If the second coming happens before the thousand years?

[ScottA]

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 starts the 7th of 7 parallels.

No, but you do not understand. Certainly "there are no survivors" as you say, but it is the timing that you do not have correct. The passage sets the time at the time of Christ, which is at the cross and the victory of Christ. Meaning those "left behind" (the "rest" or "remnant") are those who come after the cross; that is, after Him who "did not come to bring peace but a sword"--as it is written, that "sword proceeded out of his mouth."

I did not "localize" but said "all" just as it is written. So, yes, all flesh is destroyed.

Indeed, it is "watertight", but you have the timing wrong. I am not pre or post anything, but rather do know that all these things were and are fulfilled in Christ, in His time.

But do not be against those who "spiritualize", for this is what it means to be born [again] of the spirit of God, that no longer living in the flesh we are make new in the spirit just as God is spirit and perfect, so also we too become "like Him."

 

[ScottA]

It never happened literally is a sign of being cursed and judged People are supposed to eat animals not the other way around.

Revelation isn’t a literal battle its a symbolic image of Jesus defeating all of His enemies over time with the sword of His mouth which is His word and is all powerful and all that He needs. The clue to this is that it’s not even a battle the only weapon mentioned is the sword of Jesus mouth which isn’t even a literal weapon and there is no other people fighting only Jesus

The proof that it’s not a literal weapon or a literal coming is the verse below

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

If they didn’t repent would Jesus of literally of came back and literally of killed them with a literal sword out of His mouth?

I am not sure what you meant by that first sentence, or what your point is. I was simply making the point that if "birds of the air eating flesh" is a sign--it is not only future, but began at the beginning shortly after creation.

 

[Jay Ross]

The lack of refutation of the content of my post gives strong evidence that I am.

You may like to believe so. But the scriptures you quoted were all out of context and as such, not on the money in any way shape or form.

As for a lack of refutation, I said that you were not on the money, and your post, because of the lack of your rebuttal to show that your understanding is right, gives strong evidence that I was right in my assessment of your post. I just said it in as few words as possible.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, I didn't say that. I completely dismissed the idea of a 2300-year prophecy in Dan 8! I think that was fulfilled in the time of Antiochus 4 in the 2nd century BC.

Since you dispute the idea of a 2,300-years prophecy Daniel 8 you are adopting the arguments of the preterists. I did not say you were a preterist, What I said was that Satan has confused the truth of the matter with respect to the duration of the time of the gentiles

I agree with them that the bulk of the Olivet Discourse had to do with the Roman desolation of Jerusalem and the temple, as foretold in Dan 9.26.

The Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans a period of some 2,000-years until the war in heaven between God and His Holy Angels and Satan and his fallen angels reaches the point where Satan and his fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. wicked fallen angels, no longer have a place in heaven and are dislodged down to the face of the earth where they are immediately locked up in the Bottomless pit for a 1,00-years to await their time of punishment. This event is described in Isaiah 24:21-22 where the heavenly hosts are judged in heaven and the kings of the earth are judged on the earth. This judgement for the kings of the earth happens at a place called Armageddon as described in Rev 16:12-16.

The Roman destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Israelites to the four corners of the earth is a fulfilment of 2 Chron 7:19-22, and the Dan 8 prophecy is the means by which the 2 Chron 7:19-22 prophecy was fulfilled.

I agree that national Israel will be politically saved as a nation and spiritually revived as a people, which will assure their determination to "never be destroyed again." The "times of the Gentiles" refers to the time when Israel is under punishment as a nation, which corresponds to the entire NT age.

No, I disagree with your claim that Israel will be saved politically. As foretold in Ezekiel and Isaiah, when God gathers the Israelites to Himself, he will plant them in the fertile field of Christ and teach them on the religion of Christ where they are living scattered throughout all of the earth to fulfil the prophetic destiny as given in the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The time of the Gentiles began around 250 BC and will end at the end of this present age.

As for Christ's permanent return to the face of the earth at the end of this present age, that is very questionable and is more a theory put forward by men which is not biblically justifiable.

Jesus had just described the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans and the succeeding period of exile from the land that Israel would experience. This is described by Jesus as a national "punishment." The punishment ends when the "times of the Gentiles" are finished, which refers to the time when pagan Gentiles participate in God's punishment of the Jewish People.

But the armies give to the Little Horn to trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts have included the Greek Empire, the Roman empire and many nations all over the world. Germany in WWII is one such national army that the Little Horn has used in recent times. Also, the Otterman Empire and various Islamic nations have also taken part. Every nation in Europe and the Americas, including the USA have been a pawn for the Little Horn to use in the trampling of God's earthly hosts.

After the Bottomless pit is opened, we have Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, initially going after Israel and then the Christian Saints, during the little while period at the end of the Seventh Age. The Gog Magod armies are described in Rev 19 and 20 as well as in Ezekiel 38-39 and in Ez 39 and Rev 19 we are told that the birds of the air will feast on the flesh of their armies.

It is after this that we will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with the heavenly hosts to judge the peoples of the earth.

It seems to me that you need to do a lot more work on understanding God's timeline for the End Times.

 

[ewq1938]

You may like to believe so.

You continue to avoid the content of the post, indicating you are unable to refute anything posted. Your personal attacks further strengthen this fact.

 

[Jay Ross]

You continue to avoid the content of the post, indicating you are unable to refute anything posted. Your personal attacks further strengthen this fact.

Since there have not been any personally attacks against your personhood, your argument is false as well in this post.

This is what I posted above: -

You may like to believe so. But the scriptures you quoted were all out of context and as such, not on the money in any way shape or form.

As for a lack of refutation, I said that you were not on the money, and your post, because of the lack of your rebuttal to show that your understanding is right, gives strong evidence that I was right in my assessment of your post. I just said it in as few words as possible.

What you quoted from my post, I have bolded, to highlight that I did offer a rebuttal to your post.

Have a good day now.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If this was before the thousand years then who would be around for it if the flesh of all people were eaten by the birds?

This is simply prose, Jesus slays them by the presence of his coming as he speaks victory like he spoke creation into existence. Armageddon is the Marriage Supper, the wedding is in Heaven during the 70th week, hence a pre trib rapture. Thus we return to earth with Jesus at the Second Coming or 2nd Advent, he came as a meek lamb, and will come soon as a conquering lion. At a Marriage Supper you have a feast, well we the Church (birds/fowls in the air) will feast on those who Martyred us, who enjoyed placing tasks on us from Satan, or troubling us during the Church Age (John 16:33 all times on earth are tribulation). So, we do not actually eat or feast on them, its simple prose, we rule over them with Jesus, we win, they lose. We feast on the wicked is used as a metaphor. Do not take it literal.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No revelation 19 isn’t Armageddon as Armageddon is in revelation 16.

Revelation 16 is the defeat of Babylon the great by the beast revelation 19 is the defeat of the beast by Jesus.

Armageddon was the time of the weeping as Jesus came in judgment and destroyed Jerusalem (Babylon the great) in 70AD as Jesus used the beast Rome to defeat her.

He is right, Rev. 11 (where the 7th Trump is blown) Rev. 14:17-20 where the wicked are placed into God's Wine-press. Rev. 16:19 where Babylon the Great (all the Kings of WHOLE WORLD who comes against God as shown in the 6th Vial) is placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath. And Rev. 19, Armageddon, are ALL FOUR the exact same event. One must learn the Parenthetical Citation chapters in order to ever understand the book of Revelation in full.

 

[Timtofly]

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

For Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not creation. For He must reign until all things are subjected.

 

[Timtofly]

Because a lot of the church conforms

I already explained that, Armageddon has nothing to do with the thousand years

Of course Armageddon is not connected to the 1000 years. It is the winepress of God's wrath after Satan's 42 months of AoD.

The church conforming has nothing to do with humans marching across the earth to make a battle.

Do you attribute every single war in history to the church not conforming?

Scripture states Satan is good at deception, starting with Eve, the mother of sin.

 

[Marty fox]

Of course Armageddon is not connected to the 1000 years. It is the winepress of God's wrath after Satan's 42 months of AoD.

The church conforming has nothing to do with humans marching across the earth to make a battle.

Do you attribute every single war in history to the church not conforming?

Scripture states Satan is good at deception, starting with Eve, the mother of sin.

The army in revelation 20 is the conformed world which surround the dwindling church the camp of Gods people the city He loves

 

[Timtofly]

The army in revelation 20 is the conformed world which surround the dwindling church the camp of Gods people the city He loves

No. This army is righteous people deceived by Satan, just released from the pit.

This is not local churches being surrounded by an angry mob. This is people from the outer edges of the map, who all march to the center, ie Jerusalem. There is not even a war or a battle. As they get close to Jerusalem, they are all consumed by fire, without even getting a chance to declare why they even came all that way.

There is no dwindling at all. If someone disobeyed the Law, they were immediately put to death. There is no sin, no sin nature. No one ever died at all. That is why they filled the earth with houses. It was the youngest who were deceived. The last generations were also the largest population groups. The people living the longest lived in the center, the camp of the original saints. The further away from the ME, the younger people were, and the younger they were the more population needing more space. We have no clue what made these people march across the earth, other than Satan deceived them into thinking they needed to make a statement at the "Capitol".

There is nothing that would even come to mind in today's economy, why all the Christians would suddenly only be found living near Jerusalem, and the ungodly had taken over the rest of the world. Christians are homogeneous all over the earth. Some cannot even be that different from all their neighbors around them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Since you dispute the idea of a 2,300-years prophecy Daniel 8 you are adopting the arguments of the preterists. I did not say you were a preterist, What I said was that Satan has confused the truth of the matter with respect to the duration of the time of the gentiles

Not true at all! Many people feel that the 2300 day prophecy of Dan 8 was fulfilled in the life of Antiochus 4. Preterism does not own that position, nor did the position originate with Preterism, which began many, many years after the position emerged that I hold to. By contrast, I think your view is more novel and recent in history?

The Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans a period of some 2,000-years until the war in heaven between God and His Holy Angels and Satan and his fallen angels reaches the point where Satan and his fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. wicked fallen angels, no longer have a place in heaven and are dislodged down to the face of the earth where they are immediately locked up in the Bottomless pit for a 1,00-years to await their time of punishment.

Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

I interpret this as follows. 69 years will lead to Jesus, the Anointed One, who is put to death, not immediately inheriting his Kingdom. The Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the temple in the same generation in which Jesus dies.

None of this requires 2,000 years. It is fulfilled in the generation of Jesus. This is an historical fulfillment--not Preterism. The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD led to an age-long period of Jewish Punishment, during which time Christ reaches out to the nations of the world with the Gospel. I don't know if you agree with this or not?

No, I disagree with your claim that Israel will be saved politically. As foretold in Ezekiel and Isaiah, when God gathers the Israelites to Himself, he will plant them in the fertile field of Christ and teach them on the religion of Christ where they are living scattered throughout all of the earth to fulfil the prophetic destiny as given in the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So you believe the Jews will be saved without a nation or state?

The time of the Gentiles began around 250 BC and will end at the end of this present age.

I don't know that we were given a beginning date for the "times of the Gentiles?" It just seems that Jesus uses that sense in light of Israel's fall, and vulnerability to Gentile oppression during the time of their punishment.

As for Christ's permanent return to the face of the earth at the end of this present age, that is very questionable and is more a theory put forward by men which is not biblically justifiable.

I don't theorize and then claim some theories are "of men" while my theories are "of God." They are just "theories!"

But the armies give to the Little Horn to trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts have included the Greek Empire, the Roman empire and many nations all over the world. Germany in WWII is one such national army that the Little Horn has used in recent times.

My view is that the "Little Horn" of Dan 7 is the Antichrist who arises at the end of the age. He can't, therefore, have anything to do with the Greeks, Romans, and Germany in the past.

Also, the Otterman Empire and various Islamic nations have also taken part. Every nation in Europe and the Americas, including the USA have been a pawn for the Little Horn to use in the trampling of God's earthly hosts.

Same as above. The Antichrist will rule, I think, over 10 nations in Europe. His rule doesn't extend to past kingdoms.

After the Bottomless pit is opened, we have Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet, initially going after Israel and then the Christian Saints, during the little while period at the end of the Seventh Age. The Gog Magod armies are described in Rev 19 and 20 as well as in Ezekiel 38-39 and in Ez 39 and Rev 19 we are told that the birds of the air will feast on the flesh of their armies.

It is after this that we will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with the heavenly hosts to judge the peoples of the earth.

It seems to me that you need to do a lot more work on understanding God's timeline for the End Times.

I don't know why *you people* always seem to think those who disagree with you need "more work?" You have no idea how much work I've done--may have been much more than your work?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe Mystery Babylon is America, regarding future prophecy today's Rome is irrelevant. There are several scriptures in Rev. 17 & 18 that only America fits the bill, so far.

We'll have to disagree on this. I can find multiple reasons to identify "Mystery Babylon" as a cryptic reference to Rome. None of it fits America, in my view, although I've seen a number of Christian authors believe that. The US certainly is developing into an Antichristian nation, which I seriously hope turns around!! We've inherited European ways, and European Civilization has gone to seed--back to ancient paganism.

 

[WPM]

No, but you do not understand. Certainly "there are no survivors" as you say, but it is the timing that you do not have correct. The passage sets the time at the time of Christ, which is at the cross and the victory of Christ. Meaning those "left behind" (the "rest" or "remnant") are those who come after the cross; that is, after Him who "did not come to bring peace but a sword"--as it is written, that "sword proceeded out of his mouth."

I did not "localize" but said "all" just as it is written. So, yes, all flesh is destroyed.

Indeed, it is "watertight", but you have the timing wrong. I am not pre or post anything, but rather do know that all these things were and are fulfilled in Christ, in His time.

But do not be against those who "spiritualize", for this is what it means to be born [again] of the spirit of God, that no longer living in the flesh we are make new in the spirit just as God is spirit and perfect, so also we too become "like Him."

Are you a Full Preterist?

 

[ScottA]

Are you a Full Preterist?

No, what I have been telling you does not even fit the definition of Preterism beliefs. I have been referring to matters of the kingdom and of God, as without time, and only matters of men and this world as dated, or as Paul said it, "but each one in his own order."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If this was before the thousand years then who would be around for it if the flesh of all people were eaten by the birds?

Vultures eat the dead, not the living.

 

[ewq1938]

Vultures eat the dead, not the living.

He doesn't believe there are any living mortals.

 

[Marty fox]

Vultures eat the dead, not the living.

Yes of course but it says that they eat the flesh of all people so who could be around for the thousand years?

 

[Randy Kluth]

He doesn't believe there are any living mortals.

As I said before, if vultures are eating even dead carcasses, this is evidence that the temporal world continues, as is, after Jesus' Return. Not only do birds do a "clean up" job after the Battle of Armageddon, but there is evidence that people in Israel have to work at cleansing the land.

Eze 39.1 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of[a] Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals.

...11 “‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.
12 “‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.