1 John 3:9 - Is it cannot "practice" sin, or cannot "commit" sin?

[dhh712]

I’m not as sure about that last part as you are. I know I’ve never met, in person, a man actually walking in the Spirit, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen anymore. I rather think we have become pretty weak and so we don’t HAVE a Paul or a Peter to help us.

Ive met one man (not in person), who made that jump into not only being led by the Spirit but also actually walking IN the Spirit. He didn’t just experience “ and I in you“, he actually experienced the first part of that verse also.

Since I have never yet walked in the Spirit, I can’t really speak much about it, but God did bring that man into my life (but only by correspondence and zoom for a while) and he has told me some about it.

He is a…spy who went into the promised land and came back saying, it’s a good place and God has prepared it for us. And I believe him, but most dont. They just…don’t believe it and think he is making up his report about it.

I don’t know for sure if one can walk in the Spirit/stay in that promised land all the time or if it’s only sometimes, but I think, by his report, along with scripture, that if and when God sweeps you into it, you are not sinning at all while you are there because there is no sin IN Him at all. And, by his report,(and scripture) I think I’ve…pieced together that it takes a lot of trust to walk there and one speck of unbelief to stumble out of it, because there is no sin in Him, there and whatever is not of trust is sin. The way he describes it is that he did not have the maturity to stay there and didn’t really understand righteousness yet. He understood more of holiness because God took him there, but not so much about righteousness yet. for the longer time He walked there, I think he said it was a few years, he says he was…tricked out of it by listening to a man. For the other shorter time he walked there, I forget what he said caused him to stop remaining/abiding there, but I have a feeling (I don’t think I told him my feeling) that no matter what, God was sending him back to the desert to testify to us that it was a good place.
Anyway, I believe the man and I’ve learned from him some keys that unlock scripture. One big one anyway. It makes a lot of confusions disappear but…it takes practice to remember that key at all times. Ive picked it up and then dropped and lost It many times!
But when you abide in Him, rather than just Him abiding in you, it’s not so much that you yourself are holy but that you are walking in HIS holiness. (It’s God being there, and you being where He is that makes you holy - like the verse about is it the sacrifice on the altar that makes the temple holy? No, Gods presence there makes it holy. Anyway, I believe the man and I want to enter in there, I want to apprehend the thing I have been apprehended FOR. and…just as with Israel in the desert, only one thing prevents me from it that I can see and it is the same thing that prevented Israel. So that’s what I have been vigilant about - that I race to trust more and more and deal very swiftly with any speck of unbelief or mistrust in anything My Lord has said.

And your friend may have been perfectly sanctified at that time, God can sure make exceptions. I'm not going to say for sure that he was making it up. What I do know for sure is that he most likely didn't go around bragging about it, else then he wouldn't have been sanctified in his humility. One thing that God wants others to do is encourage the brethren. Those that go around touting their self-perceived holiness while condemning others are sinning by doing that (which of course they don't realize because they go around claiming about how perfect they are). The "holier than thou" crowd really turn others away from Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, it is in our nature for us to sin and God doesn't get rid of that nature in its entirety until we dwell with Him eternally.

Your words contradict the Bible.

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14).

Peter seemed to think there were false teachers who could not cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).
The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God. This was in context to their holy conduct (See: Revelation 14:1-5).

 

[CadyandZoe]

In other words, if one believes the wrong way about sin and they think they can sin and still be saved on even a smaller level, then they are justifying sin. It would not matter if they themselves even perfectly obeyed God. If they taught others that one can commit even one sin that God condemns and they lead a person into doing that, then they will have that other person’s blood on their hands. So if these types of Christians lead a person to think individual occasional sin does not lead to spiritual death, then they can potentially convince another believer to commit suicide with them thinking it will not jeopardize their salvation when in reality it does. Suicide is self murder, and the Scriptures say: No murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

I was following you right up to this section here. In order to address your concerns in the paragraph above, I think we need to add a third category, based on Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 7, wherein he describes his own experience with sin. But before that, I want to review a bit of chapter 6, where Paul sets up this alternate category.

Romans 6:15-23
He begins that section with a rhetorical question, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?" Paul's purpose is to give a voice to objectors, who question the authenticity of the Christian movement in light of the Jewish experience. From a Jewish perspective, the Gospel Paul preaches is false because it removes any incentive for a person to obey God. Without a commandment of God, why would anyone act morally or righteously? His objectors might ask Paul, "Doesn't your gospel promote sin because you have removed all incentive to live a righteous life?" In short, his answer will be in the negative, claiming that believers in Jesus Christ have another reason for living a righteous and moral life.

In Paul's view, all of us are going to be slaves to something or someone. Either we are slaves of sin or we are slaves of obedience. And we can't serve two masters. The followers of Christ, presumably, are slaves of obedience, or slaves of righteousness. Christ set them free of sin so that they might live in righteousness. In view of this, Paul argues, the followers of Christ have a new incentive to avoid sin. Even Gentiles who don't have a law, are motivated to obey righteousness because as followers of Jesus they are servants of righteousness.

Now let's turn our attention to Romans chapter 7, skipping to verse 7 where he begins a new point.

Romans 7:7-25
In this section, Paul turns his attention to the profundity of sin. To better understand his point here, we should understand that Paul is speaking about himself. We know Paul to be a man dedicated to obedience and a servant of righteousness. Having encouraged his readers to act as those who are serving righteousness, he now addresses a fundamental reality that all servants of righteousness face: the essential nature of our innermost being.

Here, Paul speaks autobiographically, about a man who is righteous and serves righteousness at the penultimate level, but at the ultimate level of his inner man, he finds that he is committing sins all the time. It's as if Paul were meditating on the Tenth Commandment one day, when he suddenly realized something new that he didn't see before. In his view, it was impossible to obey the Tenth Commandment. What is the Tenth Commandment? How is it different than the others?

Consider the final five or six commandments (depending on how you number them.) We see a list of proscriptions, forbidding certain behaviors: you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal and so on. The final commandment is different than all the rest in that while the others define what you will do (or not do) the final commandment defines who you will be.

In other words, not only are you forbidden to steal your neighbor's stuff, you are commanded to be the kind of person who wouldn't even think about doing such a thing. Not only are you forbidden to sleep with your neighbor's wife, you are commanded to be the kind of person who would never even think about doing such a thing. In short, the tenth commandment dictates who I shall be: a righteous person at the core of my inner man. Most Christians will, upon careful reflection, confess themselves to be sinners at the core level.

Paul concludes that while he is a man dedicated to righteousness and a man who gives his members over to the service of righteousness, he finds coveting of every kind within him. He remains a sinner at the core of his being, which is why he cries out, "who will free me of this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So then, there is another type of Christian. This one, at the penultimate level, walks as a servant of righteousness, but at the ultimate level of his or her being, is a sinner waiting to be set free in the ultimate sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And your friend may have been perfectly sanctified at that time, God can sure make exceptions. I'm not going to say for sure that he was making it up. What I do know for sure is that he most likely didn't go around bragging about it, else then he wouldn't have been sanctified in his humility. One thing that God wants others to do is encourage the brethren. Those that go around touting their self-perceived holiness while condemning others are sinning by doing that (which of course they don't realize because they go around claiming about how perfect they are). The "holier than thou" crowd really turn others away from Jesus.

There are always going to be fakers. Those who pretend to live holy and yet they are not really for doing that. That really should not be an excuse to not believe God’s Word, though (See again Romans 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Romans 13:14).

God’s people can only live holy by the working power of the LORD. What matters is if we are believing God’s Word or not.
The problem I have with what you believe is that you are promoting the idea that we are a slave to sin (Even when you believe it is possible God may make exceptions for some to obey? - That sounds like double talk to me.). In fact, in John 8:34: Jesus said of the Pharisees that he that sins is a slave to sin (Suggesting that you don’t have to be a slave to sin - See: Romans 6:15-23 about being a slave to righteousness). Jesus basically implied that this slave to sin will not abide in the house forever in John 8:35. This is told to us in Matthew 13:41-42. The Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM them who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So the believer who is a slave to sin is going to be cast out. That applies to me, you, and every other believer out there. If we don’t endure to the end and die in a righteous state, we are not going to make it Into the Kingdom. Jesus said STRIVE to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). The popular version of Christianity does not tell you to STRIVE to enter the straight gate at all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was following you right up to this section here. In order to address your concerns in the paragraph above, I think we need to add a third category, based on Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 7, wherein he describes his own experience with sin. But before that, I want to review a bit of chapter 6, where Paul sets up this alternate category.

Romans 6:15-23
He begins that section with a rhetorical question, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?" Paul's purpose is to give a voice to objectors, who question the authenticity of the Christian movement in light of the Jewish experience. From a Jewish perspective, the Gospel Paul preaches is false because it removes any incentive for a person to obey God. Without a commandment of God, why would anyone act morally or righteously? His objectors might ask Paul, "Doesn't your gospel promote sin because you have removed all incentive to live a righteous life?" In short, his answer will be in the negative, claiming that believers in Jesus Christ have another reason for living a righteous and moral life.

In Paul's view, all of us are going to be slaves to something or someone. Either we are slaves of sin or we are slaves of obedience. And we can't serve two masters. The followers of Christ, presumably, are slaves of obedience, or slaves of righteousness. Christ set them free of sin so that they might live in righteousness. In view of this, Paul argues, the followers of Christ have a new incentive to avoid sin. Even Gentiles who don't have a law, are motivated to obey righteousness because as followers of Jesus they are servants of righteousness.

Now let's turn our attention to Romans chapter 7, skipping to verse 7 where he begins a new point.

Romans 7:7-25
In this section, Paul turns his attention to the profundity of sin. To better understand his point here, we should understand that Paul is speaking about himself. We know Paul to be a man dedicated to obedience and a servant of righteousness. Having encouraged his readers to act as those who are serving righteousness, he now addresses a fundamental reality that all servants of righteousness face: the essential nature of our innermost being.

Here, Paul speaks autobiographically, about a man who is righteous and serves righteousness at the penultimate level, but at the ultimate level of his inner man, he finds that he is committing sins all the time. It's as if Paul were meditating on the Ten Commandments one day, when he suddenly realized something new that he didn't see before. In his view, it was impossible to obey the Tenth Commandment. What is the Tenth Commandment? How is it different than the others?

Consider the final five or six commandments (depending on how you number them.) We see a list of proscriptions, forbidding certain behaviors: you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal and so on. The final commandment is different than all the rest in that while the others define what you will do (or not do) the final commandment defines who you will be.

In other words, not only are you forbidden to steal your neighbor's stuff, you are commanded to be the kind of person who wouldn't even think about doing such a thing. Not only are you forbidden to sleep with your neighbor's wife, you are commanded to be the kind of person who would never even think about doing such a thing. In short, the tenth commandment dictates who I shall be: a righteous person at the core of my inner man. Most Christians will, upon careful reflection, confess themselves to be sinners at the core level.

Paul concludes that while he is a man dedicated to righteousness and a man who gives his members over to the service of righteousness, he finds coveting of every kind within him. He remains a sinner at the core of his being, which is why he cries out, "who will free me of this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So then, there is another type of Christ. This one, at the penultimate level, walks as a servant of righteousness, but at the ultimate level of his or her being, is a sinner waiting to be set free in the ultimate sense.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

 

[Lambano]

The problem with the OSAS doctrine is that it promotes a light view of sin which is a horrible death trap for many believers. Though it is technically true (because of the verse where Jesus says that all that the Father gives me I will not lose any, so if they actually were truly saved and then became lost that would make God a liar) I typically don't speak in that way because it promotes the wrong idea: that our sinful actions do not matter when they do.

Though I'm more of a "Reformation Arminian" (the 5 points were just a reaction to the Articles of Remonstrance), I agree with your point about promoting a light view of sin. This may be yet another lacking I need to ask God to supply.

 

[Behold]

So then, there is another type of Christ. This one, at the penultimate level, walks as a servant of righteousness, but at the ultimate level of his or her being, is a sinner waiting to be set free in the ultimate sense.

What you wrote is not related to the born again, but it is related to Legalism.

Paul teaches, beyond your initial understanding, as you didnt continue to read what Paul wrote about himself..
See, He is giving a testimony, ...of his DELIVERANCE, and Legalists, never ever read the rest of what he taught and always STOP before Paul teaches that he was delivered from that "what i would, would, not, situation".
Legalists, never read the rest of what He wrote, as Paul came to understand how to be delivered from that flesh, and he explains that at our "core" we can be "the righteousness of God", DELIVERED.

How?

"Whom the SON sets FREE, is FREE INDEED".

See that? That is not a believer being a sinner at their core... as you falsely teach...

Next..

Paul said, and you don't understand yet..

"Christ/God. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.......gives, gives, gives, ME ME ME ME< the VICTORY">. 1 Corinthians 15:57

Do you understand the definition of the word "ALWAYS" ????

You just taught the opposite, because you don't know your NT very well, Candy&Zoe.

Your sad understanding of the Gospel and the power of the Blood of Jesus would have believers believing they are STUCK in "oh, i wish i could live it"

Paul said you can, and said "CHRIST always gives you the Victory", = over your flesh, the world, and the devil.

Its amazing how many people who claim to be Christians, have no understanding of the power of the Blood of Jesus to DELIVER YOU from your sin, your carnal mind, and your sinning and confessing FAILED discipleship.. ... ect.

 

[HIM]

Grace, I want to address you separately because you are the most in peril of believing false doctrine. We Must be born again, and that means we Must receive the Holy Spirit indwelling us. The church fathers that taught you twisted the doctrine you just quoted and don't even mention the Spirit because they don't know anything about Him or His work in us. Those in the Spirit ARE NOT IN THE FLESH. That is what you don't understand any better than those church fathers did. Read this.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Here is the reason. Read Romans 6:6-7 The old man is the old carnal nature Paul calls "the flesh."

And 8;2 where it says we have been set free from the law of sin and death that Paul said he was in bondage to in chapter 7. We have been set free from the Law of sin which is as Paul stated. We can't help what we do because sin in slaves, brings us in to bondage to it.
We can't help ourselves but to sin prior to Christ. As Jesus said in John, he that commits sin is a servant to it. But Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of Sin AND death that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh. For if Jesus has set us free, free we are indeed!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, I think we can get pretty close to being perfectly sanctified (though it seems not many of us get there), but to be perfect like Jesus only occurs when we are dwelling with Him eternally.

I know the verses that say we are to be blameless before Him, but we have to take the whole counsel of God into consideration not just part of it. I've got to run but I'm going to try to later look into how to reconcile those verses with how we are not sanctified perfectly here in this lifetime.

What I hear in what you’ve said is that we can be pretty holy or partway holy or more holy than another man, but it doesn’t make sense to me and the rules for sacrifices were not that they be partway unblemished or pretty close to unblemished. To be holy does not include any sin. God alone is holy and there is no sin in Him at all. So to say you can be partway holy is actually to downgrade holiness or to not keep holiness as even a…sure concept. Holiness is no spot or wrinkle whatsoever. Christ in us is the hope of that glory.

The scriptures are for training in righteousness. You can not train to be more and more holy. Holiness is not like that. You can learn and train in righteousness, which is the one tablet - love your neighbor as much as you love yourself, treat others at least as well as you treat yourself, do no harm to your neighbor.

The other tablet concerns holiness. And that is something you don’t learn to do and practice. That is more a place - where God is. He either takes you there or He doesn’t.

And abide in Me and I in you are two different things. Jesus will always remain in us because He is faithful even when we are not. He will not leave us. But remaining in Him is a different thing.


These are some of the things that man taught me and I have checked them with the words from God and the man is right.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was following you right up to this section here. In order to address your concerns in the paragraph above, I think we need to add a third category, based on Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 7, wherein he describes his own experience with sin. But before that, I want to review a bit of chapter 6, where Paul sets up this alternate category.

Romans 6:15-23
He begins that section with a rhetorical question, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?" Paul's purpose is to give a voice to objectors, who question the authenticity of the Christian movement in light of the Jewish experience. From a Jewish perspective, the Gospel Paul preaches is false because it removes any incentive for a person to obey God. Without a commandment of God, why would anyone act morally or righteously? His objectors might ask Paul, "Doesn't your gospel promote sin because you have removed all incentive to live a righteous life?" In short, his answer will be in the negative, claiming that believers in Jesus Christ have another reason for living a righteous and moral life.

In Paul's view, all of us are going to be slaves to something or someone. Either we are slaves of sin or we are slaves of obedience. And we can't serve two masters. The followers of Christ, presumably, are slaves of obedience, or slaves of righteousness. Christ set them free of sin so that they might live in righteousness. In view of this, Paul argues, the followers of Christ have a new incentive to avoid sin. Even Gentiles who don't have a law, are motivated to obey righteousness because as followers of Jesus they are servants of righteousness.

Now let's turn our attention to Romans chapter 7, skipping to verse 7 where he begins a new point.

Romans 7:7-25
In this section, Paul turns his attention to the profundity of sin. To better understand his point here, we should understand that Paul is speaking about himself. We know Paul to be a man dedicated to obedience and a servant of righteousness. Having encouraged his readers to act as those who are serving righteousness, he now addresses a fundamental reality that all servants of righteousness face: the essential nature of our innermost being.

Here, Paul speaks autobiographically, about a man who is righteous and serves righteousness at the penultimate level, but at the ultimate level of his inner man, he finds that he is committing sins all the time. It's as if Paul were meditating on the Tenth Commandment one day, when he suddenly realized something new that he didn't see before. In his view, it was impossible to obey the Tenth Commandment. What is the Tenth Commandment? How is it different than the others?

Consider the final five or six commandments (depending on how you number them.) We see a list of proscriptions, forbidding certain behaviors: you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal and so on. The final commandment is different than all the rest in that while the others define what you will do (or not do) the final commandment defines who you will be.

In other words, not only are you forbidden to steal your neighbor's stuff, you are commanded to be the kind of person who wouldn't even think about doing such a thing. Not only are you forbidden to sleep with your neighbor's wife, you are commanded to be the kind of person who would never even think about doing such a thing. In short, the tenth commandment dictates who I shall be: a righteous person at the core of my inner man. Most Christians will, upon careful reflection, confess themselves to be sinners at the core level.

Paul concludes that while he is a man dedicated to righteousness and a man who gives his members over to the service of righteousness, he finds coveting of every kind within him. He remains a sinner at the core of his being, which is why he cries out, "who will free me of this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So then, there is another type of Christian. This one, at the penultimate level, walks as a servant of righteousness, but at the ultimate level of his or her being, is a sinner waiting to be set free in the ultimate sense.

One of the most eye opening experiences for me was realizing that Christians are not under the 613 laws of Moses. Yes, there are laws in the Torah that can be of good benefit it one uses it lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8). There are even laws that have been repeated from the Old Law on into the New (This is the righteousness of the Law - like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet - Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10). But Christians are not under the majority of the Old law. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Even the Jerusalem council ruled that the Gentile Christians did not have to keep the Laws of Moses (See Acts 15). For we cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses (Acts 13:39). For example: Christians do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, holy days, dietary laws, circumcision, etcetera. But if one seeks to be justified by the Old Law, they cannot overcome sin (Which Paul describes this experience in being under the Law while he was a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24). The word “flesh” mentioned in Romans 8 is tied to the one who seeks to wrongfully be under the Old Testament Laws of Moses. They want to obey God by the Old way, but they cannot overcome sin because they don’t understand that the Law and the prophets was until John the Baptist. Jesus fulfilled the Old law upon the cross. We are New Covenant believers and we look to the commands that come from Jesus and His followers and we don’t look to Moses. The law was given to Israel and not the church. Believers need God’s grace through faith in Jesus, and then they can obey the LORD in what He commanded. But Christians are not under the Old ways. One will only be a slave to sin or in the flesh if they seek to be under the Law wrongfully.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

I am aware of the debate surrounding the question of whether or not Paul was speaking of his present experience. From his conclusion, he makes it obvious that his experience is on-going. That is, in the final remark he confesses himself to be a sinner and this condition continues, He tells you, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Obviously, he has not been freed from his body as of the time of writing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am very, very desirous to have this good conversation @dhh712, but it will be necessary to not be distracted by some of the posts and get sidetracked. Some are not ready yet to see these things, but I’ve seen by what you write that you are ready to begin bearing them. Not that I fully understand, but I do know a little. And I think it will help you greatly just as it has helped me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And 8;2 where it says we have been set free from the law of sin and death that Paul said he was in bondage to in chapter 7. We have been set free from the Law of sin which is as Paul stated. We can't help what we do because sin in slaves, brings us in to bondage to it.
We can't help ourselves but to sin prior to Christ. As Jesus said in John, he that commits sin is a servant to it. But Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of Sin AND death that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh. For if Jesus has set us free, free we are indeed!

What is the righteousness of the Law in Romans 8:4?

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
It was carried over into the Laws of Christ into the New Testament.
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).
The Spirit will help us to love our neighbor.

In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is speaking in the present tense of his past life experience of being a Pharisee who was under the Old Law without Jesus Christ in his life yet. It’s why he asks who shall deliver me from this body of death?

Paul struggled with sin as a Pharisee under the Old Law.

The word “flesh” in Romans 8 is tied to one trying to be under the Old Testament Laws of Moses (of which they will be enslaved by their own sin).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am aware of the debate surrounding the question of whether or not Paul was speaking of his present experience. From his conclusion, he makes it obvious that his experience is on-going. That is, in the final remark he confesses himself to be a sinner and this condition continues, He tells you, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Obviously, he has not been freed from his body as of the time of writing.

I can tell you about a past experience of mine talking in the present tense. People today do it all the time. So the fact that Paul was taking in the present tense does not prove that he was talking about his experience as a Christian.

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problems with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

(Continued in my next post to you):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am aware of the debate surrounding the question of whether or not Paul was speaking of his present experience. From his conclusion, he makes it obvious that his experience is on-going. That is, in the final remark he confesses himself to be a sinner and this condition continues, He tells you, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Obviously, he has not been freed from his body as of the time of writing.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

(Continued in my next post to you):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am aware of the debate surrounding the question of whether or not Paul was speaking of his present experience. From his conclusion, he makes it obvious that his experience is on-going. That is, in the final remark he confesses himself to be a sinner and this condition continues, He tells you, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Obviously, he has not been freed from his body as of the time of writing.

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:

Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

Earlier this semester, my good friend Ken Berding and I were discussing the different views on Romans 7:14-25 and decided that we would each write a blog post summarizing our reasons for holding opposing views on the passage. Last week, Ken gave a great defense of the view that...

www.thegoodbookblog.com

 

[CadyandZoe]

What you wrote is not related to the born again, but it is related to Legalism.

Paul teaches, beyond your initial understanding, as you didnt continue to read what Paul wrote about himself..
See, He is giving a testimony, ...of his DELIVERANCE, and Legalists, never ever read the rest of what he taught and always STOP before Paul teaches that he was delivered from that "what i would, would, not, situation".
Legalists, never read the rest of what He wrote, as Paul came to understand how to be delivered from that flesh, and he explains that at our "core" we can be "the righteousness of God", DELIVERED.

How?

"Whom the SON sets FREE, is FREE INDEED".

See that? That is not a believer being a sinner at their core... as you falsely teach...

Next..

Paul said, and you don't understand yet..

"Christ/God. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.......gives, gives, gives, ME ME ME ME< the VICTORY">. 1 Corinthians 15:57

Do you understand the definition of the word "ALWAYS" ????

You just taught the opposite, because you don't know your NT very well, Candy&Zoe.

Your sad understanding of the Gospel and the power of the Blood of Jesus would have believers believing they are STUCK in "oh, i wish i could live it"

Paul said you can, and said "CHRIST always gives you the Victory", = over your flesh, the world, and the devil.

Its amazing how many people who claim to be Christians, have no understanding of the power of the Blood of Jesus to DELIVER YOU from your sin, your carnal mind, and your sinning and confessing FAILED discipleship.. ... ect.

I believe you have mistakenly jumped to a conclusion that Paul didn't intend. While he thanks God for the work of Christ, he doesn't thank God that he has, in fact, been set free from the body of death. The conclusion of the matter is Paul's confession that he continues to serve the law of sin. (verse 25) Paul would say, and has said, that being freed of sin in fact, is a future hope. He says, "For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?" We are waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, which he equates with the redemption of our body. The question Paul raises in 7:24 he answers in 8:24. Paul was not yet freed from the body of death; he was waiting eagerly for it in hope.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe you have mistakenly jumped to a conclusion that Paul didn't intend. While he thanks God for the work of Christ, he doesn't thank God that he has, in fact, been set free from the body of death. The conclusion of the matter is Paul's confession that he continues to serve the law of sin. (verse 25) Paul would say, and has said, that being freed of sin in fact, is a future hope. He says, "For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?" We are waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, which he equates with the redemption of our body. The question Paul raises in 7:24 he answers in 8:24. Paul was not yet freed from the body of death; he was waiting eagerly for it in hope.

But taking this kind of wrong interpretation contradicts many other verses like Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and 1 Peter 4:1-2.
It’s the same with those who try to make 1 John 1:i8 a banner flag that they must always sin this side of Heaven. It just doesn’t work when you read 1 John 2:3-4. It contradicts the context. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). In other words, there were folk who thought that when they sinned, it did not exist or that sin was an illusion. Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion and not real. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them In not to think this way. It’s not saying we will always have sin in our life. That’s false. God says, “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (See 1 Peter 1:16). That’s not possible if we justify even one sin or if we justify the wrong idea that we must sin again at some future point in time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And 8;2 where it says we have been set free from the law of sin and death that Paul said he was in bondage to in chapter 7. We have been set free from the Law of sin which is as Paul stated. We can't help what we do because sin in slaves, brings us in to bondage to it.
We can't help ourselves but to sin prior to Christ. As Jesus said in John, he that commits sin is a servant to it. But Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of Sin AND death that the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh. For if Jesus has set us free, free we are indeed!

Can I suggest another interpretation of 8:2? One might conclude Paul means to suggest that we have been freed from the principle of sin and death. Provisionally, that is true, but one is not actually set free from the principle of sin and death yet. We are awaiting the cessation of that principle, which will take place "when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality" according to Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:54. At that time our hope will be realized.

But I don't think Paul was talking about the principle of sin and death in Romans 8:2. In that context, I think Paul was talking about the Levitical sacrificial system which concerned itself with both sin and death. All it did, according to Paul, was serve as a reminder of sins year by year. Hebrews 10:3 The worshippers were cleansed, but their sins were not take away.

For now, we are freed of condemnation, which is what Paul meant to say in my opinion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Y'know, I think it may take more faith to keep trusting God to love you when you know you're screwed-up and you're not getting any better and your prayers aren't getting answered.

I have seen this really weird thing. When I think my prayers aren’t being answered (this is aside from not receiving because I am asking with the wrong heart motive) that is when they ARE being answered but it’s being done so slowly that I can’t see it yet AND it’s happening in a much different way than I expected.