Eternal Life is Now not Later

[rwb]

God stated people die sir, it was satan that said they don't. The Bible is clear that the dead are not living in another realm Rw.

You seem to be confused about that which died on the day that A&E disobeyed God. Satan's lie was telling only a half truth, which of course is not truth at all. Because A&E did NOT physically die on the day they disobeyed God, they died spiritually. Once they knew of their nakedness before God, they tried to hide their nakedness by sewing fig leaves together to cover themselves. For the first time they had knowledge of both good and evil. God took His Spirit from them, so instead of supernatural eternal spiritual life, and immortal physical life they possessed before the fall, the spirit within became natural, and the body became mortal and corruptible. Without the Spirit of God in man, he cannot know the things of God. That is what died in A&E on the day they disobeyed God and spiritually died.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:11 (KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And because sin entered into God's creation, death came upon all mankind. Now every human is destined to physically die. Because man went from having mortal life in the flesh at creation, to being clothed with physical mortality, and corruption. The human body became destined to grow sick, weak, old and eventually die. That will not change until Christ comes again and resurrects and changes the believers body back to immortality and incorruptible life through His Spirit as we had been created by God.

But Christ has promised "whosoever lives and believes in Me, shall NEVER die." Christ made this promise while speaking to Martha after the death of her brother, Lazarus. Christ knows the human body from the fall is mortal and destined to die. Yet His promise is that believers shall NEVER die. Christ makes this promise to those who live and believe in Him because He knows the one who believes in Him has been born again of His Spirit. And through His Spirit within believers the eternal life we possess is not physical but spiritual supernatural life. Our spirits, indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of Christ NEVER dies, because even though our body dies our spirit lives through His Spirit in us. That's why Christ says that in the resurrection we become as the angels of heaven.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Christ is not speaking of the bodily resurrection after He comes again. If He were He would not say we are as spirit beings, angels in heaven. Because the resurrection after Christ comes again will be when our physical bodies are resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Our bodies won't then be like spirit beings in heaven, they will be as they were created in the beginning when God created man. We also know Christ is not speaking of the physical resurrection of our bodies, because He says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead, but alive. Because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Even though these three men of faith have long ago died, according to Christ they are still alive, but in heaven.

Paul too shows us the fate of believers when our physical body dies. Paul says we become a spiritual body. Just as Christ has said, we become as the angels in heaven. Those who died before Christ are the firstfruits from the dead. They ascended with Christ to heaven after His resurrection. First resurrected is Christ, the firstfruits, and afterward when He comes again the bodily resurrection for believers to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In answer to the question Paul anticipates, he tells us when the physical body of believers dies, it is raised a spiritual body, because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body and the two are not the same. The one is of Adam, a natural body of earth, the other is of the Lord from heaven and are like Christ heavenly. Just as in life man is the image of natural man, so too in heaven believers are the image of Christ in heaven. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the short answer to your reply is that when we are in Christ, physical death will take our mortal body of flesh and blood, but when we die IN Christ, our spirit lives eternally through His Spirit in us. That's why Christ says:

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The only way to be a living soul after the death of our physical body is by our eternal spirit that lives on after death through His Spirit in us.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You seem to be confused about that which died on the day that A&E disobeyed God. Satan's lie was telling only a half truth, which of course is not truth at all. Because A&E did NOT physically die on the day they disobeyed God, they died spiritually. Once they knew of their nakedness before God, they tried to hide their nakedness by sewing fig leaves together to cover themselves. For the first time they had knowledge of both good and evil. God took His Spirit from them, so instead of supernatural eternal spiritual life, and immortal physical life they possessed before the fall, the spirit within became natural, and the body became mortal and corruptible. Without the Spirit of God in man, he cannot know the things of God. That is what died in A&E on the day they disobeyed God and spiritually died.

1 Corinthians 2:11 (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:11 (KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And because sin entered into God's creation, death came upon all mankind. Now every human is destined to physically die. Because man went from having mortal life in the flesh at creation, to being clothed with physical mortality, and corruption. The human body became destined to grow sick, weak, old and eventually die. That will not change until Christ comes again and resurrects and changes the believers body back to immortality and incorruptible life through His Spirit as we had been created by God.

But Christ has promised "whosoever lives and believes in Me, shall NEVER die." Christ made this promise while speaking to Martha after the death of her brother, Lazarus. Christ knows the human body from the fall is mortal and destined to die. Yet His promise is that believers shall NEVER die. Christ makes this promise to those who live and believe in Him because He knows the one who believes in Him has been born again of His Spirit. And through His Spirit within believers the eternal life we possess is not physical but spiritual supernatural life. Our spirits, indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of Christ NEVER dies, because even though our body dies our spirit lives through His Spirit in us. That's why Christ says that in the resurrection we become as the angels of heaven.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Christ is not speaking of the bodily resurrection after He comes again. If He were He would not say we are as spirit beings, angels in heaven. Because the resurrection after Christ comes again will be when our physical bodies are resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Our bodies won't then be like spirit beings in heaven, they will be as they were created in the beginning when God created man. We also know Christ is not speaking of the physical resurrection of our bodies, because He says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead, but alive. Because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Even though these three men of faith have long ago died, according to Christ they are still alive, but in heaven.

Paul too shows us the fate of believers when our physical body dies. Paul says we become a spiritual body. Just as Christ has said, we become as the angels in heaven. Those who died before Christ are the firstfruits from the dead. They ascended with Christ to heaven after His resurrection. First resurrected is Christ, the firstfruits, and afterward when He comes again the bodily resurrection for believers to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

In answer to the question Paul anticipates, he tells us when the physical body of believers dies, it is raised a spiritual body, because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body and the two are not the same. The one is of Adam, a natural body of earth, the other is of the Lord from heaven and are like Christ heavenly. Just as in life man is the image of natural man, so too in heaven believers are the image of Christ in heaven. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the short answer to your reply is that when we are in Christ, physical death will take our mortal body of flesh and blood, but when we die IN Christ, our spirit lives eternally through His Spirit in us. That's why Christ says:

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The only way to be a living soul after the death of our physical body is by our eternal spirit that lives on after death through His Spirit in us.

I agree with you on Adam and Eve, when they sinned, they died spiritually on that very day, and Pauls words was referring to born again Christians, who will become spirit beings and reside in heaven where all are created and cannot procreate, so yes they are as the angels not marrying. They did not go there until the first resurrection occurred of course, they were totally dead, and there is no consciousness in death, nothing lives on. For us who are not born again, we will be resurrected in the flesh, and yes as those anointed ones, nothing lives on at our death either, we will be dead until God resurrects us as well.

You misunderstand Mat 10:28, the soul referred to there is future prospects for life. Unless of course the Bible is in error and contradicts itself, but I seriously doubt that, it is the understanding that is in error sir.

 

[rwb]

I agree with you on Adam and Eve, when they sinned, they died spiritually on that very day, and Pauls words was referring to born again Christians, who will become spirit beings and reside in heaven where all are created and cannot procreate, so yes they are as the angels not marrying. They did not go there until the first resurrection occurred of course, they were totally dead, and there is no consciousness in death, nothing lives on. For us who are not born again, we will be resurrected in the flesh, and yes as those anointed ones, nothing lives on at our death either, we will be dead until God resurrects us as well.

You misunderstand Mat 10:28, the soul referred to there is future prospects for life. Unless of course the Bible is in error and contradicts itself, but I seriously doubt that, it is the understanding that is in error sir.

I agree that in physical death of the unbeliever there is no life. The dead without Christ are in silence and darkness until they are physically resurrected after Christ returns to stand before God at the GWTJ. The dead, not the living, will be judged by the things found written in the books and the book of life. Since the dead will not, without Christ, be found in the book of life they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire.

In Scripture we find references of the physically dead in Christ possessing life after death. How could the necromancer, at the request of King Saul, call up the spirit of Samuel from the grave if his spirit was not still alive in some manner after physical death? Not only was the spirit of Samuel raised from the grave, but he told Saul since the Lord had departed from him, Israel would be delivered into the hands of the Philistines, David would become King, and both Saul and his sons would join him in the grave because they would be killed at the hand of the Philistines.

1 Samuel 28:15-19 (KJV) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

There is also evidence of life after physical death for men of faith at the transfiguration. Christ showed a vision to Peter, James and John of the spirits of both Moses and Elijah as the Lord talked to these long ago dead saints. Why would this vision of the dead in Christ being alive after physical death be given to them if there is no spiritual life after physical death for those who die in Christ? Christ tells us elsewhere, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." In saying this Christ tells us that even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are physically dead, they, through the spirit are still alive.

Matthew 17:2-9 (KJV) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Then we find the obvious life after death of those who die in Christ as spirit (living) souls in heaven in the book of Revelation.

If the first resurrection is the resurrection of the flesh, what does Christ mean when He says in the resurrection we shall be as are the angels in heaven, or spirit beings? If Christ were speaking of the physical resurrection that will come for both the physically dead without Christ, and the physically dead in Christ, why would He say we shall be as spirit beings (angels) in heaven? When believers are bodily resurrected, they will be physical not spiritual beings, changed to immortality and incorruptible. That's why we know when Christ says they shall be as the angels in heaven, He is speaking of the first resurrection which is the spiritual resurrection we partake of in life to overcome the second death.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I agree that in physical death of the unbeliever there is no life. The dead without Christ are in silence and darkness until they are physically resurrected after Christ returns to stand before God at the GWTJ. The dead, not the living, will be judged by the things found written in the books and the book of life. Since the dead will not, without Christ, be found in the book of life they will be cast into the eternal lake of fire.

In Scripture we find references of the physically dead in Christ possessing life after death. How could the necromancer, at the request of King Saul, call up the spirit of Samuel from the grave if his spirit was not still alive in some manner after physical death? Not only was the spirit of Samuel raised from the grave, but he told Saul since the Lord had departed from him, Israel would be delivered into the hands of the Philistines, David would become King, and both Saul and his sons would join him in the grave because they would be killed at the hand of the Philistines.

1 Samuel 28:15-19 (KJV) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

There is also evidence of life after physical death for men of faith at the transfiguration. Christ showed a vision to Peter, James and John of the spirits of both Moses and Elijah as the Lord talked to these long ago dead saints. Why would this vision of the dead in Christ being alive after physical death be given to them if there is no spiritual life after physical death for those who die in Christ? Christ tells us elsewhere, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." In saying this Christ tells us that even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are physically dead, they, through the spirit are still alive.

Matthew 17:2-9 (KJV) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Matthew 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Then we find the obvious life after death of those who die in Christ as spirit (living) souls in heaven in the book of Revelation.

If the first resurrection is the resurrection of the flesh, what does Christ mean when He says in the resurrection we shall be as are the angels in heaven, or spirit beings? If Christ were speaking of the physical resurrection that will come for both the physically dead without Christ, and the physically dead in Christ, why would He say we shall be as spirit beings (angels) in heaven? When believers are bodily resurrected, they will be physical not spiritual beings, changed to immortality and incorruptible. That's why we know when Christ says they shall be as the angels in heaven, He is speaking of the first resurrection which is the spiritual resurrection we partake of in life to overcome the second death.

The devil has no power of life RW, therefore Samuel was not called up, rather it was a demon. Calling up the dead was forbidden by God's laws, therefore Jehovah would not have brought Samuel back to life.

Obviously Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not literally living, but they are in God's memory, and as sure as His existence they will live again, that is what Jesus was referring to. If they were living, then clearly Jesus sacrifice was not needed, because he was not dead yet. It was the sacrifice of his flesh and blood that paid the ransom for what Adam lost for mankind.

 

[rwb]

The devil has no power of life RW, therefore Samuel was not called up, rather it was a demon. Calling up the dead was forbidden by God's laws, therefore Jehovah would not have brought Samuel back to life.

Obviously Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not literally living, but they are in God's memory, and as sure as His existence they will live again, that is what Jesus was referring to. If they were living, then clearly Jesus sacrifice was not needed, because he was not dead yet. It was the sacrifice of his flesh and blood that paid the ransom for what Adam lost for mankind.

Have any proof for your theory of a demon rather than the spirit of Samuel was aroused by the necromancer? This spirit spoke words of truth to King Saul. Samuel was not brought back to life. It was the spirit of Samuel that continued to have life, even though Samuel had physically died. Proof the spirit of Samuel continued to have life after is illustrated by Christ telling of what became of the rich man and Lazarus after they both died. The rich man died, and went into the grave, and is depicted as being in torment. But Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. Before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, all who physically died went either into the grave, or place of the DEAD, or into Abraham's bosom.

After His resurrection, before He ascended to heaven, Christ went down to the lower parts of the earth, which is where those who have physically died in faith were held captive, Abraham's bosom. Once Christ defeated sin and death by His cross and resurrection He set free those held captive to death in the part of the grave for the faithful.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Before Christ came, Satan was able to hold people in bondage to the grave, so he held the Old Covenant faithful captive in the grave until Christ ascended there to set them free.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Again, do you have any proof of your theory that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not spiritually alive in heaven as spirit souls? Christ was speaking of the spiritual resurrection that would come after His cross and resurrection. I agree none could go to heaven before Christ defeated death and went to prepare a spiritual place in heaven for those who physically die being in Christ. Three days before Christ physically resurrected from the grave, He yielded His Spirit to the Father in heaven. Christ's life (spirit) returned alive to heaven from where it came after His body died (gave up the ghost, breathed its last, expired), and went into the grave.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

By His sacrificial blood, Christ paid the ransom for sin. But it was by His resurrection from the grave that He defeated death. The physical death of Christ would be ineffective if He had not risen from the grave.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18 (KJV) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Paul goes on to give us assurance that those who have already physically died in Christ have not perished. Because he tells us when the body of those in Christ dies, it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body. Because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body and the two are not the same. Being risen from the dead Christ became the firstfruits of those who had already died. Believers will not be physically resurrected until our mortal, corruptible body is resurrected and changed at His coming. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in heaven, because heaven is the place for heavenly, spirit beings, not physical beings. When we receive immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh and blood like we were at creation, then with our eternal spirit that returns back from heaven with Christ, believers will be fit to live on the new earth forever with Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[bbyrd009]

Eternal Life is Now not Later

word

 

[bbyrd009]

Wow Robert, show me the people that are living eternally, I want to go there sir. Can you tell me who is the oldest among them? Is there any who date back to when Jesus was on earth, would love to hear their stories sir.

ha pls tell me who is the youngest among them, when you become like a little child, maybe

so, dunno if this will serve you right now, but you might sit down with a little child, one not yet gone through “terrible twos,” and try and have a little convo with them about death. Might be illuminating

 

[rwb]

Okay so you're saying your physical body isn't going to die?

The physical body is destined to die from the fall. It's not the body that does not die. When we are IN CHRIST, it's our spirit through the life-giving spirit within that gives us eternal spirit life. Even after our body dies, the Spirit of Christ in us, will continue to give us spiritual life and will be with forever.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

[Robert Gwin]

Have any proof for your theory of a demon rather than the spirit of Samuel was aroused by the necromancer? This spirit spoke words of truth to King Saul. Samuel was not brought back to life. It was the spirit of Samuel that continued to have life, even though Samuel had physically died. Proof the spirit of Samuel continued to have life after is illustrated by Christ telling of what became of the rich man and Lazarus after they both died. The rich man died, and went into the grave, and is depicted as being in torment. But Lazarus was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. Before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, all who physically died went either into the grave, or place of the DEAD, or into Abraham's bosom.

After His resurrection, before He ascended to heaven, Christ went down to the lower parts of the earth, which is where those who have physically died in faith were held captive, Abraham's bosom. Once Christ defeated sin and death by His cross and resurrection He set free those held captive to death in the part of the grave for the faithful.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Before Christ came, Satan was able to hold people in bondage to the grave, so he held the Old Covenant faithful captive in the grave until Christ ascended there to set them free.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Again, do you have any proof of your theory that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not spiritually alive in heaven as spirit souls? Christ was speaking of the spiritual resurrection that would come after His cross and resurrection. I agree none could go to heaven before Christ defeated death and went to prepare a spiritual place in heaven for those who physically die being in Christ. Three days before Christ physically resurrected from the grave, He yielded His Spirit to the Father in heaven. Christ's life (spirit) returned alive to heaven from where it came after His body died (gave up the ghost, breathed its last, expired), and went into the grave.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

By His sacrificial blood, Christ paid the ransom for sin. But it was by His resurrection from the grave that He defeated death. The physical death of Christ would be ineffective if He had not risen from the grave.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18 (KJV) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Paul goes on to give us assurance that those who have already physically died in Christ have not perished. Because he tells us when the body of those in Christ dies, it is sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body. Because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body and the two are not the same. Being risen from the dead Christ became the firstfruits of those who had already died. Believers will not be physically resurrected until our mortal, corruptible body is resurrected and changed at His coming. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in heaven, because heaven is the place for heavenly, spirit beings, not physical beings. When we receive immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh and blood like we were at creation, then with our eternal spirit that returns back from heaven with Christ, believers will be fit to live on the new earth forever with Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The Bible states the dead know nothing Ecc 9:5. Communicating with the dead falls under the heading of spiritism, and God would have no dealings with it.
(Deuteronomy 18:9-11) . . .“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead.
In fact the reason Saul went to the medium is because Jehovah refused to answer him, so He obviously would not have answered him through Samuel who was deceased. 1 Sam 8:6. Chap 15:35 says Jehovah had regrets for even making him king.

The demons have exceptional knowledge and many times gave accurate information:
(Acts 16:16) . . .Now it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She supplied her masters with much profit by fortune-telling.

Can I prove it was not Samuel, no I can not, any more than you can prove it was him. Nothing lives on after death, and the demons have no power to resurrect the mind of anyone dead, but they do have knowledge, and are infinitely superior to humans and can easily deceive someone into believing things. There will be many who will agree with you, and many who won't. As of now it is just opinion each of our beliefs. My belief is by the evidence I supplied is that it was not Samuel, rather a demon that communicated with Saul.

 

[Robert Gwin]

ha pls tell me who is the youngest among them, when you become like a little child, maybe

so, dunno if this will serve you right now, but you might sit down with a little child, one not yet gone through “terrible twos,” and try and have a little convo with them about death. Might be illuminating

I am afraid to Byrdie, have you ever seen the show are you smarter than a 5th grader, I might get put to shame sir.

 

[rwb]

The Bible states the dead know nothing Ecc 9:5. Communicating with the dead falls under the heading of spiritism, and God would have no dealings with it.
(Deuteronomy 18:9-11) . . .“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead.
In fact the reason Saul went to the medium is because Jehovah refused to answer him, so He obviously would not have answered him through Samuel who was deceased. 1 Sam 8:6. Chap 15:35 says Jehovah had regrets for even making him king.

Of course the DEAD know nothing after their body breathes its last! How could the DEAD have any life whatsoever after physical death since they died in unbelief? That means they did not have the power of the Holy Spirit in them keeping their spirit alive. But the DEAD IN CHRIST are not without spiritual life after the death of our body. Because we have the promise of Christ that whoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! When we physically die being IN CHRIST, the Spirit within continues to give life. If this were not true, Christ would not have said the life we have IN HIM is eternal.

Since the spirit returns to God who gave it, will man's spirit return to God with the life-giving Spirit who keeps spiritually alive eternally, OR will the spirit in man return to God who gave it without life, to remain in darkness and silence until called physically from the grave to be judged?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We have eternal, never ending spiritual life who abides with us forever. Without the Spirit in us, we will be among the DEAD after our body dies. Because it is the Spirit that makes us alive in Christ, and the flesh profits nothing.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, God most certainly did forbid the practice of sorcery, necromancy and all other forms of occult. And Saul defied God by seeking out the dark arts so he could speak to Samuel's spirit. If it were not possible through occultist practices to bring up the spirit of the dead, why would God forbid this practice through sorcery? Saul sought out the necromancer because God's prophet, Samuel was dead. It was through the prophets, not the dark magic practiced by the foreign nations Israel was forbidden to imitate, that God spoke to His people.

The demons have exceptional knowledge and many times gave accurate information:
(Acts 16:16) . . .Now it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She supplied her masters with much profit by fortune-telling.

You're making my argument for me. The demon possessed have the ability to foretell what may come to pass. God gave Israel his word and statutes, as a rule to go by, which he has not given to other nations, "the priests shall ask by Urim and Thummim", and a true prophet shall the Lord your God give unto you; 'so that they had no need to hearken to demonic spiritualists'. The prophets whom the Lord would give unto them would not be like the diviners of the Heathens, who imposed on the people and deceived them, but would be men sent and inspired by God, and true and faithful in the discharge of their office, and to hearken to these they are encouraged by the promise of a very eminent one, like to Moses.

Can I prove it was not Samuel, no I can not, any more than you can prove it was him. Nothing lives on after death, and the demons have no power to resurrect the mind of anyone dead, but they do have knowledge, and are infinitely superior to humans and can easily deceive someone into believing things. There will be many who will agree with you, and many who won't. As of now it is just opinion each of our beliefs. My belief is by the evidence I supplied is that it was not Samuel, rather a demon that communicated with Saul.

I never said Samuel was raised from the dead. I said his spirit was. The woman described to Saul the appearance of the man she brought up when she saw Samuel. Then Saul understood she had indeed brought up the spirit of God's prophet, Samuel. I simply rely on what is written in the Word, which says that Samuel, through his spirit spoke to Saul.

1 Samuel 28:12-15 (KJV) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

No human lives on after death apart from the life-giving Spirit of Christ in them! It wasn't necessary for the occultists to resurrect the spirit of Old Covenant faithful dead. Because they died believing the prophets who told them a Messiah would come to redeem them from sin, and rescue them from the grave, so their spirit never died. Therefore, before Christ came the Old Covenant faithful saints went to the Abraham's bosom to wait for Christ to come and rescue them.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am afraid to Byrdie, have you ever seen the show are you smarter than a 5th grader, I might get put to shame sir.

right? lol

 

[Robert Gwin]

Of course the DEAD know nothing after their body breathes its last! How could the DEAD have any life whatsoever after physical death since they died in unbelief? That means they did not have the power of the Holy Spirit in them keeping their spirit alive. But the DEAD IN CHRIST are not without spiritual life after the death of our body. Because we have the promise of Christ that whoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! When we physically die being IN CHRIST, the Spirit within continues to give life. If this were not true, Christ would not have said the life we have IN HIM is eternal.

Since the spirit returns to God who gave it, will man's spirit return to God with the life-giving Spirit who keeps spiritually alive eternally, OR will the spirit in man return to God who gave it without life, to remain in darkness and silence until called physically from the grave to be judged?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We have eternal, never ending spiritual life who abides with us forever. Without the Spirit in us, we will be among the DEAD after our body dies. Because it is the Spirit that makes us alive in Christ, and the flesh profits nothing.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, God most certainly did forbid the practice of sorcery, necromancy and all other forms of occult. And Saul defied God by seeking out the dark arts so he could speak to Samuel's spirit. If it were not possible through occultist practices to bring up the spirit of the dead, why would God forbid this practice through sorcery? Saul sought out the necromancer because God's prophet, Samuel was dead. It was through the prophets, not the dark magic practiced by the foreign nations Israel was forbidden to imitate, that God spoke to His people.



You're making my argument for me. The demon possessed have the ability to foretell what may come to pass. God gave Israel his word and statutes, as a rule to go by, which he has not given to other nations, "the priests shall ask by Urim and Thummim", and a true prophet shall the Lord your God give unto you; 'so that they had no need to hearken to demonic spiritualists'. The prophets whom the Lord would give unto them would not be like the diviners of the Heathens, who imposed on the people and deceived them, but would be men sent and inspired by God, and true and faithful in the discharge of their office, and to hearken to these they are encouraged by the promise of a very eminent one, like to Moses.



I never said Samuel was raised from the dead. I said his spirit was. The woman described to Saul the appearance of the man she brought up when she saw Samuel. Then Saul understood she had indeed brought up the spirit of God's prophet, Samuel. I simply rely on what is written in the Word, which says that Samuel, through his spirit spoke to Saul.

1 Samuel 28:12-15 (KJV) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

No human lives on after death apart from the life-giving Spirit of Christ in them! It wasn't necessary for the occultists to resurrect the spirit of Old Covenant faithful dead. Because they died believing the prophets who told them a Messiah would come to redeem them from sin, and rescue them from the grave, so their spirit never died. Therefore, before Christ came the Old Covenant faithful saints went to the Abraham's bosom to wait for Christ to come and rescue them.

You said: You're making my argument for me. The demon possessed have the ability to foretell what may come to pass. I am glad we agree on this point RW

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Note the grammatical tenses in the passage below.

• John 6:54 . . Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

In other words; when folks correctly dine upon Jesus' flesh and correctly
imbibe his blood, they have eternal life right then-- no delay and no waiting
period.

FYI: The life in Jesus' flesh and blood is eternal life; which means that folks
shouldn't have to eat and drink it more than once because eternal life
doesn't age, or weaken, or wear out, or die. It's immune to all that, viz:
eternal life is imperishable. (John 10:28)
_

 

[mailmandan]

John 6:40- Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" because the end result is the same, eternal life.

Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him unto salvation. Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.