The logos is not a person. If you did one ounce of your own research you'd see that. Seriously, about one ounce is all it would take. Perhaps the "he" and "him" refer to God?
A Form of godliness
- Thread starter Rich R
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No. I just gave the context to verses 8 & 9. What's wrong with that? We should always consider context.
No side slipping. Yes, John does say we must be born again of God's spirit to enter the Kingdom. What it doesn't say is that Jesus is God.
Since you seem to know better than I about what's in my head, I'll let you respond to anything you say from now on.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
He and Him are not IT!
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The Word became flesh, Jesus!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes., exactly.
Notice your verse..... 3. "all things were made through HIM"
Now, when we read ....
John 1:10
Colossians 1:16
= We see the LIGHT
The English translation, the capitalization of "word" and all the "he"s and "him"s merely show the translators trinitarian bias when they translated from the Greek.
Did I show you Strong's definition of "logos?" I think I did, but if not let me know and I'll go over it again. In any case, it's not a person and therefore not a He or Him. It's an abstract noun whereas God and Jesus are concrete nouns. I did say something abstract can not literally become something concrete. The logos, and abstract, can not literally become Jesus, a concrete. I mentioned figures of speech, that God wanted to emphasize something in John 1:14.
Do you really think you are qualified to rewrite the Christian Bible? I don't think you are.
Opinions noted, F2F, and, regarding all I have said, in full confidence in the Holy Spirit, my Helper and teacher (John 14:26) and provider of discernment (1 Corinthians 2:13), returned in full.
Hmmm, well, drawing on Peter's words in Acts 10:28, God has shown us that we should not call any person common or unclean, and that's especially true regarding those whom He has made clean.
Grace and peace to you.
That would be true if the "logos" were Jesus, but it isn't. Genesis says God made all things. At that time Jesus was an idea in God's mind.
John says the logos became Jesus. What was it before it became Jesus?
Col 1:16 must be understood in light of context. Verse 15 says Jesus is the firstborn of creation. Well, if he is God then God must be the first born of creation. If something is born, then there was a time when it didn't exist, so, before creation God did not exist. That's not right!
Here's the problem: it is assumed that Colossians is talking about the creation in Genesis. I trust you know that the church, the body of Christ, is also a creation, the very one talked about in Colossians.
2 Cor 5:17,
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15,
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
The two words, "creature" in Corinthians and Galatians, are the same Greek word as "created" in Colossians.
Well, you are right about that. I would never think I'm qualified to rewrite the Bible. I didn't write the originals nor have I done an English translation. I just read them. There is not one single thing I've said here that is unique. The information is out there for anybody who want to see if what their Pastor says is true or not as did the Bereans did with the things Paul told them. Unfortunately, most Christians just believe what their Pastor or Priest says without searching the scriptures for themselves. We've been told that Jesus is God for 2,000 years now and that is apparently good enough for the vast majority of Christians.
I certainly don't condemn anybody for thinking Jesus is God. I thought the same thing for many years. I was blinded by tradition, so I know how it is.
What an imagination!
Well yeah, "God was manifested in the flesh". You don't know that?
1 Timothy 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Colossians 1:15-16 (NKJV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Says Kingdom Hall?
It's not a problem for Bible believers.
You're playing word games. The Scripture is perfectly clear.
Colossians 1:15-16 (NKJV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Jesus is God the Creator!
And all of our English Bibles insist that Jesus is God!
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
But you follow after those who have.
To even insinuate that anyone here has not searched the Scriptures ~ and prayed extensively for God to give us wisdom and discernment regarding said Scriptures, because only He can do this ~ is totally disingenuous, arrogant, and thus quite ridiculous, Rich.
Right, by... and I know that you disagree, and that's fine with me, but... this thing we call God's Word, the Bible... :)
And neither do I condemn ~ as if I could, anyway; only God can justly condemn, and it would be terribly sinful to even presume to do so ~ anyone for not believing Jesus is God. As I said to Face2Face above, drawing on Peter's words in Acts 10:28, God has shown us that we should not call any person common or unclean, and that's especially true regarding those whom He has made clean.
Hmm... I think you were ~ and might still be, but maybe not ~ blinded... and certainly deceived... by... well, something else, Rich. That's true for everyone, even Christians, from birth up to the point that they become (are made to be) Christians.
Grace and peace to you.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
1. JW-NWT Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let US make man in OUR image, according to our likeness,....
> Who is God pointing to, by speaking in the plural?
2. John 14:23 In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make OUR dwelling with him.
> Who is Jesus pointing to, by speaking in the plural?
3. "There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth."- Earburner.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever,
17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. 18 I will not leave you bereaved.
I [Jesus] am coming to you.
> Then we read this in Romans 8:9....But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him.
Please select the single correct answer:
Since Jesus is the truth, who exactly is "the spirit of the truth", that is "coming to us"?
A. Jesus Himself alone.
B. God the Father alone.
C. Another additional Spirit of God.
D. Both God the Father and Jesus together.
E. God's words only.
F. Michael the archangel.
An abject denial of John 1:1-18. but still, it is what it is.
And John, drawing in full on Genesis, says that "(a)ll things were made through Christ, and without Him was not any thing made that was made...", which, again, an abject denial of, specifically, John 1:3...
No, he says the Word was manifest to us in Jesus when He was made flesh ~ born of woman (Mary) ~ as John says in 1:14...
Agreed. But not the wrong context... :)
Firstborn meaning preeminent over creation, which is Paul's specific context ~ just as David in a lesser sense was made to be, when he was made the firstborn of Israel ~ king of Israel, preeminent over his brothers, who were all older than him, and all of Israel. God says, through David, and about David, in Psalm 89:27, "And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." This is what makes David an Old Testament type/shadow of Christ; Jesus is the Greater David.
Right, but this cannot be true of Jesus, because, as pointed out above, John clearly states that all things were made through Christ, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Agreed. No one here disagrees.
Grace and peace to you
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
ITS D . ITS D . And again i say ITS D . GOD is HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT , JESUS IS the SPIRIT HE IS THE WORD .
ITS SO SIMPLE . THERE is not TWO SPIRITS . THERE IS ONLY ONE SPIRIT , IT IS GOD IT IS CHRIST . AND that is a fact .
You don't condemn.
Hmm... I think you were and might still be, but maybe not ~ blinded... and certainly deceived... [/QUOTE]
You do condemn.
Behold
Well-Known Member
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
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