The Impassable Great Gulf in Hell: No legs to walk with

[Raccoon1010]

Sure, people will try to patch together verses to "prove" that hell has a swing door, I'm sure satan wants mugs to believe that in order to drop their guard and think "No worry, if I end up in hell i'll be let out eventually".

Well we're all guilty and therefore would rightly die the death and go to hell if it weren't for Jesus. Keys of hell and death you could look at in different ways I suppose. But it appears clear to me that the key of death, people do die and then are released from death into the resurrection. So then is hell the same, people go there and are released with said key of hell by God? It's unclear, but we do know Jesus preached to them in hell, and for what reason?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Baptized with fire? Hmmm. Is that like baptism with water, but real fire? And all these bible scholars got it wrong?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Luke 16:26 . . Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed

Luke portrays only a small portion of the geography where Abraham and the
rich man conversed; suggesting that the two locations of the chasm where
the men stood are peninsulas or narrow cornices.

But I rather suspect that the rims of the chasm are straight and parallel like
the banks of a canal; plus extending sufficient distance in either direction to
accommodate hundreds, maybe even thousands, of friends and relatives
seeking to connect with their loved ones and BFF over on the other side.
_

 

[robert derrick]

Hell is in the heart of the earth with the lava and heat. Jesus descended into the heart of the earth to preach to them (Ephesians 4:9, 1 Peter 3:19). So it appears he also has the keys of hell and death (Revelation 1:18). So he can deliver people from hell.

Those keys would be used to deliver the ungodly from hell to judgement:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[robert derrick]

Those are his chosen if you believe what some people preach. People that don't go to hell. And the rest is just speculation. There isn't enough information in the bible to assess much about hell. Just it is fiery and people get sent there.

What I mean is, there are those that preach no one goes to hell anymore, or that hell was ever real at all.

 

[robert derrick]

Baptized with fire? Hmmm. Is that like baptism with water, but real fire? And all these bible scholars got it wrong?

Baptism of fire all saints go through is great tribulation of temptation, deception, and persecution, which is to purify their faith and lives:

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Flames of hell are not to purify, but to destroy.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no purgatory.

 

[Raccoon1010]

What I mean is, there are those that preach no one goes to hell anymore, or that hell was ever real at all.

I believe in hell, but I know what you mean, Jesus didn't go to hell to preach for nothing.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Baptism of fire all saints go through is great tribulation of temptation, deception, and persecution, which is to purify their faith and lives:

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Flames of hell are not to purify, but to destroy.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no purgatory.

Hmm, well I'll leave you to debate that with the Catholics. I do believe, as the bible spells out, that Jesus went to preach to those from Noah's flood who were once disobedient. But you have to read the surrounding text to understand that (1 Peter 3:18-22). So I disagree with you that hell destroys, it actually punishes for crimes, which is a good thing, which is why God sends people to hell.

Hell is a prison which is different than the lake of fire as some people believe. Hell and Death are later cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed. (Revelation 20:14-15).

 

[marks]

the Rich Man would not have asked Abraham to "send" legless Lazarus, but to "carry" legless Lazarus

No one could have carried anyone. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Good catch!

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

So, you are another mortal soul theologist, that rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and God.

All of your rejection of plain Scripture, is to reject hell and make for yourself a naturalized theology of 'heaven or oblivion'.

hmmmm, mortal soul theologist hey! hmmm, I suppose so according to Genesis 3:19 'In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.”

In regard to the rejection of scripture, well, Ive just affirmed some here.....how is that 'rejection'?
.......and why resort to misrepresenting me re your statement of rejecting scripture? Did you know this is the standard response from any who feel threatened by a different position?.....ever wondered where that originated?

 

[Phoneman777]

The Bible confirms when something within the myths of men are true, such as the flood of Gilgamesh. The Scripture then goes on to correct all the false parts.

The devil inspires myths out of truth, in order to muddy the waters of Scripture. This is why naturally minded unbelievers treat the Bible as just another book of myths, parables, and symbols, instead of the true account of history.

Saying Jesus' account of hell is parable only, while trying to extract teaching from it, is the same as those who make crossing of the Red Sea a parable only as well.

Faith in God and Scripture knows all accounts are true, unless identified as parable, allegory, or mystery, and they are written also for lessons to be learned:

Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.



Here is now how you make Jesus as nothing but a mythologer Himself.

The Hellenistic Jews did accept mythology as fables for themselves. Jesus wasn't joining in with them, but was correcting their errors, by stating hell as it is, and not as Greek writers and Hellenistic Jews took it to be.

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The natural minded unbelieving Jews and Christians alike prefer fables to facts, when the Scriptural accounts aren't to their liking.



That punishment was then as Jesus says, and the torment is forever as Scripture says.



So, you do know what Scripture says, but you just reject it, because you don't like it.

And you despise and fear it so much, we see you joining in with the other unbelievers, that accuse the God of the Bible of being evil and doing evil things to people.



Here we see how your natural mind always looks to the natural body first and foremost, so that when Scripture speaks of spiritual things of the soul, then it is foolishness to you and makes no 'sense' physically.

Man is not his body, and so no body is given a soul. Man is a soul who is given a body temporarily in this life, to prove ourselves with God.

Man is only made a little lower than the angels in this life, because angels are spiritual beings given spiritual bodies at the first, while man is a spiritual soul wrapped in mortal flesh only.

This is why angels that rebel against Christ are cast down without hope of rising again, while man is given grace to rise again before the grave. IF we end in righteousness of Christ, then our soul receives the resurrection spiritual body like that of Christ, and so the Scripture is fulfilled that lowly man on earth, is raised higher than the angels in heaven:

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.

In the resurrection in Jesus' likeness, men are crowned with glory and honour, but for now men are given power over the earth.

Natural men only see their lives and power in flesh and blood, and blind themselves to the true power, immortality, and riches of the spiritual soul.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Natural theology only gives lip service to the soul, while seeing only a mortal soul in mortal flesh.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If the soul were the flesh, then Jesus would be saying the soul is nothing, even as the flesh is nothing. Therefore, natural thinkers make the soul nothing more than flesh and blood with no profit to it.

The immortal soul is the inner man that is created with ears to hear the eternal things of the Spirit, but the natural theologist with a mortal soul only, shuts his ears to the spiritual things of eternal life.



And once again, you first twist Scripture to fit your natural theology, and so you naturally twist others teaching Scripture just as written:

All men surely die, if and exactly when we sin against Christ, with spiritual death and separation from Christ.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Death of the immortal soul by sinning is more sure than the flesh, because it can become become eternal without repentance unto death of the mortal body.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jesus was dealing with specific opposition in His day, and thus drew upon the false ideas of the day to illustrate by parable what would happen to that opposition should they continue in unbelief. Dead people do not receive bodies until the the one or the other of the two resurrrections and since the parable, among other things, contains things that cannot happen and do not happen in real experience such as the three dead people having body parts, the passage CANNOT BE LITERAL. Your "disembodied soul body parts" and "innate immortality of the soul" idea only serves to prove how desperate people are to make "Biblical" the unBiblical. Souls die and pass out of existence because "God only hath immortality".

 

[Phoneman777]

So, an OSAS JW. That's unique. Most JW's at least call for righteous living in holiness attire.

Jesus Christ is Lord and God. He never ceased to exist.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I can easily disprove OSAS by Scripture, just like I disproved "innate immortality of the soul" with Scripture. I'm happy you disagree with OSAS, because it's just as dangerous a teaching as that which denies that souls die and cease to exist.

OSAS dies the death it deserves by the following line or reasoning:​

Matthew 24:12-13 KJV directly contrasts the "many" of verse 12 with the saved saint in verse 13, and describes them as having allowed widespread iniquity to turn their "agape" within them "cold" and dead, leaving them unable to "endure to the end" and be "saved" as the saint in verse 13. These "many" are saints, not sinners as claimed by the OSAS crowd. How do we know?

Because 1 John 5:3 KJV says "agape" is demonstrated solely by happily keeping the commandments of God which is only possible for saints of God because Romans 8:7 KJV says sinners can't keep the commandments of God even if they wanted to.

Again, since sinners are unable to demonstrate inward "agape" of God by happily keeping His commandments, that means these "many" who allow their inward "agape" to turn cold and dead are saints which are going to end up in hell...because they ceased from "not my will, but Thine" and turned to "not Thy will, but mine" - and demonstrated their fatal decision by stubborn, impenitent iniquity.

What do you think about this? Is it not sound Biblical exegesis?

 

[Phoneman777]

No one could have carried anyone. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Good catch!

Much love!

His argument is that since there's no mention of "legs", then Lazarus had none and because I suggested it, I'm a "false prophet" and a "natural mind" guy and whatever else he said to question my Christianity.

Now, I'm partial to the warm services of the black church and I appreciate the black preacher's effective use of what I deem "truth extrapolation" where implicit truth is masterfully entwined with the explicit.

My favorite example of this is when my favorite preacher, C.D. Brooks once spoke of the OT story of when king Jeroboam set up false worship in the North after Israel split in two, and God told His prophet to pay him a visit and told him not to eat anything while he was there "nor return home the same way" that he came. Of course, God was referring to his route of travel, but C.D. took a few moments to profoundly declare to that Revelation seminar crowd "when ya come out and meet with God's people and hear the truth preached, ya ought not go home the same way", referring to spiritual condition. Absolutely profound, at least to a simpleton like me.

 

[Dropship]

..it appears clear to me that the key of death, people do die and then are released from death into the resurrection. So then is hell the same, people go there and are released with said key of hell by God? It's unclear, but we do know Jesus preached to them in hell, and for what reason?

Different verses are open to different interpretations by different people, and to further muddy the waters, organised religions and cults also add their own interpretations and tell people what to think.
I'm non-denominational and am therefore free to think what I like, and can focus on Jesus-
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2)
So the resurrection thing seems clear and simple enough to me, we die and then on judgement day get a wake-up call and go straight to heaven or hell..:)-
Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28-29)
Some people can't handle that brutal truth and like to think they'll be let out of hell in due course but are in for a shock-

"I don't belong here!"

 

[Raccoon1010]

Different verses are open to different interpretations by different people, and to further muddy the waters, organised religions and cults also add their own interpretations and tell people what to think.
I'm non-denominational and am therefore free to think what I like, and can focus on Jesus-
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2)
So the resurrection thing seems clear and simple enough to me, we die and then on judgement day get a wake-up call and go straight to heaven or hell..:)-
Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28-29)
Some people can't handle that brutal truth and like to think they'll be let out of hell in due course but are in for a shock-

"I don't belong here!"
View attachment 26871

Probably the belief that people get out of spirit prison relates to this passage of paying the farthest penny. Where people pay for their own sins instead of Jesus doing it for them:

Matthew 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

But we know Jesus has the key to hell and visited spirit prison and there were them that were still in spirit prison from the flood of Noahs time. So they never got out.

 

[robert derrick]

Hmm, well I'll leave you to debate that with the Catholics. I do believe, as the bible spells out, that Jesus went to preach to those from Noah's flood who were once disobedient. But you have to read the surrounding text to understand that (1 Peter 3:18-22). So I disagree with you that hell destroys, it actually punishes for crimes, which is a good thing, which is why God sends people to hell.

Hell is a prison which is different than the lake of fire as some people believe. Hell and Death are later cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed. (Revelation 20:14-15).

Scriptural destruction is not oblivion.

There is no such thing as oblivion, where there is nothing that God is not there, and He does not know of.

He also certainly does not uncreate anything He creates.

He is a Creator only. Not an uncreator.

 

[robert derrick]

.......and why resort to misrepresenting me re your statement of rejecting scripture?

You don't teach heaven or oblivion?

Yes you do. All you have now is some silly accusation about something, you don't even deny.

And I ceased bothering to Scripturally correct ad nauseum jehovah worshipping idolators of a created christ.

hmmmm, mortal soul theologist hey! hmmm, I suppose so according to Genesis 3:19 'In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

I now have the basic cornerstone for the idolatry: the natural theology of mortal souls.

Thanks.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus was dealing with specific opposition in His day,

Jesus was dealing with the specific opposition in His day, that He is Christ, Lord, and God. Not a blasphemous created christ of his own making.

Which still goes on today.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

and thus drew upon the false ideas of the day to illustrate by parable what would happen to that opposition should they continue in unbelief.

Jesus rebuked the false ideas of the day, as He still does today, by revealing the truth of how things were, are, and forever:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Scripture confirms the flood over the earth, and corrects the mythological errors of Gilgamesh about it. Likewise, Scripture confirms the hades of departed souls in the center of the earth, and corrects the mythological errors of pagan Greeks about it.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Scriptural destruction is not oblivion.

There is no such thing as oblivion, where there is nothing that God is not there, and He does not know of.

He also certainly does not uncreate anything He creates.

He is a Creator only. Not an uncreator.

The fact that death is cast into the lake of fire says something about the lake of fire and it's affect on death doesn't it?

Revelation 21:4
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[robert derrick]

Because 1 John 5:3 KJV says "agape" is demonstrated solely by happily keeping the commandments of God

I assure you my faith is in Christ alone for salvation, not works, and certainly not false pagan ideas like yours which deny the truth of Scripture that God "only hath immortality".

The faith of Jesus given to them that receive Him, is the both the faith to believe His word, and the faith to do His word as written.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

No man can be saved nor justified by faith alone without works.

The created christ you trust in is not Jesus Christ, and so you have no faith of Jesus within you, nor His Spirit, no matter how well you have learned to happily keep His law on paper.

Having the wisdom to be a law keeper rather than a law breaker, is good for this life only.