A Form of godliness

[Earburner]

It is true that God, specifically Yahweh, created man in His image. Note verse 27 uses the singular, "His image," not "Our image." God is spirit (John 4:24) and that is His image. Man was originally created as body, soul, and spirit. Did you find anything on "the divine council?" I just Googled it and got 64,000,000+ references. Probably not all good, but just check out the ones that come up on the first page. That should help explain who the "us" is in Gen 1:26. Jesus wasn't born for some 4,000 years after Genesis, so the "us" couldn't refer to him.

The words "express image" in Hebrew 1:3 is the Greek word χαρακτήρ charakter. One person having the character of another person does not make them one and the same.

Read the first two (three- see my edit below) verses of Hebrews 1 for context. There we see that God manifested Himself in various ways, "divers manner" to Israel in the OT. He spoke to them, He wrote letters to them, He performed miracles for them. All of these show who God is. Verse 2 says He has communicated to mankind through Jesus. Now you know Jesus always did the Father's will, always spoke only the words God gave him to speak. Jesus never did his own will, but only that of his Father (two different wills ought to be a sign of two different people). See John 5:30, 6:38 and others to see that.

That is why Jesus could say, "if you see me, you see the Father." Jesus was the perfect image of God as per Col 1:15. An image of something is never the thing itself. It is also worth noting that Jesus was the firstborn of creation. If He were God, we need to find out who was it that bore God.

The main thing to keep in mind is the reason John wrote his gospel. According to John 20:31, John wrote to show that Jesus was the son of God and the promised Christ, or Messiah. All other scripture must accord with that simple declaration. Just try for a moment to understand what a son is. He is certainly not his own father.

In much of what you say I can agree with, but there are two (three- see my edit below) very important scriptures that escape you, that you need to come to terms with and repent (G3340 metanoeo-to turn) towards God for understanding and agreement. They are:
Proverbs 8:22-31
[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of HIS way, before his works of old.
[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Hebrews 10[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body [of flesh] hast THOU prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

In the realm of eternity past, before the world was, Emmauel's/Jesus' existence is brought forth from out of God the Father Himself, by the determination and counsel of the Father's own will. It was then that Jesus was "begotten" by God the Father as His only Son.

At the precise time in the history of this world, God the Father prepared a body of flesh for His Son, so that He could perform His Father's will of becoming the Lamb OF God, to take away the sin of the world. The "finished" work of His accomplishments, as outlined in Daniel 9:24 (the six works of God), are recorded in the Gospels/Acts as being past, present, with some to be still manifested in the future.
Edit: As the last part of Daniel 9:27 says: "that which is determined, shall be poured upon the desolate", which is the Day of Pentecost, the giving of the Spirit of Christ to all who believe and ask. Luke 11:13.
We are still in the Age of Pentecost, God's period of Grace.

Edit: according to KJV Genesis 1:26, the plural is emphasized in the word "our Image".
[26] And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after our likeness,

Even the JW-NWT gets it right on that one.
Gen. 1:26 ....Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,

 

[Rich R]

I don't think you are qualified to rewrite our Christian Bible.

Of course I'm not qualified to rewrite "your" Bible. What's your point?

 

[Jack]

Of course I'm not qualified to rewrite "your" Bible. What's your point?

Of course not. I didn't write any Bible. I just believe the Christian Bible. It declares that Jesus is God and Hell fire is "everlasting".

 

[Rich R]

In much of what you say I can agree with, but there are two very important scriptures that escape you, that you need to come to terms with and repent (G3340 metanoeo-to turn) towards God for understanding and agreement. They are:
Proverbs 8:22-31
[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of HIS way, before his works of old.
[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Hebrews 10[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body [of flesh] hast THOU prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

In the realm of eternity past, before the world was, Emmauel's/Jesus' existence is brought forth from out of God the Father Himself, by the determination and council of the Father's own will. It was then that Jesus was "begotten" by God the Father as His only Son.

At the precise time in the history of this world, God the Father prepared a body of flesh for His Son, so that He could perform His Father's will of becoming the Lamb OF God, to take away the sin of the world. The "finished" work of His accomplishments, as outlined in Daniel 9:24 (the six works of God), are recorded in the Gospels/Acts as being past, present, with some to be still manifested in the future.

Proverbs 8 is talking about wisdom (verse 1). There is no justification for changing that to Jesus other than a preconceived idea.

Hebrews is one person talking to another. I just don't understand how anyone can read about one person talking to another person and come to the conclusion that the two are somehow actually one. I mean one person preparing something (body) for another, that one come to do the will of another...how is that not two people?

 

[Jack]

Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

 

[PinSeeker]

It is true that God, specifically Yahweh, created man...

Great. Agree, totally. And in John 1:3, John says, without question, that "(a)ll things were made through Him (the Word, Whom John names in verse 17 as Jesus Christ), and without Him (again, the Word, Whom John names in verse 17 as Jesus Christ) was not any thing made that was made. That really should be the end of any dispute. But so it goes.

in His image. Note verse 27 uses the singular, "His image," not "Our image." God is spirit (John 4:24) and that is His image. Man was originally created as body, soul, and spirit. Did you find anything on "the divine council?" I just Googled it and got 64,000,000+ references. Probably not all good, but just check out the ones that come up on the first page. That should help explain who the "us" is in Gen 1:26.

Ah yes, the "divine council." No one else was present in the beginning other than the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So...

Jesus wasn't born for some 4,000 years after Genesis, so the "us" couldn't refer to him.

Born of Mary, sure, but all things were made through Jesus, and without Him was not anything made that was made, and He was sent by the Father, which mean, among other things, that He was not created as man is.

The words "express image" in Hebrew 1:3 is the Greek word χαρακτήρ character. One person having the character of another person does not make them one and the same.

Not one and the same Person, but it does mean they have the same nature, Rich, who the person is in their very being.

Read the first two verses of Hebrews 1 for context. There we see that God manifested Himself in various ways, "divers manner" to Israel in the OT. He spoke to them, He wrote letters to them, He performed miracles for them.

Well, you have to read Hebrews in its context, Rich. :) It says in the former days, God spoke in various ways, but now He has spoken by His Son. So His speaking is all that's in view there, which is in perfect harmony with the fact that, as John says, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

All of these show who God is. Verse 2 says He has communicated to mankind through Jesus. Now you know Jesus always did the Father's will, always spoke only the words God gave him to speak. Jesus never did his own will, but only that of his Father (two different wills ought to be a sign of two different people).

Right, because, being one with the Father, and in the Father and the Father in Him, He could do no other. Sure.

Jesus was the perfect image of God as per Col 1:15. An image of something is never the thing itself.

Jesus is the image/likeness of the Father; we are in the image/likeness of the Father, which does not refer to physical traits but to the core of the person.

It is also worth noting that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.

Yes, preeminent over creation, not "born before the rest of creation." just as David, the last born of all his brothers became the firstborn over Israel when he was made king (Psalm 89).

If He were God, we need to find out who was it that bore God.

God ~ all three Persons of Him ~ is self-existing.

The main thing to keep in mind is the reason John wrote his gospel. According to John 20:31, John wrote to show that Jesus was the son of God and the promised Christ, or Messiah.

You seem to say this as if trinitarians disagree, which is not the case at all.

Just try for a moment to understand what a son is.

Right back at you, Rich. Right back at you. But surely you would agree that Jesus being the Son of God is really much more than you being the son of your dad. And again, Jesus was both the Son of God and the Son of Man, which, still, no "unitarian" here has even attempted to speak to, despite repeated inquiries into what they understand by that and/or how that can possibly be.

He is certainly not his own father.

Right, the Son is not the same Person as the Father. We have all acknowledged that many, many times. But in the Father, and the Father in Him, as Jesus said. Can you say that of your dad, Rich? No, and neither can I. Or could I have, anyway, as my dad passed away a few years ago. So the comparison you're trying to make is just not what you're trying (in vain) to make it out to be.

But, with of him and in him

 

[Earburner]

Proverbs 8 is talking about wisdom (verse 1). There is no justification for changing that to Jesus other than a preconceived idea.

Hebrews is one person talking to another. I just don't understand how anyone can read about one person talking to another person and come to the conclusion that the two are somehow actually one. I mean one person preparing something (body) for another, that one come to do the will of another...how is that not two people?

Proverbs 8:22-31
Of course, it is talking about the Lord Jesus Himself. In fact, it IS Jesus Himself speaking.

Are you not aware that God's plan of Salvation, the "Good News" of His Son to come, was kept secret, right up until the Day of His baptism?
Matthew 13:35, Romans 16:25, after His Baptism Luke 8:16-18.
Therefore, anything that was kept secret by God, and was spoken of by God through the prophets, was in shadows of speech and symbolic language, which could not be known of by men until Jesus appeared, and then after the Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost.

Yes, it is two persons talking. God the Father and God the Son. Before Jesus was made to be flesh, he also was Spirit before the world was.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
As I did say, I am an Amillennial Binitarian Christian, who is born again of Christ's Spirit.
John 3:3-8, Romans 8:8-9.

 

[Rich R]

Ah yes, the "divine council." No one else was present in the beginning other than the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So...

So God created the angels (spiritual beings) after Adam and Eve?

Right back at you, Rich. Right back at you. But surely you would agree that Jesus being the Son of God is really much more than you being the son of your dad. And again, Jesus was both the Son of God and the Son of Man, which, still, no "unitarian" here has even attempted to speak to, despite repeated inquiries into what they understand by that and/or how that can possibly be.

I didn't realize you wondered whether or not I see a difference between being a son of God and a son of my earthly father. Really? You must have an incredible low estimation of me to even suggest I don't see the difference between the two. Rather stunning. In any case, I was simply talking about seed. It is by seed that we are anybody's son. That seed can come from an earthly father or from God. The main difference being that the earthly seed corrupts (hence we die) whereas God's seed is incorruptible (hence eternal life, 1 Pet 1:23). Of course there are plenty of other benefits of being God's son!

I seriously doubt there hasn't been a unitarian that has not explained that before. Maybe you haven't been attentive enough to see it? I don't know. Just suggesting.

All Christians are sons of God as well as sons of an earthly father. You understand that you are the son of your father as well as a son of God? As such, you are a brother to Jesus (Heb2:11), but are you God's brother?

By the way, God is expressly not the son of man (Num 23:19), Jesus is expressly the son of man (Luk 17:30). So....?

Right, the Son is not the same Person as the Father. We have all acknowledged that many, many times. But in the Father, and the Father in Him, as Jesus said. Can you say that of your dad, Rich? No, and neither can I. Or could I have, anyway, as my dad passed away a few years ago. So the comparison you're trying to make is just not what you're trying (in vain) to make it out to be.

Well I guess I can't say I'm in my earthly father nor is he in me. But there is this: Christ in us (Col 1:27) and us in Christ (Rom 8:1). What does that mean?

I'm not trying to make any comparison. I'm just pointing out a few verses.

 

[Rich R]

Proverbs 8:22-31
Of course, it is talking about the Lord Jesus Himself. In fact, it IS Jesus Himself speaking.

You're being led too much by Greek philosophy. They were the first to personify wisdom. It sure wasn't the Jews, the ones to whom God actually wrote.

Are you not aware that God's plan of Salvation, the "Good News" of His Son to come, was kept secret, right up until the Day of His baptism?
Matthew 13:35, Romans 16:25, after His Baptism Luke 8:16-18.

No, I'm not at all aware that God kept his plan of salvation secret until Jesus' baptism. I always thought Jesus was first promised way back in Genesis.

Gen 3:15,

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

Yes, it is two persons talking. God the Father and God the Son. Before Jesus was made to be flesh, he also was Spirit before the world was.
John 17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
As I did say, I am an Amillennial Binitarian Christian, who is born again of Christ's Spirit.
John 3:3-8, Romans 8:8-9.

I've searched several Bible versions and haven't found this "God the Son." Must come from some other extra-biblical source.

God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). I'll just say this much about it; the ancient Jews did not understand foreknowledge or predestination the way we do. You know the meaning of words change with time and with different cultures. The Jews were 3,000 years ago and the Ancient Near East culture is quite different than our own Modern Western culture. God wrote to them in terms they would understand. It's not good to force our worldview on the Bible. The message will certainly end up garbled at best, and virtually unintelligible at worst, Jesus being God a prime example of the latter.

 

[Rich R]

Great. Agree, totally. And in John 1:3, John says, without question, that "(a)ll things were made through Him (the Word, Whom John names in verse 17 as Jesus Christ), and without Him (again, the Word, Whom John names in verse 17 as Jesus Christ) was not any thing made that was made. That really should be the end of any dispute. But so it goes.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

Try reading John 1 with the idea that the Word is God. John 1 is not all about Jesus. It talks about God, John the Baptist, and Jesus.

But to gain even more understanding, find out what the word "logos" actually means. That's the Greek word for "Word" in 1:1.

 

[Earburner]

By the way, God is expressly not the son of man (Num 23:19), Jesus is expressly the son of man (Luk 17:30). So....?

Why did you not include Hebrews 1:3?
Heb.1[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express [exact] image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[Wrangler]

Great. Agree, totally. And in John 1:3, John says, without question, that "(a)ll things were made through Him (the Word... That really should be the end of any dispute. But so it goes.

The word in John 1:3 does not refer to Jesus. Jesus says he has a God who is the only true God. On top of all this, Scripture repeatedly says Jesus is the Son of God (not once saying he is God incarnate). All this should end the dispute. But so it goes.

 

[Wrangler]

Ah yes, the "divine council." No one else was present in the beginning other than the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So...

What a rationalization to disregard the divine council. No one is claiming the divine council had to be there at the beginning of Creation, only before the creation of man. See the difference?

 

[Wrangler]

Born of Mary, sure, but all things were made through Jesus

But not by Jesus. See the difference?

 

[Wrangler]

Right, because, being one with the Father, and in the Father and the Father in Him, He could do no other.

You just took away the greatest accomplishment of our lord, to submit to the will of his God. If he did not have a choice, it does not counter the choice of Adam.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus was the perfect image of God as per Col 1:15. An image of something is never the thing itself.

Jesus is the image/likeness of the Father; we are in the image/likeness of the Father, which does not refer to physical traits but to the core of the person.

Perhaps you cannot acknowledge Rich's point that an image of something is never the thing itself.

 

[Wrangler]

It is also worth noting that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.

Yes, preeminent over creation, not "born before the rest of creation."

LOL. First born does not mean 'born before the rest.' That's powerful indoctrination for you.

 

[Wrangler]

The main thing to keep in mind is the reason John wrote his gospel. According to John 20:31, John wrote to show that Jesus was the son of God and the promised Christ, or Messiah.

You seem to say this as if trinitarians disagree, which is not the case at all.

You just deny logic and the principle of mutual exclusiveness. If all is for X, then none is for not-X. Trinitarians have to deny logic to advance their doctrine.

 

[Wrangler]

Right, the Son is not the same Person as the Father.

But Scripture explicitly says only the father is God. So, there is that.

 

[Earburner]

I've searched several Bible versions and haven't found this "God the Son." Must come from some other extra-biblical source.

KJV Psalms 2[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I [the LORD] set my king [the Lord] upon my holy hill of Zion [Heavenly Jerusalem].
[7] I [the Lord] will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[8] [to the Lord, the LORD said] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Matthew 22[41] While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
[42] Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
[43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
[44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
[46] And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.