John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Rich R]

Yeahh, yeahh, yeahh.

According to you, God spoke interlinear to the Israelites, right?

And Jesus being God was my idea.

You just keep resurrecting that dead horse. I'll make my way back around to beat it again and again.

World without end.

Interlinear is not a language. It is actually a Biblical text that shows the English and Greek/Hebrew words used in each verse. They can be found on the internet. I trust you know that John did not speak English. The language of the day was in fact Greek. John wrote his Gospel in the Greek language. Nobody spoke interlinear to anybody though!

Not sure what you meant by the rest of your post.

 

[Wrangler]

I an O close on keyboard. Sorry. I think you know what I meant. Thanks for correcting my error.

 

[Rich R]

The sin of God .....

Okay.

No comment about John's explicit purpose on writing his Gospel?

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

To me it looks like John wrote to show Jesus was the anointed one (Christ) and that he is the son of God. Now both of those are radically different than Jesus actually being God. I can't imagine why John would say one thing in one place and then an entirely different thing in another place. I mean Jesus is either the son and the Christ, or he is actually God. If we say he is God, then he can't be the son since no father is his own son. It would also beg the question of God anointing Himself to be the Christ. If Jesus were God, there would be no need to get anointed. Unless some greater god than Yahweh did the anointing. I don't think so!

 

[GEN2REV]

Interlinear is not a language. It is actually a Biblical text that shows the English and Greek/Hebrew words used in each verse. They can be found on the internet. I trust you know that John did not speak English. The language of the day was in fact Greek. John wrote his Gospel in the Greek language. Nobody spoke interlinear to anybody though!

Not sure what you meant by the rest of your post.

You'll figger it out.

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus is either the son and the Christ, or he is actually God.

His soul (spirit) was God, as we all have one, and God IS a spirit.

His flesh was Christ.

So your math is wrong. Jesus is the Son, ... AND the Christ AND ... He is actually God.

See how that works?

If we say he is God, then he can't be the son since no father is his own son.

Apparently God is.

You're putting human, earthly, limitations on someone/something that is without limits, has endless potential and is not restricted to the dimension that it is the very source of.

You see? We're beating that horse again.

It's ok. I know this is what you're employed to do and I'll accommodate you with a continued resistance.

You got all day, I got all day.

Do your worst.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I respect your opinion and am a bit weary of the debate, but I will just say that all of that throws out Isaiah 9:6. We have prophecy for a very important reason, for a Divine reason. It carries much weight and should not be so neglected and tossed aside as it is by so many today.

I have to agree that the debate is wearisome, but profoundly important because the very nature of the God we worship is involved.
We cannot inherit eternal life unless we "know" "the only true God and the one he sent". And we cannot "know" them unless we understand what the Bible teaches about them. (John 17:3) With the devil sowing his deceptions for thousands of years, this knowledge is vital.

According to my studies, Jesus is what the true definition of “theos” is. But calling him “theos” does not make him “ho theos” which title pertains only to Yahweh. The Bible presents “theos” as having several meanings. It can pertain to false gods and goddesses, divinities or even humans with divine authorization because of being God's representatives. (John 10:31-36)

In all of scripture, not once is Jesus called “ho theos” (THE God). This is how the Greeks identified the one nameless God of the Jews. He wasn’t nameless of course, because Yahweh revealed his name and the meaning of it in Exodus 3:13-15 and told his people that it was to be his name "forever".

The Jews decided that God’s name was too sacred to be uttered and so replaced it with the title “Adonai” meaning “Lord”. Yet this is not his name but simply a respectful address given to many in authority in Bible times. This disobedient act forever changed how Yahweh was identified in later times when Jesus (also addressed as “Lord”) walked the earth. If the Jews had kept to their mandate and represented God’s name by right conduct, we would not be having this debate.

John 1:1 would have read...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine." It was the Word who became flesh, not Yahweh. (John 1:14)

Seeing Jesus as “the son of God” in no way turns him into Yahweh. He would be appalled that people did this because he always gave full credit for everything he did and said, to his Father. He taught us to pray to “our Father” (his and ours) and said that his God’s name should be “hallowed” (sanctified, used with due reverence like the Bible writers did.) But because the Jews lost God’s name, when they had no sanction to stop saying it, confusion has been introduced by Christendom in using this as an excuse to promote their trinity. I can see that you discern the many falsehoods taught in the churches....but I fail to understand why you still believe something that neither Jesus or his apostles, ever taught.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Cannot God be in all places at once? Is He not omnipresent?

There is no scripture that says God is “omnipresent”....He is “omniscient” (all powerful) and he is “almighty” (all powerful) but he has no need to be in all places at once. He is portrayed in the Bible as having a location. Jesus prayed to “Our Father who art in heaven”.....we mortals have no real knowledge of where or what “heaven” is, but we have glimpses in the Bible given to God’s servants in visions from time to time. Yahweh is portrayed as a glorious King sitting on a magnificent throne and attended to by angels who have that special assignment. (Seraphs) He was always portrayed as a single deity. But when Jesus returned to his place in heaven, he was to become co-regent with his Father, ruling in God's kingdom with his elect for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:6)

At the end of that thousand years, having accomplished all that was necessary to return a sinless human race to his God and Father, Jesus places the Kingship back in its rightful hands. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

Yahweh has servants who willingly bow to his every wish and his powerful spirit can be sent wherever he directs it to accomplish his will.

Jesus himself was a mortal human, born of an earthly woman, but he said that he came from heaven. Why did Jesus need to come from heaven to be born of flesh? Because he was to act as mankind’s redeemer.....offering the exact price to buy back what their father Adam had lost for them....sinless human life. It was an exchange that fulfilled the law of God....equivalency or 'like for like'....”an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth, a life for a life”....no life that descended from Adam could pay the ransom because there were no sinless humans who could offer themselves. Jesus willingly gave up his position in heaven to enter the human world and give his life for theirs.
He could not have done that if he was God.....he did not need to be.

If He was on the earth in a flesh form (which He was), can He not also be outside of time and space in the eternal dimension where He exists, and has existed, eternally?

Again, nowhere is it said that Jesus is an eternal being. That would make him an immortal before his earthly mission and because immortals cannot die, his death would have been meaningless, not a true sacrifice. After his return to heaven with his mission accomplished, he was then granted immortal life, and when his elect die faithful and are resurrected as spirits, they too will be granted immortality, something even the angels do not have.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If God put His Spirit into Mary's human egg, the child that was born could not be human. It had no human father.

We know that human scientists can make a living replica of a creature just by providing DNA from another and injecting that material into the egg of the host. Cloning was proven to be possible...no father 's sperm was required for that reproduction. Do we assume that the Creator of the reproductive process has less knowledge of it than mere humans? However God performed this miracle, the child born was no son of Adam, but a true “son of God”.....Adam was also called a "son of God" because he was created, not born of a woman. (Luke 3:38)
Jesus was in every way, Adam’s equivalent....with the exception that he had lived before in heaven.

In Truth, it's disappointing to me that so many ignore the endless evidence of Jesus' Deity.

In keeping with the meaning of “theos”, why can’t Jesus be divinity rather than deity? Does it detract in any way from the personage of God’s son to be what he claimed to be? Never once did he say he was “God”. If the Jews accused him of blasphemy by saying he was “the son of God”, imagine what they would have done if he had claimed to be God! They would have had legitimate grounds to put him to death, but Jesus had to die as an innocent man, blameless, sinless. His divinity did not make him deity because that would have contravened the first Commandment. You cannot put other gods in Yahweh’s place.....Jesus certainly never usurped his Father’s position. Even after his return to heaven, he still called his Father..."my God". (Revelation 3:12) Deity does not worship deity.

It is absolutely fascinating and uplifts one's Faith in God to no end. Dividing God into three, as well as claiming He did not come in the flesh, robs God Almighty of all the glory due to Him for one of His greatest wonders, and one of His most selfless acts.

Actually to me, replacing God with an equal god is demeaning to both Father and son.
Jesus himself worships his Father.....can God have a God? Can one equal part of God worship himself?

It is sheer and utter blasphemy.

I know what looks like blasphemy to me.....there is only one true God (John 17:3) and his son was spoken of as his “holy servant” (Acts 4:27) God cannot be his own servant, nor does God worship himself. Jesus said to be our "high Priest"....can God be his own High Priest?
Making the son into his Father’s equal, like placing two other gods in his place, is still blasphemy, according to my understanding of scripture.

Seeing Jesus as the loving and dutiful son of his amazing Father is what I find uplifting and faith strengthening....all glory in Jesus' whole earthly assignment was to go to his Father....not himself. (Philippians 2:8-10)

 

[GEN2REV]

We cannot inherit eternal life unless we "know" "the only true God and the one he sent". And we cannot "know" them unless we understand what the Bible teaches about them. (John 17:3)

And we cannot know what any verse truly means when we take it out of context.

Put John 17:3 back into context with John 17:8 and it all comes together.

Mortal men don't come forth from God Almighty.

 

[Wrangler]

Mortal men don't come forth from God Almighty.

Where then did mortal men come forth from?

 

[GEN2REV]

Where then did mortal men come forth from?

From their earthly fathers and mothers.

Adam and Eve didn't procreate until after they were changed to the sin nature.

You lost your next point you were gonna try and make, Soul Wrangler!!

You too, tigger. I see you cheerin' back there.

FOILED.

Jesus came forth directly FROM GOD!

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus came forth directly FROM GOD!

Proving once again that Jesus is NOT God.

 

[GEN2REV]

Proving once again that Jesus is NOT God.

Negative.

Spirits don't physically procreate or give physical human birth to a near copy of themselves that has a separate spirit (soul). That would make zero sense.

God put HIMSELF into Mary's egg. HIMSELF.

It would be impossible for Jesus to come from that union with a totally separate, different spirit.

God IS ... a spirit.

The Spirit that animated Christ WAS God.

And Christ IS God.

 

[Wrangler]

Proving once again that Jesus is NOT God.

Negative

Language Usage. Positive. Juxtapositional proof. In your own words, Jesus is the subject of the sentence doing the action, he came. The object of the sentence is WHO Jesus came FROM, from God - in his unitarian nature.

 

[GEN2REV]

Language Usage. Positive. Juxtapositional proof. In your own words, Jesus is the subject of the sentence doing the action, he came. The object of the sentence is WHO Jesus came FROM, from God - in his unitarian nature.

Negative.

It did not prove that.

Simple.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And we cannot know what any verse truly means when we take it out of context.

Put John 17:3 back into context with John 17:8 and it all comes together.

Mortal men don't come forth from God Almighty.

Can we have a look at that whole passage then....?...in context....

John 17:1-8.....
"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me."

Read it carefully again.....
This is Jesus praying to his God and Father.....
The Father has given his son "authority over all flesh"...to give the ones God gave to him, "eternal life". If Jesus is God why does he need authority from his Father to grant eternal life to the ones God gave him? Jesus was in every way a mortal human who was given the power of God's holy spirit at his baptism, to heal the sick and to raise people from the dead.....these were to be granted eternal life either in heaven as one of God's elect....or brought back to life on this earth after Jesus and his angels have cleansed it of all wickedness and those who practice it. (2 Peter 3:13) All things will be "new"..... to start again with a clean slate.

Eternal life is dependent on 'knowing' both God and his Christ. Yahweh "sent" his son, he did not send himself. God cannot die, nor can mere mortals kill God. That is nonsense, not to mention demeaning to both the Father and the son in the sacred mission to which he was assigned.

Jesus glorified his Father not himself....expressing a longing for the glory he had in heaven "before the world existed". He existed in the heavens as God's "firstborn of all creation", (Colossians 1:15) meaning that he existed with the Father, "he came forth from the Father"...."sent" by him, not that he was part of the Father.

He also said that he had made his Father's name known to his disciples.....because the Jews had failed to make God's name known long before Christ came. These men know that "everything" was given to Jesus by his Father, and that he had come forth from the Father.
The mortal men of which you speak are not said to "come forth from God Almighty".

 

[Aunty Jane]

Could you quote John 17:30?

Could you quote that please.....it seems to be missing from all the Bibles on the Internet....

1 Corinthians 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Thanks for confirming that Jesus is indeed God!

Amazing bit of convenience blindness there......you highlighted the wrong portion....
"yet for us there is one God, the Father"....and it says that Jesus is the one "through whom are all things"......you don't know about agency do you? Not surprising since you know very little about anything the Bible teaches. Every time you open your mouth you stick your foot in it. If ever Christendom wanted a spokesman, they should choose you Jack....

....you're a scream.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There’s a grave indeed, but it no longer has any power.

People are still dying and "the grave" (sheol, hades) is still open for business....but according to Revelation 20:13-14 "death and the grave" will be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed forever. When does that take place, and how does that fit with what you believe.....?

 

[face2face]

There is no scripture that says God is “omnipresent”....He is “omniscient” (all powerful) and he is “almighty” (all powerful) but he has no need to be in all places at once. He is portrayed in the Bible as having a location. Jesus prayed to “Our Father who art in heaven”.....we mortals have no real knowledge of where or what “heaven” is, but we have glimpses in the Bible given to God’s servants in visions from time to time.

Good practice to correct error where possible.

Psalms 139 is a wonderful study for those wishing to appreciate the attributes of Yahweh the one true God.

The Psalm is skilfully divided into four stanzas of six verses each.

So lets begin

1. the first stanza (Psalms 139:1-6) deals with the omniscience of God; That He is all knowing.

2. the second (Psalms 139:7-12), deals with his omnipresence; That He is all seeing.

3. the third (Psalms 139:13-18) , speaks to his omnipotence; He is all powerful.

4. and the fourth (Psalms 139:19-24) contains a personal request to God having considered all three attributes and his moral responsibilities toward God David makes supplication for evil to be removed and to keep him on the ancient way.

I'm always cautious when I hear people limit God's power like that said above.

Hope you take the time to read through the wonderful insights of David and how utterly insightful they are of the Almighty.

God's Spirit can be everywhere present and central to where God dwells. I wonder if Aunty Jane can admit she is wrong on this point?

Anything is possible I guess.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Negative.

It did not prove that.

Simple.

LOL. Denying the proof doesn’t change the facts. It is proof.
Mystical dualists, such as yourself, cannot even speak normally without betraying your inherently contradictory doctrine.

What is your rejection criteria? What set of words would proof the doctrine false?