Rules of interpretation for Premill

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WPM

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From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

It is my estimations that we are at the end of the Laodicean church age along with the restoration of Israel. I do not believe we are that far away for things to wrap up... Uh-oh... Timing... And to say that these dates are just estimations...

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

The main rule for premillennials is that Christ comes as a thief and it is his will for we to live our lives as though he could come today.

Where does the NT teach "the Laodicean church age"?
Where does the NT teach "the restoration of Israel" to their old theocratic state?
 

rockytopva

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Where does the NT teach "the Laodicean church age"?
Where does the NT teach "the restoration of Israel" to their old theocratic state?
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. - Acts 1
 

WPM

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6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. - Acts 1

Ok, so you did not answer my 1st question. I will take that as an admission it is an extra-biblical phrase (which it is).

As for Acts 1, I used to use this passage as a proof-text for Premillennialism, when I held to that school of thought. However, I believe a closer examination of the narrative shows a different story to that argued by that belief. Many Premillennialists advance the disciples question to Christ in Acts 1:6 relating to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, as evidence that Christ is going to set up a future physical temporal kingdom on this earth for 1000 years after His second coming. I believe such an interpretation emanates more from a partial preconceived idea of the word “kingdom” rather than any direct or indirect allusion to, or a clear description of, a post-Second Coming earthly physical millennial kingdom in this passage.

The two verses that go before Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) support the idea of a spiritual kingdom. The two verses that follow Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) show the Lord giving a spiritual response to their question.

Before the question came Christ was exhorting the disciples on the need for patience as they awaited the empowerment of the Holy Ghost to take the Gospel out to “the whosoever.” Everything about the context is spiritual. The Lord was stating “that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:4-5).

Surely an unbiased look at these introductory comments would give us insight into what the Lord was teaching and what actually provoked the question that followed it. Undoubtedly the Lord was giving spiritual instruction about a spiritual kingdom that would shortly come with great power and fire? This is not territorial language.

What is “the Promise of the Father” here? Is it a material physical kingdom or is it a spiritual heavenly kingdom? Is it a millennial kingdom similar to this evil age, filled with death and rebellion, or was He speaking of the power of the Holy Ghost that would fall upon the disciples to empower them to bring the good news of Christ to all nations – starting in Jerusalem?

Evidently, Christ was referring to the day of Pentecost where the Church received its Holy Ghost baptism of fire. The whole discourse here is spiritual and revolved around the development of this spiritual kingdom subsequent to Christ’s ascension. Jesus confirms this again in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (or dunamis) from on high.”

The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which was a power from on high that endued them for service.

Jesus had previously said to the disciples in Mark 9:1: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).

Christ was speaking of Pentecost. He said the disciples would not die until they had “seen the kingdom come with power” – referring here the Church’s baptism of fire to win a lost world. It didn’t mean they would die when that happened.

The disciples then interjected with a question: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

Premillennialists attribute much extravagant, extensive and grandiose detail to this simple question. They build a whole school of thought pertaining to a supposed period after the second coming out of this basic inquiry. They call it a millennial age and make it a Jewish-orientated kingdom. Nevertheless, and significantly, New Testament Scripture knows nothing of such an old-covenant-type Jewish age. That has been reduced to the history books.

What Premillennialists fail to see is: there is no mention of a future period after the second coming in the question, neither is there any intimation of that. There is not even any mention of the second coming, never mind a belief in a thousand-year reign of Christ on a still corrupt earth! No one could derive such a doctrine from this straightforward question. It would have to be taught elsewhere for it to enjoy veracity.

The most that we could take from this is that they may indeed have anticipated the introduction of a parochial, territorial and old-covenant-type physical kingdom. But that is far from a foregone conclusion. We can only, at best, speculate on that. Even if that was their assumption, that in no way proves that it was a legitimate hope. The disciples were often misguided in their expectations and narrow-minded in their tribal aspirations. They frequently saw no further than the borders of Israel. We see that played in the book of Acts, with their reluctance to advance the Gospel to the Gentiles.

It is hard to read the motives and intention of the question. Many times, the disciples were not getting the full meaning of Christ’s teaching. He sent His whole ministry correcting and re-directing them. So it could have been a patriotic desire. But Christ’s response nails it. That is what is key, not the disciples’ question. Premils tend to ignore the context and response and just talk about one verse in this narrative. That is because it suits their theology.

Regardless, it doesn’t really matter what the disciples thought, we need to rather ascertain what Christ thought and taught. We should remember: that this question came in the midst of a spiritual discourse about the kingdom of God arriving in power at Pentecost. Christ’s reply is key. It is powerful. It is direct. It nails the literalist’s interpretation of this in a carnal earthly sense.
 

ewq1938

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The main rule for premillennials is that Christ comes as a thief and it is his will for we to live our lives as though he could come today.


This is inaccurate. Only Pretrib Premills believe that. Post-trib Premills know Christ does not return as a thief because they know the signs of his return.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 

rockytopva

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This is inaccurate. Only Pretrib Premills believe that. Post-trib Premills know Christ does not return as a thief because they know the signs of his return.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
I have got to go with Isaac Newton on this one... Word for word..

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v: "So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
 

rockytopva

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I wouldn't attend a church that did not emphasize Christ's returning as something that could occur at any moment. Such people are...

1. Decent
2. Holy
3. Joyful
4. Christ-Like
5. Spirit filled
6. Without

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

People who are impure are filled with deceit, carnality, ego, and the like. Just went to a pure church a few weeks ago! The preacher and the congregation were all wonderfully in character and in spirit. Too bad I have got to drive an hour to get there!

 

ewq1938

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I have got to go with Isaac Newton on this one... Word for word..

And I will go with the bible, Word for word which is the true Word not the false word of Newton.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 

rockytopva

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And I will go with the bible, Word for word which is the true Word not the false word of Newton.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
That scripture means that if Christ were to come today we are not in darkness that we should be left behind.
 

ewq1938

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I wouldn't attend a church that did not emphasize Christ's returning as something that could occur at any moment. Such people are...

Only the false christ can appear at any moment. The bible is clear Christ cannot return at any moment.
 

ewq1938

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That scripture means that if Christ were to come today we are not in darkness that we should be left behind.


No, it means just what it says, Christians will not be surprised by the return of Christ.
 

rockytopva

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Only the false christ can appear at any moment. The bible is clear Christ cannot return at any moment.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 24
 
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ewq1938

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36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshiping Christ and start worshiping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.
 

rockytopva

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2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshiping Christ and start worshiping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.
Well.. If you don't believe brother Matthew lets try brother Luke...

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. - Luke 12
 

WPM

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I wouldn't attend a church that did not emphasize Christ's returning as something that could occur at any moment. Such people are...

1. Decent
2. Holy
3. Joyful
4. Christ-Like
5. Spirit filled
6. Without

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

People who are impure are filled with deceit, carnality, ego, and the like. Just went to a pure church a few weeks ago! The preacher and the congregation were all wonderfully in character and in spirit. Too bad I have got to drive an hour to get there!


Instead of always presenting your personal opinions, how about furnishing us with hard Scripture that teaches that there will be a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?
 

rockytopva

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Hopefully there is enough hope in modern day teachings that the end result is a pure, hopeful, and joyful spirit...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3
 

WPM

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Hopefully there is enough hope in modern day teachings that the end result is a pure, hopeful, and joyful spirit...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

I take it by your avoidance that you are acknowledging: there is nothing in the sacred text that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?
 

rockytopva

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Instead of always presenting your personal opinions, how about furnishing us with hard Scripture that teaches that there will be a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

I take it by your avoidance that you are acknowledging: there is nothing in the sacred text that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

Well... Agreed! Rapture is not in the Bible... But caught up is!
 
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WPM

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Well... Agreed! Rapture is not in the Bible... But caught up is!

That is not what I asked. We all know that. We should all accept that. Where is this teaching that you promote (a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord)? Show me one text in the whole of Scripture that teaches this.

I used to believe it until i was open enough to study it for myself.
 

rockytopva

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That is not what I asked. We all know that. We should all accept that. Where is this teaching that you promote (a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord)? Show me one text in the whole of Scripture that teaches this.

I used to believe it until i was open enough to study it for myself.
Where did I mention this? Please quote me in this thread....