Armageddon isn’t a battle against the Lamb it is against Babylon the great in chapter 16 and 17
If the second coming happens before the thousand years?
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We are in Rev 20 since the first resurrection of Christ. There is only one resurrection day and one judgment day. Nowhere teaches multiple of these.
It never happened literally is a sign of being cursed and judged People are supposed to eat animals not the other way around.
Revelation isn’t a literal battle its a symbolic image of Jesus defeating all of His enemies over time with the sword of His mouth which is His word and is all powerful and all that He needs. The clue to this is that it’s not even a battle the only weapon mentioned is the sword of Jesus mouth which isn’t even a literal weapon and there is no other people fighting only Jesus
The proof that it’s not a literal weapon or a literal coming is the verse below
Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
If they didn’t repent would Jesus of literally of came back and literally of killed them with a literal sword out of His mouth?
Actually scripture says that satan is bound by deceiving the nations not from battles
The difference is what we think that the bible is. The key is the great chain which is the power of the gospel which prevents satan from deceiving whoever chooses to believe it
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Would a literal 144,000 seem a little suspect when the number of people saved is a number nobody can count.? Especially when the 144,000 belong to Israel, who some believe that all of them will be saved. Very suspect this literal approach, isn't it.... when they actually number the sand of the seashore.?
There is nothing literal about these time frames or numbers.
The deluding influence comes upon the rebellious just prior to his glorious return not after it as well. They are judged at his second appearing.
2thess 2
9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing,
because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].
11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.
Surely this is game over for the wicked as chapter 1 of this letter makes clear.
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I would say...
1. Caught up with Christ- In a time we think not
2. Return with Christ- To reign a thousand years
3. Second death now has no power - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6
1. Caught up with Christ- In a time we think not
2. Return with Christ- To reign a thousand years
3. Second death now has no power - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6
Timtofly
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You said it was an attack on Jerusalem in 70AD. Scripture states they attack the Lamb, and the Lamb destroys them.
Randy Kluth
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Yes, that's what I meant. If 1000 years symbolically represents the NT Church Age, then it represents 2000+ years. Sounds odd to me? I can see people coming up with that before the 1st thousand years of NT history, because perhaps they thought there would be a literal thousand years of NT history until the 2nd Coming?
So perhaps they thought that the 1st resurrection was symbolic of Christ's resurrection, and the reign of the martyrs was symbolic of Christ's reign over Satan, with the binding of Satan symbolic of Christ's defeat of Satan at the cross? They might think this while there may even be a literal thousand years of NT history.
But now that we've long surpassed a thousand years, it seems odd to see 1000 years as symbolic of 2000+ years of NT history. I understand that this is part of the Amillennial system of interpretation. But on behalf of fellow Premillennialists, I have to admit that this is the strangest sort of symbolic interpretation I've seen!
The whole idea that 1000 years is used as a "saying" and then applied as a system of interpretation is well beyond the pale from my perspective. "A thousand years is as a day" is purely a saying, and not the use of a word, ie a "thousand," that argues for the symbolic interpretation of that word.
Can you image using any word as a simile and then inventing a theology arguing for the use of the same word as a system of interpretation? Can I say "I'm as tired as a dog," and then argue that anywhere I read "dog" it must mean "dog" is used symbolically? Absurd!
In another example, if I used "a thousand times no" as an exaggeration, it is the use of an otherwise literal word as a literary device. This does not automatically mean that when you see the word "thousand" used literally, it is to by default fall back on its interpretation as a literary device, or an exaggeration.
Not even in a book that uses a lot of symbolism and that even uses the exaggerated use of that word can we justify interpreting the word symbolically unless the context demands it. The context must be clarified, by the author, to be an exaggeration, if it is to be understood as such by the reader.
We don't find this in Rev 20. It has to be assumed that "thousand" is an expression of symbolism where there is no reason to assume it is being used, in fact, as a literary device. The argument that the book of Revelation is "filled with symbolism" in no way means everything in the book of Revelation should be interpreted as such. Each passage must be interpreted in the light of its own context.
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Timtofly
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No where does Scripture state Revelation 20 is the first century events.
That is your imagined opinion.
The thread starter is asking what happens after Armageddon. If you don't think all humans die at Armageddon, then you must agree with him, Armageddon happened in 70AD.
He claims the dragon, the FP, and the beast sacked Jerusalem in 70AD, and that was Armageddon. Except no humans were left alive according to your multiple re-caps. You seem to agree that 70AD was the end of time, along with the thread starter.
One and a thousand are also brought together in a metaphorical sense in Psalm 84:9-10 to represent a similar illustrative thought as that of Deuteronomy 32:30. Using a comparable idea, although applying it to a specific measure of time, we learn, “Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.”
Comparing ‘one’ to ‘a thousand’ is common in Scripture; however, it is not simply a concept that is narrowly restricted to the subject of time, or exact time at that. This figurative statement in essence asserts that a day in the Lord’s presence is more blessed than untold ordinary ones outside of such. It in no way indicates that one (twenty-four hour) day in God’s presence exactly represents one thousand days elsewhere, such a limit would be an unfair restriction upon the meaning intended. Such a literal interpretation is at clear variance with the undoubted general usage of the phrase in Scripture and the specific import of the reading under analysis.
The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 to denote the greatness of God’s providence, saying, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”
Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Of course there is no way that this passage suggests that Christ only owns the cattle on one thousand hills. Rather, He owns every beast on every hill, thus revealing His omnipotence. The statement reference the “thousand hills” is preceded y the introductory comment: “For every beast of the forest is mine.” This is simply presented in such a way as to express the unfathomable authority and power of the living God. It beautifully correlates with the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:28, which states, “the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.”
The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.
Even the figurative every-day statement ‘one in a thousand’ has emanated from the fountainhead of Scripture. It is found in Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 where Solomon laments, “one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
Solomon laments over the fact that he barely found any upright man in his travels. They were the exception rather than the rule. The thought here intended is that the man under consideration is of a particular choice character, being, as it where, the pick-of-the-bunch. The usage of the numbers one and a thousand is thus employed to represent a particular truth rather than specifically describing an accurate numerical equation.
In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, “If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.” The same two common numbers are used here in the form of a contrast to simply portray the picture of a special vessel. Again, it is not the numbers that are important but the idea they represent.
Comparing ‘one’ to ‘a thousand’ is common in Scripture; however, it is not simply a concept that is narrowly restricted to the subject of time, or exact time at that. This figurative statement in essence asserts that a day in the Lord’s presence is more blessed than untold ordinary ones outside of such. It in no way indicates that one (twenty-four hour) day in God’s presence exactly represents one thousand days elsewhere, such a limit would be an unfair restriction upon the meaning intended. Such a literal interpretation is at clear variance with the undoubted general usage of the phrase in Scripture and the specific import of the reading under analysis.
The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 to denote the greatness of God’s providence, saying, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”
Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Of course there is no way that this passage suggests that Christ only owns the cattle on one thousand hills. Rather, He owns every beast on every hill, thus revealing His omnipotence. The statement reference the “thousand hills” is preceded y the introductory comment: “For every beast of the forest is mine.” This is simply presented in such a way as to express the unfathomable authority and power of the living God. It beautifully correlates with the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:28, which states, “the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.”
The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.
Even the figurative every-day statement ‘one in a thousand’ has emanated from the fountainhead of Scripture. It is found in Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 where Solomon laments, “one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
Solomon laments over the fact that he barely found any upright man in his travels. They were the exception rather than the rule. The thought here intended is that the man under consideration is of a particular choice character, being, as it where, the pick-of-the-bunch. The usage of the numbers one and a thousand is thus employed to represent a particular truth rather than specifically describing an accurate numerical equation.
In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, “If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.” The same two common numbers are used here in the form of a contrast to simply portray the picture of a special vessel. Again, it is not the numbers that are important but the idea they represent.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The use of symbolism in one case, such as describing the human tongue as a "sword," does not mean the entire vision is symbolic. It can certainly be so, but it is not proven in this way, as if a single use of symbolism makes everything symbolic. Metaphors and similes are used all the time in very literal stories.
The word "thousand" can be used as a literary device expressing it in ways that are determined by the context in which the word is used. If "thousand" is used in the exaggerated sense, such as "a thousand times no," its use would argue that "thousand" is being used as an exaggeration. Or, if "thousand" is used in the abbreviated sense, such as "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills," again, context demands the use of a "thousand" as a literary device, and not in the literal sense.
It is the context that determines whether the use of the word "thousand" should be used as a literary device or not. There are books filled with apocalyptic symbolism, but the use of numbers tend to refer to the actual values that those numbers represent, unless the context makes it clear those numbers are being used as a literary device.
Even the symbolic "10 horns and 7 heads of the Beast" is symbolic, and yet contains numbers with actual values. Despite these numbers being accompanied by symbolism and metaphors, the number "10" still means "10," and the number "7" still means "7." "10" does not mean "20," and for the same reason "1000" would not mean "2000+ years."
So I would argue that lacking a context that *demands* a symbolic application, the thousand years of Christian rule must have an actual application of a thousand years. It cannot be interpreted as a literary device without a context that demands its use as such. This would confuse the reader.
Nor would, for the same reason, Satan's binding be interpreted symbolically as the defeat of Satan at the cross. Satan's binding would be quite literally taking place at the start of the Millennium, when Christ comes back.
And the reign of those martyred by Antichrist would literally be reigning in the new era of peace, after Christ comes back. To interpret this reign as the present reign of the Church spiritually, even though Christians are still being oppressed by Satan and suffering martyrdom, is therefore a wrong use of words.
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Nancy
Well-Known Member
This was his answer, you might not agree with it but, he did answer you.
Charlie24 said:
"One third of Israel will be left according to Zechariah, plus no doubt millions of Gentiles from the nations.
The first order of business for Christ at His return is separating the nations that supported Israel and those who did not.
There will be millions on earth at this time, who were not killed during the GT."
ewq1938
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No, it's a battle against God the Lamb. Babylon isn't even mentioned.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
ewq1938
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It is not the church age because the church age never ends plus the church existed before the cross.
The thousand years is exactly what it says it is, 1000 years of Christ ruling along with his resurrected saints.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Explain why the minute Satan is loosed, many seemed deceived, and march for battle.
You have yet to explain why Armageddon allegedly happened 40 years after a 1,000 year binding started. Some Amil claim Armageddon was even the end of time.
You missed verse 19 of chapter 16
19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
I also never said that Babylon is a part of chapter 19 because she isn’t
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Timtofly
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ewq1938
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No, I didn't "miss" it.
That's a separate event like the other vials. In the 6th vial, armies go to Armageddon to wait for God the Lamb to arrive. That battle is found in Rev 19.
Babylon being punished by God is not part of the battle of Armageddon.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Of course Babylon is not. Cities don't move across the earth for battle. That is not what the 6th vial is for. You keep bringing up the 7th vial.
You asked about the 6th vial. The battle in the 6th vial is further described in Revelation 19.
The 7th vial is not the battle of Armageddon.
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