There is an Old Testament grace and a New Testament grace. This video explores the difference.
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The Gospel: From law to grace
- Thread starter Episkopos
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I think we confuse OT forgiveness with NT grace. God has always been merciful....and He forgives. NT grace however is where we are empowered to live in a way where we no longer need forgiveness...since we are waling in the love of God. Where there is remission (freedom) of sins there is no longer a need for sacrifice for sins.
Behold
Well-Known Member
There are many differences between how God's Grace is applied in the OT, as compared to how its applied now, in the "time of the Gentiles" before the Trib starts.
For example, in the Old Testament, you didnt have access to a "one time eternal sacrifice for ALL your sin".
Now you do.
This is the finished work of Jesus on the Cross., which explains : 2 Corinthians 5:19 and Romans 4:8
For example, in the Old Testament, you didnt have access to a "one time eternal sacrifice for ALL your sin".
Now you do.
This is the finished work of Jesus on the Cross., which explains : 2 Corinthians 5:19 and Romans 4:8
| "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" Luke 2:52 |
| "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2 |
How much like Jesus can we be? How much like God can we be?
What is the limit for God? ... and for us?
Actually, Jesus died for ALL of the sins of the whole world. It is very wrong to take the fulness of what Jesus did for oneself. Only God can forgive and justify.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus died for EACH individual person.
Its not selfish to receive what He did.
Its in fact, required by God that you do, if you want to go to heaven.
See, every person who REPENTS of unbelief by giving their faith in Christ to God, has been individually born again.,... individually justified, and individually redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.
So, the offer of the Cross of Christ is universal, but the application of this Salvation, is "per- individual"., Episkopos.
God's attributes and character are exactly the same as they were in Gen 1:1 right through until now late 2022 and until the return of Mashiach.
That means grace, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are exactly the same. God does not change!!! He was slain before the foundations of the world. Mashiach's sacrifice was manifest in the NT, but God is not bound by our earthly time frames, He is infinite and cannot be bound by time. There is nothing new in the NT it is just true. The NT is the OT revealed. Translators put it as New and have the blank page in the middle separating the two. Giving a false representation of time.
Think on this if NT and covenant where after the death and resurrection of Mashiach well then all the gospels right up until the last few chapters of each gospel are OT covenant as Mashiach hadn't died yet. Now I know that will upset many people and their modern day denominational doctrines and theologies of men but hey, can't argue with reality.
Let's weigh it in the balance? Did the 12 disciples and the many others that followed Yeshua including Himself eat unclean for e.g., pig, shellfish, etc. etc. while Yeshua walked on the earth? Answer honestly now!!! The answer no they did not, as this would cause Yeshua to sin and thus not be the innocent sacrifice needed to pay the price for mankind's fallen sinful state. He walked and lived obeying the Torah (the teachings and instructions of God) English uses law (a very bad choice of word to use to try and explain the word Torah).
Peter reveals much info decades after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. He had a vision where he was told to kill and eat unclean animals and Peter's reply was not so Lord nothing unclean has passed my lips (remember decades after the death and resurrection) nothing changed Peter who was part of Yeshua's inner circle still obeyed the Torah!!! Why because none of that changed, God was and is the same yesterday, today and forever and so are His attributes, including His love, grace and mercy they always were and always will be for those who choose to receive them.
The same principle can be applied to many other areas that most have tossed out as well.
Shalom
That means grace, mercy, forgiveness, and justice are exactly the same. God does not change!!! He was slain before the foundations of the world. Mashiach's sacrifice was manifest in the NT, but God is not bound by our earthly time frames, He is infinite and cannot be bound by time. There is nothing new in the NT it is just true. The NT is the OT revealed. Translators put it as New and have the blank page in the middle separating the two. Giving a false representation of time.
Think on this if NT and covenant where after the death and resurrection of Mashiach well then all the gospels right up until the last few chapters of each gospel are OT covenant as Mashiach hadn't died yet. Now I know that will upset many people and their modern day denominational doctrines and theologies of men but hey, can't argue with reality.
Let's weigh it in the balance? Did the 12 disciples and the many others that followed Yeshua including Himself eat unclean for e.g., pig, shellfish, etc. etc. while Yeshua walked on the earth? Answer honestly now!!! The answer no they did not, as this would cause Yeshua to sin and thus not be the innocent sacrifice needed to pay the price for mankind's fallen sinful state. He walked and lived obeying the Torah (the teachings and instructions of God) English uses law (a very bad choice of word to use to try and explain the word Torah).
Peter reveals much info decades after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. He had a vision where he was told to kill and eat unclean animals and Peter's reply was not so Lord nothing unclean has passed my lips (remember decades after the death and resurrection) nothing changed Peter who was part of Yeshua's inner circle still obeyed the Torah!!! Why because none of that changed, God was and is the same yesterday, today and forever and so are His attributes, including His love, grace and mercy they always were and always will be for those who choose to receive them.
The same principle can be applied to many other areas that most have tossed out as well.
Shalom
Behold
Well-Known Member
Im not certain what Bible you are reading, but in Acts Chaptter 10, God taught Peter that what He had thought was "unclean" was made Clean by God.
The context of this verse is that Peter didn't yet know that the GENTILES could become of the Household of God.
So, the vision in Acts 10 is showing Peter that what God makes clean through the Blood of Yeshua, is redeemed indeed.
This without question. Whoever GOD makes clean is clean. However, in your scheme you would have being made clean by people rather than God. There is a big difference between being made clean by God and being made clean by our own decision to believe or not.
Notice what you wrote..."See, every person who REPENTS of unbelief by giving their faith in Christ to God, has been individually born again.,... individually justified, and individually redeemed by the blood of the Lamb."
The above statement puts the cleaning in the hands of people not God. Our beliefs have no power whatsoever. it is only the faith OF Christ that has power. Our decision for Christ is not what is important. It is God's decision about us that counts. Only God justifies. You have this backwards, putting the active ingredient in the hands of people rather than God.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Ive never even suggested that a person can be "made clean", by "people"
So, you are just posting nonsense, Episkopos.
The only way a person can be "made clean" is to become "made righteous".
Understand?
And you can't do that for yourself, and no person can do that for you.
Final answer?
GOD, in the FLESH, on the CROSS, becoming your sin and you becoming, """ made righteous" AS """"the righteousness of God in Christ."""
See that?
Thats the Grace of God as "the gift of Salvation, as "the gift of Righteousness".
That is HOW and WHY a person becomes "clean" before God.
THat's what i teach.
Be sure you get it right next time, or i'll think you are lying on purpose.
1. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
2. He became the sin of ALL men.
3. The only way that you are making that about you is merely to CLAIM it is for you personally
4. That puts you as the one who decides you are saved.
The truth is that receiving the gift of grace gives you the power to walk as Jesus did...above sin. So there is no need to make empty claims. When a person is under grace and IN Christ they do not sin.
Of course there is also the righteous standing with God through repentance and humility...NOT claiming to be saved. But that way does not describe your claim. You claim to be righteous because of your own decision. You are trying to apply what only God can apply.
Yes exactly right you are correct. Praise Yahweh!!! Not many people understand this. As it is most commonly read that the vision Peter had meant they can eat whatever they want. However as you correctly pointed out it has nothing to do with food. The vision was given using unclean foods to explain that Gentiles are not unclean as was the mindset of the Jews of the day. The point I was making Peter still followed the Torah by him saying nothing unclean has entered my mouth. This is decades after the death and resurrection of Messiah. The things did not change. This is also in the context of the OP about God's grace and mercy. God's grace and mercy have always been there, it is not NT only God's grace and mercy does not change and is all through the OT. God is the same and does not change just like His word (law/Torah). As evidenced and understood by Peter through his initial confession of not eating unclean after the death and resurrection. It was not until afterwards did Peter realize fully what the vision meant and was revealing to him.
Following the Torah/Law does not save you it blesses you two different ideas. God showed His grace and mercy from the beginning when He covered Adam and Eve with an animal skin. Blood was spilt for them to be covered. Many believe this animal may have even been a lamb. There are many instances in the OT where God shows His grace and mercy. The NT fits in perfectly with the OT. Just because Yeshua died does not do away with these things. His sacrifice was for atonement/redemption not to remove the Law. Or he is removing Himself as He is the Law/Word of God manifested in the flesh. Yeshua is the word of God He is the Torah of God He is the Law of God, He didn't do away with Himself or abolish Himself. As revealed in Matt 5:17. Fulfill does not mean abolish or do away with. This is a Hebrew idiom. You know the ones that wrote the Bible.
Blessings and Shalom
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