...

[TreesTrees]

...

 

[2ndRateMind]

So, all civilised people are against the corporal punishment of children. Such violence begets only resentment and revenge. Seeing as I see the civilised, of whatever faith or none, as expressing the best we currently understand of God, I am not at all surprised to learn He is not in favour.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[-Phil]

I was spreading the good news, that everyone will go to Heaven through faith alone in Jesus Christ

The Good News isn’t grasped quite yet sir. In truth salvation is a table for one.
“Christian Universal Salvation” is an appropriation of truth, not a representation of truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I also support Christian Universal Salvation.

I was spreading the good news, that everyone will go to Heaven through faith alone in Jesus Christ, when I came across a girl who loves the Lord and she said an offhand comment about her parents potentially “wooping” her because she called 911 when her mother left the stove on and almost burned the house down.



Not only was the child in the right to call 911, since the cookies they were baking came out half burnt when the mother came and it could have turned into a serious fire, but as well, The Lord is against violent punishment.



“Wooping” here could refer to a spanking, a beating, or anything else that’s physically abusive. So, I said “The Bible is against the corporeal punishment of children”.



Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.



And further I said “The Rod that the Bible talks about is the same rod that Shepard’s use to guide their sheep.” Shepard’s don’t beat their sheep, that’s animal abuse. Thus, parents must not beat their children, that is child abuse.



Proverbs 29:15 A rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

A rod

שֵׁ֣בֶט (šê·ḇeṭ)

Noun - masculine singular

Strong's 7626: Rod, staff, club, scepter, tribe



The Rod shows that a parent must always be there for their child, watching over them, instructing them righteousness.



Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.



When a child is beaten, they become angry. Scientifically, physical hurting a child triggers intense stress hormones to be released in their brain which is the textbook definition of the emotion of anger.



The Bible says to not provoke children to anger. Do not scream at children, or aggressively yell at them. Instead, firmly and kindly say to them what is good, constantly. Discipline refers to giving a child rules to follow, telling them right from wrong, teaching them to be kind to others.



When you spank a child, you don’t respect them as another human, another one of God’s creations and you insult the Lord.



As well, there are many psychological studies that show that spanking is not only an ineffective method of discipline, but in fact encourages children to become more violent. And the Lord hates violence!



1 Timothy 3:3 Not violent but gentle

Proverbs 3:31 Do not envy the violent or choose any of their ways

Psalms 11:5 Those who love violence, he hates with a passion.

Proverbs 13:2 But the unfaithful have an appetite for violence

Proverbs 10:6-7 But violence covereth the mouth of the wicked

Proverbs 16:29 Violent people mislead their companions, leading them down a harmful path

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, outbursts of anger.

Proverbs 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence

Ezekiel 45:9 Thus says the Lord GOD: Put away violence.



An excellent thread on Tentmaker talks about this too.

Prov.23:13-14



Another Christian article that’s against the physical abuse of children.

Thomas Haller: Parenting and Relationship Expert





As well as some other scientific studies on the negatives of spanking of children.

The case against spanking



Risks of Harm from Spanking Confirmed by Analysis of Five Decades of Research - UT News



Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research



So, to continue with my Evangelism conversation, she replied “Oh, they barely hit me”, but even still, barely hitting someone hard is still hitting someone.



Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.



This is also another reason why Sheol will not have a physical fire, but rather, a mental one. They will feel mental pain and guilt for their actions in contrast to God’s love. God does not repay evil with evil.



1 Peter 3:9 Do not repay evil with evil

Romans 12:17-18 Recompense to no man evil for evil



It is a great evil that spanking children is still widespread, just as it is a great evil that the belief in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell forever is still widespread. I felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to write this, with a similar conviction that I felt when compelled to write about Universal Salvation.



So, to all parents, please love your children. Do not harden your hearts. Because God loves us as a parent loves their children and will save everyone through Christ. Amen.

wrong! spanking to train a child (teach them the consequences of negative actions) is the height of loving them. to paraphrase SCripture- those who spare the rod do not love their children.

I spanked all of my children and they have grown up to be upstanding faithful believers in Jesus and raising great families of their own!

We should not spank to abuse but spank to yes sting their derrieres and never in anger. when God allows us to feel the consequences of our sins- He does it to train us and teach us that sin hurts.

And the rod is "sebet" and it has multiple uses and meanings. It is a rod for whipping and a rod a shepherd uses, also for writing etc. So that is a faulty argument.

 

[-Phil]

wrong! spanking to train a child (teach them the consequences of negative actions) is the height of loving them. to paraphrase SCripture- those who spare the rod do not love their children.

I spanked all of my children and they have grown up to be upstanding faithful believers in Jesus and raising great families of their own!

We should not spank to abuse but spank to yes sting their derrieres and never in anger. when God allows us to feel the consequences of our sins- He does it to train us and teach us that sin hurts.

And the rod is "sebet" and it has multiple uses and meanings. It is a rod for whipping and a rod a shepherd uses, also for writing etc. So that is a faulty argument.

No, it’s just child abuse. You beat your beliefs and ignorance into your own kids.
Unconditional would never and could never hurt or harm itself.
There is no “rod”. That’s just personal justification & rationalization using religion to hurt people.
‘They’re’ not even ‘your’ kids.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

wrong! spanking to train a child (teach them the consequences of negative actions) is the height of loving them. to paraphrase SCripture- those who spare the rod do not love their children.

I spanked all of my children and they have grown up to be upstanding faithful believers in Jesus and raising great families of their own!

We should not spank to abuse but spank to yes sting their derrieres and never in anger. when God allows us to feel the consequences of our sins- He does it to train us and teach us that sin hurts.

No, it’s just child abuse. You beat your beliefs and ignorance into your own kids.
Unconditional would never and could never hurt or harm itself.
There is no “rod”. That’s just personal justification & rationalization using religion to hurt people.
‘They’re’ not even ‘your’ kids.

Well they were given to me to care for and raise by God.

Your jumping to conclusions without even probing and asking questions is saddening.

YOu may think what you wish, but God has "spanked" His children and rather hard throughout the ages, especially Israel, when He raised up nations to slay and take into captivity. And Gods unconditional love was still there.

It seems like you are confusing unconditional love with a license to allow your kids to do anything they wish.

All you need do is look at the last 70 years of American history. IN the 50's and 60's corporal punishment was still allowed in schools and the level of violence and theft etc.eetc was far less than since all these empty eggheads have come out and said do not spank your child.

 

[-Phil]

Well they were given to me to care for and raise by God.

To see this is a belief, earnestly explain exactly how that happens.
No assumptions. Explain how a separate self is literally, scientifically speaking, actually created.
Question the assumption you were born. Bring the direct experience of what it was like when you were born and or created to mind.

The ‘individual’ will not.
This will be projected.
Because scrutinizing this means the end of the ‘individual’.

Your jumping to conclusions without even probing and asking questions is saddening.

Child abuse isn’t grey.
Neither is the conscience or karma.

YOu may think what you wish, but God has "spanked" His children and rather hard throughout the ages, especially Israel, when He raised up nations to slay and take into captivity. And Gods unconditional love was still there.

God has never touched anyone.

It seems like you are confusing unconditional love with a license to allow your kids to do anything they wish.

Unless of course you read what was said without adding to it or assuming or projecting anything.

All you need do is look at the last 70 years of American history. IN the 50's and 60's corporal punishment was still allowed in schools and the level of violence and theft etc.eetc was far less than since all these empty eggheads have come out and said do not spank your child.

Child abuse is violence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

o see this is a belief, earnestly explain exactly how that happens.
No assumptions. Explain how a separate self is literally, scientifically speaking, actually created.
Question the assumption you were born. Bring the direct experience of what it was like when you were born and or created to mind.

The ‘individual’ will not.
This will be projected.
Because scrutinizing this means the end of the ‘individual’.

Have no clue. I just know we are born, enter this life and given by God to parents to raise them to become Godly. The hows are above my pay grade. I understand conception and the growth once sperm and egg hit. but the rest is unimportant to know.

Child abuse isn’t grey.
Neither is the conscience or karma.

And peoples difinition of child abuse are all over the map. what one calls abuse another calls lovingly disciplining, Unless of course real abuse is taking place. There is a world of difference of spanking as discipline and abuse.

God has never touched anyone.

No, But He raised up nations to invade Israel for their sin. Tens of thousands were killed often by the direction of God!

Unless of course you read what was said without adding to it or assuming or projecting anything.

Well it is a subject that is up for debate by experts on both sides and lines are being drawn. But I have seen when corporal punishment was still allowed in schools and what wee have now- and I consider what is happening now in society as the far worse form of child abuse. children are not being trained by all these crazy theories

Child abuse is violence.

And what parents and social engineers are foisting on society in how to raise kids today is a far worse form of violence against kids. Problems, and sin, and suicides and early drinking and kids involved in mass shootings are all now out of control because society has condemend and stolen the rod out of parents hands.

 

[-Phil]

Have no clue. I just know we are born,

You assume you were born, even though you never actually experienced it.

enter this life and given by God to parents to raise them to become Godly. The hows are above my pay grade.

It’s not a question of education or rank, it’s simply a question of honesty & integrity.

I understand conception and the growth once sperm and egg hit. but the rest is unimportant to know.

If you understood conception you’d be aware you conceived yourself.
Still are apparently.

And peoples difinition of child abuse are all over the map. what one calls abuse another calls lovingly disciplining, Unless of course real abuse is taking place. There is a world of difference of spanking as discipline and abuse.

Hitting adults is called assault. Hitting children is called child abuse. Do you hit adults too?

No, But He raised up nations to invade Israel for their sin. Tens of thousands were killed often by the direction of God!

This is a belief with no direct experience whatsoever. You’re literally using the name of God to justify child abuse.

Well it is a subject that is up for debate by experts on both sides and lines are being drawn. But I have seen when corporal punishment was still allowed in schools and what wee have now- and I consider what is happening now in society as the far worse form of child abuse. children are not being trained by all these crazy theories

God would never desire a person harm another person. Using God to justify harm isn’t even a theory, it’s insanity.

And what parents and social engineers are foisting on society in how to raise kids today is a far worse form of violence against kids. Problems, and sin, and suicides and early drinking and kids involved in mass shootings are all now out of control because society has condemend and stolen the rod out of parents hands.

Harm & abuse begets harm & abuse. Justifications and rationalizations perpetuate it.

 

[ScottA]

I also support Christian Universal Salvation.

I was spreading the good news, that everyone will go to Heaven through faith alone in Jesus Christ, when I came across a girl who loves the Lord and she said an offhand comment about her parents potentially “wooping” her because she called 911 when her mother left the stove on and almost burned the house down.



Not only was the child in the right to call 911, since the cookies they were baking came out half burnt when the mother came and it could have turned into a serious fire, but as well, The Lord is against violent punishment.



“Wooping” here could refer to a spanking, a beating, or anything else that’s physically abusive. So, I said “The Bible is against the corporeal punishment of children”.



Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.



And further I said “The Rod that the Bible talks about is the same rod that Shepard’s use to guide their sheep.” Shepard’s don’t beat their sheep, that’s animal abuse. Thus, parents must not beat their children, that is child abuse.



Proverbs 29:15 A rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

A rod

שֵׁ֣בֶט (šê·ḇeṭ)

Noun - masculine singular

Strong's 7626: Rod, staff, club, scepter, tribe



The Rod shows that a parent must always be there for their child, watching over them, instructing them righteousness.



Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.



When a child is beaten, they become angry. Scientifically, physical hurting a child triggers intense stress hormones to be released in their brain which is the textbook definition of the emotion of anger.



The Bible says to not provoke children to anger. Do not scream at children, or aggressively yell at them. Instead, firmly and kindly say to them what is good, constantly. Discipline refers to giving a child rules to follow, telling them right from wrong, teaching them to be kind to others.



When you spank a child, you don’t respect them as another human, another one of God’s creations and you insult the Lord.



As well, there are many psychological studies that show that spanking is not only an ineffective method of discipline, but in fact encourages children to become more violent. And the Lord hates violence!



1 Timothy 3:3 Not violent but gentle

Proverbs 3:31 Do not envy the violent or choose any of their ways

Psalms 11:5 Those who love violence, he hates with a passion.

Proverbs 13:2 But the unfaithful have an appetite for violence

Proverbs 10:6-7 But violence covereth the mouth of the wicked

Proverbs 16:29 Violent people mislead their companions, leading them down a harmful path

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, outbursts of anger.

Proverbs 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence

Ezekiel 45:9 Thus says the Lord GOD: Put away violence.



An excellent thread on Tentmaker talks about this too.

Prov.23:13-14



Another Christian article that’s against the physical abuse of children.

Thomas Haller: Parenting and Relationship Expert





As well as some other scientific studies on the negatives of spanking of children.

The case against spanking



Risks of Harm from Spanking Confirmed by Analysis of Five Decades of Research - UT News



Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research



So, to continue with my Evangelism conversation, she replied “Oh, they barely hit me”, but even still, barely hitting someone hard is still hitting someone.



Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.



This is also another reason why Sheol will not have a physical fire, but rather, a mental one. They will feel mental pain and guilt for their actions in contrast to God’s love. God does not repay evil with evil.



1 Peter 3:9 Do not repay evil with evil

Romans 12:17-18 Recompense to no man evil for evil



It is a great evil that spanking children is still widespread, just as it is a great evil that the belief in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell forever is still widespread. I felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to write this, with a similar conviction that I felt when compelled to write about Universal Salvation.



So, to all parents, please love your children. Do not harden your hearts. Because God loves us as a parent loves their children and will save everyone through Christ. Amen.

Sparing not the rod, is not "violence."

Proverbs 13:24​

He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.​

But...He who hates, disguises it with his lips, And lays up deceit within himself. Proverbs 26:24

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It’s not a question of education or rank, it’s simply a question of honesty & integrity.

Well then I honestly with integrity spanked my children for just a few acts of rebellion. they suffered no harm and are much more honest and filled with integrity than the average person their age who underwent this spare the rod philosophy.

You assume you were born, even though you never actually experienced it.

And what assumption do you make? I have witnesses who were there when I came outr of mommys womb. How do you think you made your way into this world.

If you understood conception you’d be aware you conceived yourself.
Still are apparently.

Well you r concept is on the surface utter nonsense.

Hitting adults is called assault. Hitting children is called child abuse. Do you hit adults too?

Now it is. Back when America still has sanity it wasn't. No I am not responsible for adults. I would never spank another's child nor hit an adult exepct in defense. so this is irrelevant Mans laws change- Gods law remain.

This is a belief with no direct experience whatsoever. You’re literally using the name of God to justify child abuse.

Says you. The majority would disgree. And it is not called child abuse by god, but disciplining a child. YOu can name what you wish I will call it what God calls it.

God would never desire a person harm another person. Using God to justify harm isn’t even a theory, it’s insanity.

I assume then you have never read the bible. Or are jjust ignoring the parts that prove you wrong.

Harm & abuse begets harm & abuse. Justifications and rationalizations perpetuate it.

I await your empirical research that proves this concept
.

 

[-Phil]

Well then I honestly with integrity spanked my children for just a few acts of rebellion. they suffered no harm and are much more honest and filled with integrity than the average person their age who underwent this spare the rod philosophy.

No ‘spare the rod philosophy’ is being suggested. Not abusing children for ‘rebelling’ is being suggested. If I were your abused child, the healthiest possibility would be rebellion.

And what assumption do you make?

What’s being suggested is inspecting and realizing the Truth, no longer assuming anything.

I have witnesses who were there when I came outr of mommys womb.

I understand. This is a subtle but critical nuance of inspection as it relates to Truth.
Witness testimony is not (your) direct experience.

The testimony of a witness of a unicorn for example, is not the same as the direct experience of a unicorn.

How do you think you made your way into this world.

It was assumed there was a “thinker”, and therein a “separate thing”… a “world”.
This is precisely what is being suggested… that while it very, very much seems you are ‘in’ a ‘world’, you are actually not at all of this ‘world’. You are Being ’the world’, in a manor which makes it seem as if you are in a world.

(Imagining is also not direct experience, but to communicate, to point…)

Imagine you are infinite & formless, and therein not a thing, and therein… could be - as in appear as any “thing”.
Notice the empty space as it were, of the room, is not separate from the empty space outside the room, which is not separate from ;outer space’. Go outside and look up, see, in direct experience, that there is no “end”.

Imagine the empty space of the room as infinite, formless & limitless.

Imagine that empty space appears as a snow globe, the kind you shake up and snow falls in.

For the empty space, there wouldn’t be an experience though, because infinite can not know finite. The infinite formless limitless ’empty space’, being self-knowing, self-aware… would be well aware there is no “snow globe”, only it’s self appearing as.

Cool as it would be to appear as a world (‘snow globe’), what would be way, way cooler, would be to make it seem to yourself that you are actually inside of the ‘world’ (’snow globe’).

And being infinite, formless and limitless, you simply appear as another ‘globe’, a lens, a ‘looking glass’ as it were, which makes it seem like you’re inside the ‘world’… just like how a magnifying lens makes it seem like things are magnified, though when the lens is put down, there never was any ‘things’ magnified. The lens therein, is like a ‘finite’ lens, making it seem as if there really are finite ‘things’, until the ‘lens’ is put down.

Well you r concept is on the surface utter nonsense.

There is no such ‘thing’ as a “my concept”. That is a conceptualization.
I am.

Now it is. Back when America still has sanity it wasn't. No I am not responsible for adults. I would never spank another's child nor hit an adult exepct in defense. so this is irrelevant Mans laws change- Gods law remain.

Ye knows not what sanity & insanity is, precisely because ye “knows”.
“I know” is an illusion.

Says you. The majority would disgree. And it is not called child abuse by god, but disciplining a child. YOu can name what you wish I will call it what God calls it.

If everyone “on the planet” believes the same, it’s still a belief. Without suppressing the truth, without self ignorance, no one would ever harm anyone.

I assume then you have never read the bible. Or are jjust ignoring the parts that prove you wrong.

The suggestion here is no longer assuming, and instead inspecting & discovering the actual Truth.
There is no one who is right or wrong. In large part, that is the message of The Bible. Hence the true of the knowledge of good & evil, and so called, ‘death’.

I await your empirical research that proves this concept

“Empirical research” is still subject to the believing of or not believing of “empirical research”.
As it pertains to child abuse, you are the empirical evidence in that you didn’t break the cycle.
Harm is felt, and is not conceptual.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No ‘spare the rod philosophy’ is being suggested. Not abusing children for ‘rebelling’ is being suggested. If I were your abused child, the healthiest possibility would be rebellion.

Well as you have a differing definition of abuse we will not agree.

What’s being suggested is inspecting and realizing the Truth, no longer assuming anything.

Jesus is teh truth and His Word is our guide- and He says it is needful to put a little pain on our precious liitle ones behinds from time to time.

It was assumed there was a “thinker”, and therein a “separate thing”… a “world”.
This is precisely what is being suggested… that while it very, very much seems you are ‘in’ a ‘world’, you are actually not at all of this ‘world’. You are Being ’the world’, in a manor which makes it seem as if you are in a world.

YOu are just getting way too new age for reality.

There is no such ‘thing’ as a “my concept”. That is a conceptualization.
I am.

Well enjoy contemplating you rnavel and all that mystic stuff. I prefer to trust God and know I was made and formed and came into existence in a point of time
ciao!

 

[-Phil]

Well as you have a differing definition of abuse we will not agree.

It’s easy to philosophize & disagree when we’re not being harmed.

Jesus is teh truth and His Word is our guide- and He says it is needful to put a little pain on our precious liitle ones behinds from time to time.

I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with rationalizing harming others using Jesus, I’m just pointing to the truth prior to beliefs & justifications.

YOu are just getting way too new age for reality.

Is there reality and new age?

Well enjoy contemplating you rnavel and all that mystic stuff. I prefer to trust God and know I was made and formed and came into existence in a point of time
ciao!

I’ve nothing against beliefs.

 

[ScottA]

Only a bum would be against spanking ;)

 

[ScottA]

No, it’s just child abuse. You beat your beliefs and ignorance into your own kids.
Unconditional would never and could never hurt or harm itself.
There is no “rod”. That’s just personal justification & rationalization using religion to hurt people.
‘They’re’ not even ‘your’ kids.

In that twisted logic, the cross would be child abuse

 

[Wrangler]

And the rod is "sebet" and it has multiple uses and meanings. It is a rod for whipping and a rod a shepherd uses, also for writing etc. So that is a faulty argument.

Last year I took a deep dive into Psalm 23 in a Bible Study class, which used a book just for Psalm 23.

The book explained shepherds tended to have 2 "rods;" the famous shephers' hooked staff to tend to the flock and also a short club to defend against wolves, etc.

 

[Wrangler]

YOu may think what you wish, but God has "spanked" His children and rather hard throughout the ages, especially Israel, when He raised up nations to slay and take into captivity.

And he did so in righteous anger!

 

[Wrangler]

Child abuse isn’t grey.

Beating childnren is not abuse. NOT beating them is abuse.


Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Ps 23:14

 

[Wrangler]

So, all civilised people are against the corporal punishment of children.

So, America was not civilized in the 1950's when corporal punishment of children was policy?

Hitting adults is called assault.

You advocate only government commit such crimes or what?

Harm & abuse begets harm & abuse.

This is why all civilised governments have abolished their police and military. So, they won't be accused of assaulting anyone. Is that right?