptism not water baptism

there is no such thing as faith alone.. But salvation is only recieved by grace.. through faith.. not of works..

if you add one work. you destroy grace. and salvation becomes a reward. a wage or somethign earned.. And you boast in self. not Christ.

 

[Illuminator]

The "thief argument" against the necessity of water baptism has never been a valid Bible argument for it fails due to assumptions and impossibilities:

--it is ASSUMED the thief was NEVER baptized even though no verse specifically states the their was never baptized. From what the Bible states we do not know with any certainty that the theif was not or was water baptized. So the 'thief argument" dies on assumptions being made.

Not really. The Good Thief had the Baptism of Desire. There is also the Baptism of Blood, meaning one was martyred for the faith before getting a chance to be baptized with water. This reconciles the conflict of salvation without water and spirit baptism. water/desire/blood, it's still one baptism when one understands the principle of baptism: we die with Christ and rise with Him.

“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC1260).​

This appears to me to be a natural reflection of St. Paul’s teaching in his Letter to the Romans:

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus (Romans 2:14-16).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from becoming saved, Rom 6:16-18 Paul required obedience to God in becoming saved but did not require works of merit (Eph 2:9) or works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) to becoming saved. Faith is DEAD apart from obedience to God and that is why there is not a single example on NT salvation by belief alone, that is, belief apart from doing God's will in repenting of sins, confessing with the moth and submitting to water baptism.

Faith onlyists miss the mark by refusing to accept that obedience to God and works of merit are two completely different things. For instance, they quote Rom 4:5 out of context, isolating that verse from all other verses and CLAIM that verse eliminates all works of all kinds while never proving that interpretation or clearing up all the contradictions that interpretation creates.

I believe in Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism, and not Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism.

I believe in two aspects of salvation.

#1. We are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (cf. Ephesians 2:1) (Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism).
#2. God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Obeying God’s Word in doing His Will).

Sanctification of the Spirit is to live a holy life. This is a purification or cleansing whereby we are to overcome sin in this life and obey the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So we are not in disagreement that we must obey God and do His will (do good works, live holy, keep away from sin, etc.) as a part of entering the Kingdom. For I believe Hebrews 10:36 in that it says,

“For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” (Hebrews 10:36).

Most in popular Christianity do not believe this above verse or they redefine the will of God solely as a perpetual belief alone in Jesus for salvation when that’s not what it is talking about.

Where we disagree is being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation (Which is a process of salvation without works). Again, don’t argue with me, argue with Paul.

Also, you somehow make the milk of the Word (grace) as being the same thing as the meat of the Word (Which is to discern between good and evil). Babies must first have milk before they can have solid food, but you want to give a baby solid food when that will not work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from becoming saved, Rom 6:16-18 Paul required obedience to God in becoming saved but did not require works of merit (Eph 2:9) or works of the OT law (Rom 4:5) to becoming saved. Faith is DEAD apart from obedience to God and that is why there is not a single example on NT salvation by belief alone, that is, belief apart from doing God's will in repenting of sins, confessing with the moth and submitting to water baptism.

Faith onlyists miss the mark by refusing to accept that obedience to God and works of merit are two completely different things. For instance, they quote Rom 4:5 out of context, isolating that verse from all other verses and CLAIM that verse eliminates all works of all kinds while never proving that interpretation or clearing up all the contradictions that interpretation creates.

I do see that there is an aspect of obedience even in our believing when it comes to being saved by God’s grace through faith (without works).
Note: Being saved by God’s grace is believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:12-13), and receiving Jesus (John 1:12).

Then there is another kind of obedience after we are saved by God’s grace and that is the Sanctification of the Spirit and that does involve good works, living holy, and putting away any known sin. Sanctification of the Spirit is also a part of God’s plan of salvation (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Romans 8:13) (Galatians 6:8-9).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People can read and understand the Bible as they can read and understand magazines, newspapers or novels.

Not so. It is written:

John 8:43-45
Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

1 Corinthians 2:12-15
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 16:8-9
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Acts of the Apostles 16:14
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If Christ did not fulfill the OT law, then the man known as Jesus was not the Christ and ALL the OT law is still in effect, every jot and tittle of it leaving the NT incomplete and non-binding. Yet we know He did fulfill the OT law and prophets from Eph 2:14-16 and Col 2 hence there was a "change of the law" (Heb 7:12). When Jesus said "it is finished" He was speaking about His work in taking away the OT law by fulfilling otherwise Christ's work was left incomplete and Jesus was not the Christ.

When Matthew said Jesus would fulfill the law, Matthew did not mean fulfilling particular prophecies but a general fulfilling of prophecies in showing that Christ was the end goal of those OT prophecies. The general fulfilling of the law came by 1) Christ keeping the laws precepts perfectly, 2) by keeping prophecies the law spoke about the Christ, 3) He fulfilled the OT law's penalty for sin by making Himself a sacrifice for man's sins on the cross and 4) fulfill the OT laws purpose in giving life for the OT law could not remove sin yet Christ's death could, hence Christ is the end goal, the end intent of the law to righteousness to everyone that believeth, (Rom 10:4)

The Law aspect of the Law and the prophets was being fulfilled with both Christ changing the Law at the Sermon on the Mount and with His death upon the cross (beginning a New Covenant) thereby bringing in New Covenant commands entirely.

But the prophets part of the law and the prophets has not been fulfilled. Sorry, that’s just how I see it here because there are still OT prophecies of Christ’s second coming. Not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law and the prophets until all will be fulfilled. So while the 613 Laws of Moses has been fulfilled, some of those laws have been repeated into the New Covenant. The Old Law has not been completely destroyed but it has been fulfilled with the perfection of the New Commands the Lord Jesus Christ. But we gain access to the New Covenant not by Law, but by God’s grace through faith (without works). Once that happens, then we walk in the New Covenant way by the Spirit (as a part of continuing in God’s plan of salvation). At least, that’s how I see it. If you disagree, we can agree to disagree in love (of course).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What took place in Acts 19 is not baptism with the HS nor is it called baptism with the HS. Baptism with the HS was only done by the Lord (Matt 3:11) not by any man. No man today therefore cannot baptize another with baptism with the HS therefore this baptism is not the one bptism of Eph 4 for that baptism has men administering water baptism, something man can do.

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In Acts 16:31 when the jailer was commanded to believe, we find:

---the fact belief is commanded means man must produce faith in himself, therefore faith is not something given to man by God therefore beliving is obedience not just a mental assent of the mind...believing is DOING what the Lord says Lk 6:46

---when the jailer was commanded to believe in vs 31 he had not yet been guided in what to believe. It's in vs 32 they "spake unto him the word of the Lord". Hence the jailer was drawn per Jn 6:45 by being "taught" and "heard" and "learned" then he came to Christ when he was water baptized.

---after the jailer was drawn by the word we read in vs 33 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."

----verse 34 says "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God". The participle 'having believed" sums up what the jailer had just done in v33 in repenting (washing their stripes) and being baptized. Hence "believed" here is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where it includes repentance and water baptism as it is in Acts 2:44..those who "believed" in v44 were the ones who were baptized in verse 41.

I see Acts 19:1-7 as referring to how Paul water baptized the disciples of John. I believe that when Paul was about to submerge them in the water, the Spirit first came upon them and they prophesied. They received the Spirit before being water baptized (Just like with Cornelius and his household). But I am not arguing against water baptism. Believers must partake of water baptism as a part of living out their faith.

Faith is how we gain access to God’s grace (Romans 5:2).
So a believer should in time seek to be water baptized in the name of Jesus.

I believe the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism.
But that does not mean there is not a baptism that God does upon all believers, though (i.e. a baptism into the body of Christ by the Spirit and a change of their heart, and desires). I believe a person can be saved by God’s grace in the faith they have without water baptism in some cases (either not knowing about it, or they are trying to find the right believers to baptize them), and in other cases I can see this as a problem if they are refusing to be baptized because they think it is optional, not required, or they simply rebellious (i.e. Hyper Grace).

I see Ephesians 4:5 as in context to what we must do and not what God does for us. So Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism (because the context supports the conclusion of what we must do - instead of the context focusing on what God does for us).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The "thief argument" against the necessity of water baptism has never been a valid Bible argument for it fails due to assumptions and impossibilities:

--it is ASSUMED the thief was NEVER baptized even though no verse specifically states the their was never baptized. From what the Bible states we do not know with any certainty that the theif was not or was water baptized. So the 'thief argument" dies on assumptions being made.

--Heb 9:15-16 the NT gospel would not come into effect until some point AFTER Christ died. Christ was still alive and the OT law was still in effect when Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise. Therefore the thief is not an example of NT salvation in being born again by Spirit and by water, (Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48)

--when Christ was 'on earth' He had been given all power, all authority to forgive the sins of those whom He tho't were deserving, (Matt 9:6). Christ left earth some 2000 years ago leaving behind His word as His authority and His word commands water baptism to be saved.
For anyone today to be saved just as the thief, they will need to invent a time machine traveling back 2000 years to when Christ was on earth in person during His earthly ministry to be forgiven of sins just like the thief.

No offense, but this is grasping at straws. I have heard this argument before that the thief was possibly baptized before he was crucified. That’s a highly unlikely assumption upon Scripture to say that he may have been baptized prior to his crucifixion. Simply put: The Bible gives us no evidence that he was baptized. Jesus forgave sins before the cross when healing people. Should we also assume that they were baptized before, as well?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People can read and understand the Bible as they can read and understand magazines, newspapers or novels.

Jesus said,
“The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63).

Newspapers, magazines, and or novels are not words that are spirit and words that are life.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God.
So the Word of God and secular writings are not in even in the same ballpark.
The Bible is a spiritual book that requires spiritual understanding by the Spirit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not a single verse you cite eliminate obedience from salvation, such would contradict 2 Thess 1:8 that logically requires one to OBEY to not be in flaming fire. Rom 4 eliminated the flawless works required by the OT law from justifying Abraham and Eph 2:8 eliminate works of merit men could baost about from saving men but no verse eliminates obedience to God's will hence no verse speaks of the disobedient/unrighteous, rebellious being saved.

Jesus reminded t

THE SUBJECT OF WATER BAPTISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT... ABOUT THE OLD COVENANT WASHINGS, NOR IS THE ACTUAL ACT OF WATER BAPTISM SHOWN TO BE A REPLACEMENT... FOR CHRIST'S BLOOD SHED UPON HIS CROSS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS! YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS!

sorry for the double post