2 Peter 3:10 The Big Whoosh

[Spiritual Israelite]

Clarity is in the eye of the beholder. We have all experienced this. We, myself included, think our own interpretation is clearly taught in the scripture. And we should always think so until proven otherwise. I get that. I'm simply relating my own point of view for you to consider. If it isn't convincing then don't change your mind simply because I said it.

With regard to Peter's statement, bear in mind that HE doesn't say the prophecy was fulfilled. We are reading that into his words. What he actually says is, "this is that" drawing a comparison between them. Now, your interpretation of the Acts passage is certainly possible, taken by itself. But once we go and look at Joel ourselves, we find significant details that Peter left out. This invites us to think a bit more about what Peter was getting at.

This is true in a general way as Paul has said. "Whosoever" refers to all those, whether Jew or Gentile who call upon the name of the Lord. This is a true statement.

Nonetheless, Joel's prophecy is concerned with those Jews who make the trip to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord, not in regarding salvation from sin, but in regard to deliverance from death -- whether death should come from starvation or incineration.

That moment will be a test of faith for the people of Israel, who live during that time. Those who have faith will come to Jerusalem when the Lord Calls. Those who don't have faith will stay behind. Those who stay behind will die; those who come to Jerusalem will survive.

It appears that you are denying that the day of Pentecost even partially fulfilled Joel 2:28-32, which Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21. Is that true?

 

[CadyandZoe]

This prophesy began to be fulfilled at Pentecost according to Ezekiel. Because it is in Christ that man is sprinkled with clean water, and a new heart and a new spirit He puts in us at Pentecost. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord have been cleansed from all filthiness, and idols by the blood of Christ shed on His sacrificial cross.

Again, what you say is true in general. But Ezekiel is talking about a specific time and place when and where God will vindicate himself. This requires that God bring his people back to the land, bless them materially, protect them from their enemies. In return this also requires the people to keep his commandments and worship him from the heart, soul, mind and spirit. And this must take place before eternity begins.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is truly hopeless. It does not seem like you are trying very hard to understand what I'm saying. Regardless, I'm tired of trying. Thanks, anyway.

You still haven't explained why it matters. If a believer is looking forward to the NHNE, then why does it matter whether or not it comes a thousand years after the Second Advent.

Suppose mother tells daughter that father is going to buy her a new pony when father returns. In your view, daughter should expect a new horse the day her father returns. In my view, it doesn't matter when father buys her the horse, as long as he keeps his promise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It appears that you are denying that the day of Pentecost even partially fulfilled Joel 2:28-32, which Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21. Is that true?

Yes, I don't think Peter was suggesting that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. I do not subscribe to the concept of partial fulfillment. If you do, then you bring that to the text. The Bible doesn't teach that idea.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course not! It's true that it could have happened in the lifetime of any of his readers because no one knows the day or hour Jesus will come (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wasn't possible for it to happen by now. But, that is up to the Lord to determine when it will happen, obviously.

Okay we agree on something. Now if Peter was talking to people whom he knew or suspected would not witness the coming of Jesus in their lifetimes, then we can easily reject the idea that Peter's point rests on that expectation. In fact, Peter's point is perfectly understood apart from whether Jesus returns in his lifetime or 2000 years. Later. The essential exhortation is this: since we understand that this world will be destroyed (or perhaps purged) with fire, then what kind of people ought we to be? The answer: we should be the kind of people who place little value on the things that will not survive into the next age.

We can do this right now. We don't need to wait until the next age to appreciate the transitory nature of this world; and we don't need to wait until that day in order to appreciate those things that will survive this age, including but not limited to love, faith, hope, righteousness, goodness, the gifts of the spirit, and fellow believers. If we have extra resources, invest in people, and invest in the promotion of the gospel.

We can do all of that and more right now, today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You still haven't explained why it matters.

Yes, I have, but I guess you missed it. Or you didn't understand what I was saying for whatever reason.

Why it matters is because Peter was talking about being careful to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. God's wrath will come down on the day of the Lord, which I see as the day Christ returns. So, that will be a very bad day for those who are not godly and are not Christians. Peter is warning his readers to be careful not to be among those who experience God's wrath on that day. That's why it matters. If the wrath that Peter wrote about (and that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:2-3) wasn't going to happen until a thousand years after Christ returns, then it can't possibly happen in the lifetimes of his readers and it would make what he said in 2 Peter 3:11 completely pointless.

If a believer is looking forward to the NHNE, then why does it matter whether or not it comes a thousand years after the Second Advent.

Suppose mother tells daughter that father is going to buy her a new pony when father returns. In your view, daughter should expect a new horse the day her father returns. In my view, it doesn't matter when father buys her the horse, as long as he keeps his promise.

You're missing the point. I'm talking about avoiding God's wrath that comes down just before the NHNE are ushered in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I don't think Peter was suggesting that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. I do not subscribe to the concept of partial fulfillment. If you do, then you bring that to the text. The Bible doesn't teach that idea.

You deny even the most obvious things! It's unbelievable. I believe you are completely lacking in spiritual discernment, which is concerning.

Peter was very clear that what was happening on the day of Pentecost was at least the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:...(rest of Joel 2:28-32 quoted in verses 19-21).

Peter said "this" (what was happening on the day of Pentecost" was "that" which was the propecy from Joel 2:28-32. It couldn't be more clear. I think if scripture said 1 + 1 = 2, you would find a way to deny it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm just shaking my head over here.

Acts 2:14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

This is what Peter said after the Holy Spirit came and filled many people there in Jerusalem and they began speaking in tongues and worshiping God and such and after some there were thinking that those people were drunk.

Peter said "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" and then he proceeded to quote Joel 2:28-32. When he said "this" he was obviously referring to what had just happened there with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in many people there. So, how can you deny that what happened on the day of Pentecost was at least part of the fulfillment of the prophecy from Joel when Peter explicitly indicated that it was? Or are you just saying that it was not completely fulfilled at that time (which is not clear from what you said)? If so, then I would agree with that.

My view is that the prophecy began to be fulfilled at that time and has has an ongoing fufillment ever since. One of the things that Peter quoted from Joel is that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and that is obviously still happening today.

I get all that. But I don't think Peter held your view that prophesies find partial fulfillment, which is why he didn't say or suggest that Joel was "fulfilled" i.e. completed. There is definitely a correlation and a similarity between Pentecost and Joel 2. But a single correlative element isn't a fulfillment if the term fulfillment means "completion."

Maybe it's just semantics. You can call it a partial fulfillment if you like. I have no problem with that. But in a conversation where the issue centers on a prophecy which speaks about an existential crisis for those living in Israel, which is one of the major markers of Jesus return, I wouldn't want to lead anyone astray suggesting that Pentecost fulfilled Joel 2.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay we agree on something.

I thought we agreed on a lot of things, as you said in another post? You know that was a funny thing for you to say, right? We agree on very little and you know that.

Now if Peter was talking to people whom he knew or suspected would not witness the coming of Jesus in their lifetimes, then we can easily reject the idea that Peter's point rests on that expectation. In fact, Peter's point is perfectly understood apart from whether Jesus returns in his lifetime or 2000 years. Later. The essential exhortation is this: since we understand that this world will be destroyed (or perhaps purged) with fire, then what kind of people ought we to be? The answer: we should be the kind of people who place little value on the things that will not survive into the next age.

We can do this right now. We don't need to wait until the next age to appreciate the transitory nature of this world; and we don't need to wait until that day in order to appreciate those things that will survive this age, including but not limited to love, faith, hope, righteousness, goodness, the gifts of the spirit, and fellow believers. If we have extra resources, invest in people, and invest in the promotion of the gospel.

We can do all of that and more right now, today.

Of course! We should already be doing that today because for all we know the day of the Lord's return and the global wrath accompanying the arrive of the day of the Lord could happen any day now. We need to examine ourselves and see if we belong to Christ or not now so that we will be ready for when He returns and not be among those who experience His wrath, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, when He returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I get all that. But I don't think Peter held your view that prophesies find partial fulfillment, which is why he didn't say or suggest that Joel was "fulfilled" i.e. completed.

Not fulfilled completely. It was the beginning of the fulfillment. Joel, who Peter was quoting, indicated that the fulfillment would occur in "the last days". The last days had begun already back then and lead up to the day of Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Don't you understand that prophecies can have an ongoing fulfillment? I know you do because you believe the prophecies regarding the day of the Lord have an ongoing fuilfillment over a thousand year period. So, why are you acting as if you can't understand this concept?

 

[rwb]

With regard to Peter's statement, bear in mind that HE doesn't say the prophecy was fulfilled. We are reading that into his words. What he actually says is, "this is that" drawing a comparison between them. Now, your interpretation of the Acts passage is certainly possible, taken by itself. But once we go and look at Joel ourselves, we find significant details that Peter left out. This invites us to think a bit more about what Peter was getting at.

No I am not reading into the words written by Luke. At least it is commonly acknowledged that Luke is the author of the book of Acts. I agree that Luke does not say the prophecy is entirely fulfilled. That's obvious because the fulfillment will not be complete until all who call upon the name of the Lord are saved. But Luke clearly states the prophesy of Joel was fulfilled at Pentecost, and that cannot be reconciled unless we understand the fulfillment did not end at Pentecost, but only began there and will not end until the final Day of the Lord comes after time on this earth shall be no more.

Nonetheless, Joel's prophecy is concerned with those Jews who make the trip to Jerusalem to call upon the name of the Lord, not in regarding salvation from sin, but in regard to deliverance from death -- whether death should come from starvation or incineration.

That moment will be a test of faith for the people of Israel, who live during that time. Those who have faith will come to Jerusalem when the Lord Calls. Those who don't have faith will stay behind. Those who stay behind will die; those who come to Jerusalem will survive.

Prove what you allege! Bring forth the Scripture to defend your assumption that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord for salvation is merely salvation from physical death.

Romans 10:12-17 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Taken]

As I said, if you're applying "God's Wrath" to Eternal Punishment, then of course God's Wrath does not apply to Converted man, which I take to mean "Regenerated man." I do not, however, equate "God's Wrath" only with Eternal Punishment.

God's anger has been directed at His saints, at times, too. We've all made God angry--every time we fail to live in love. But He is also merciful, in particular towards those who repent.

Rom 3.3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not!

There is a difference between God's "wrath," which comes upon us all when we are ungodly, and his "coming wrath," which refers to God's final judgment.

Gods Wrath is during the 7 Seals, 7 Trumps, 7 Vials.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I am not reading into the words written by Luke. At least it is commonly acknowledged that Luke is the author of the book of Acts.

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Note: I'm not saying you don't already know this, I just thought I'd share it in case there is anyone who doubts that Luke wrote the book of Acts.

At the beginning of Acts, the author addresses Theophilus and refers to a previous "treatise" or book that he had written to him. As we can see in Luke 1:3, the book of Luke was written to Theophilus. So, that's how we know that Luke wrote the book of Acts. Just thought I'd share this in case anyone wasn't already aware of it.

Prove what you allege! Bring forth the Scripture to defend your assumption that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord for salvation is merely salvation from physical death.

Romans 10:12-17 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Exactly. It should be obvious that Peter was talking about spiritual salvation there just as Paul was when talking about the same thing in Romans 10:12-17.

 

[Taken]

My reply was to this statement where you seem to believe we might know who and who is not a believer!

Doesn’t matter if You “Believe” or “Know” what applies to any other.
Gods Salvation was PAID for and offered to YOU to TAKE it or not.
Only God and yourself “for sure KNOWS” Your Hearts thoughts.

 

[Taken]

Why did you not respond to anything I said in my post? Do you not know that Jesus reigns now?

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Christ Jesus IS the Power of God. He is the Life of God with Authority to Save WHOM He will and destroy WHOM He will.
Jesus’ Kingdom has NOT YET been manifested ON Earth.
Every man has Freewill to Stand With or Against the Lord God.
An individual’s standing is NOT secret to God.

 

[Taken]

But He said it is not of this world. He never said it ever would be. You should accept what He said.


No, His kingdom not being of this world means that it's not a worldly kingdom. Wordly kingdoms are temporary and evil. It's similar to how Jesus said His followers are not of this world. We're in the world, but we don't follow the evil ways of this world. Neither does His kingdom.

There is a reason I do not solicit you for my teacher.
I accept IN CONTEXT what my teacher reveals.
Men IN this world, IN Christ are NOT OF this world, even though they may be Bodily Alive occupying the face of the Earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christ Jesus IS the Power of God. He is the Life of God with Authority to Save WHOM He will and destroy WHOM He will.
Jesus’ Kingdom has NOT YET been manifested ON Earth.
Every man has Freewill to Stand With or Against the Lord God.
An individual’s standing is NOT secret to God.

It never will be manifested on earth the way you think it will. Jesus said Himself that His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). He will deliver His kingdom that came without observation to the Father when He comes at the end of the age (1 Cor 15:22-24, Matt 13:40-43). Then the kingdom will be manifested on the (new/renewed) earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a reason I do not solicit you for my teacher.

I could not care less about that. You should have the Holy Spirit as your teacher.

I accept IN CONTEXT what my teacher reveals.
Men IN this world, IN Christ are NOT OF this world, even though they may be Bodily Alive occupying the face of the Earth.

But, do you know what that means? Your previous post would suggest that you don't.

 

[Timtofly]

Each individual believer makes up the Church on earth, who are called to endure to the point of physical death or until Christ comes again on the last day.

That is why it is not the church. The church does not stop existing as each individual physically dies.

The endurance is at the personal individual level, not the church as a body.

 

[Angel Faith]

Well done.

I want to ask if anyone else looks at the star field background at the very start of the video and noticed what looks like verticle hands clutching each other?

You know the classic painting, The Creation of Adam? Featuring God seated in a cross section of the human brain, pointing to Adam who's pointing to him?

This looks like two vertical arms in that starfield. One at the bottom , the other parallel to it at the top and right in the middle of the image. Right at where the play button appears in the center of the screen.

Anyone else see that?