Them that are left on earth after Armageddon's destruction

[robert derrick]

There are many events associated w/ the DoL as it is over 1000 yrs. long. The fire event you speak of isn't until sometime after the end of the millennium.

True. Just as Scripture plainly says, when His reign expires. The loosing of Satan one last time on earth, and the gathering of Gog and Magog, is after His reign on earth with His saints.

They will be gathering around an empty camp of the saints, who will then be in heaven with God, when He sends fire down to burn and melt it all.

The prophecy in 2 peter 3, is not just of the earth, but all the elements of this heaven, being melted, as well as the earth.

The DoL begins w/ the signs of the 6th seal.

How so?

Acts 2:21 may actually be how the 144,000 come to be.

If yuou are saying the 144,000 represents all saints of God, I agree.

I believe Jesus began building His church on earth immediately after His resurrection, and it is Mary Magdalene that is the first Christian saint on earth. She's the first one in Scripture to believe His resurrection, and witness of Him as Lord.

 

[Trekson]

True.



Them alive on earth are changed in a moment, and ascend into the air to meet with the Lord, which is the same as the two witnesses in Rev 11.

I believe the dead in Christ, that are already in the presence of the Lord at His altar in heaven, will receive their resurrected bodies, and be the armies coming with Him out of heaven, to meet with them ascending from the earth.

Since they all come with clouds, I believe that is when the sun and moon are darkened, and the inhabitants remaining on the earth are in darkness over all the earth.



The great tribulation of the saints has been since Cain slew righteous Abel. The last days of our tribulation began with Jesus' resurrection.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

The greatest tribulation any saint has on earth, is the great tribulation of that day.

The end of these last days will be the rise of the last great antichrist beast, and the resurrection of the saints at the Lord's return.

There is the tribulation and wrath of the devil and wicked men upon the righteous, which purifies the faithful, and then there is the tribulation and wrath of God upon all the wicked, that punishes them.

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.


True. That is all the saints of all time since Abel, today, and during Christ's reign, that will stand before God and the Lamb.

I believe that is just prior to New Jerusalem coming down onto the new earth, and just after the final judgment of the Lamb's book of life, because there is no hint nor sense of any of the wicked being anywhere around.




All saints are martyrs in that we must crucify our old man and life of sin. That is why all resurrected saint are said to have been beheaded for the word and testimony of God.

Since Paul plainly speaks of all the dead in Christ, and them remaining alive on earth, will have part in that first resurrection, then being beheaded must be spiritual in nature.

He is said to have been physically beheaded as a Roman, but not all Christians are bodily killed for the faith, though we ought all be willing.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Every saint in Christ Jesus must behead the old man from having rule over our life, and welcome the Headship of Jesus over His own body of flesh and bone on earth.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Rev. 20:4 is not speaking of a timing, just showing where they came from. They will be part of the Rev. 7:9 rapture/resurrection.

 

[Trekson]

True. Just as Scripture plainly says, when His reign expires. The loosing of Satan one last time on earth, and the gathering of Gog and Magog, is after His reign on earth with His saints.

They will be gathering around an empty camp of the saints, who will then be in heaven with God, when He sends fire down to burn and melt it all.

The prophecy in 2 peter 3, is not just of the earth, but all the elements of this heaven, being melted, as well as the earth.


How so?



If yuou are saying the 144,000 represents all saints of God, I agree.

I believe Jesus began building His church on earth immediately after His resurrection, and it is Mary Magdalene that is the first Christian saint on earth. She's the first one in Scripture to believe His resurrection, and witness of Him as Lord.

No, the 144,000 are just who Jesus says they are, there's no need to add to what the scripture plainly says. Yes, they will be coming to attack a mostly empty camp but they haven't gone to heaven. Zech. 14:4-5 shows where they go.

 

[robert derrick]

Rev. 20:4 is not speaking of a timing, just showing where they came from.

The timing is when the Lord comes to receive His church and for war on earth in Rev 19.

It is when Satan is shut up for a thousand years of His reign.

20:4 is speaking of the resurrection already taken place, when He comes with His resurrected armies.

All saints dying in Christ are martyrs of the old man of sin. Abel was the first one martyred bodily by the first antichrist Cain. Cain talked with Abel with persuade him to another sacrifice, than the Lord commands us.

They will be part of the Rev. 7:9 rapture/resurrection.

I believe that is after the thousand year reign. Those alive on earth at His coming with ascend to meet Him in the air, and then come down to earth to fight and reign with Him.

 

[robert derrick]

No, the 144,000 are just who Jesus says they are, there's no need to add to what the scripture plainly says.

Correction. They are the saints on earth sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. These are not 144,000 Christian 'Jews', since there is no such thing.

7:9-10 are all resurrected saints represented by those 144,00 standing on Mt Sion with the Lamb, which is in heaven.

Yes, they will be coming to attack a mostly empty camp but they haven't gone to heaven. Zech. 14:4-5 shows where they go.

Zech 14 is not Rev 20.

Zech 144-5 is the beginning of His reign, and Rev 20:7-10 is after the thousand years are expired.

 

[Trekson]

The timing is when the Lord comes to receive His church and for war on earth in Rev 19.

It is when Satan is shut up for a thousand years of His reign.

20:4 is speaking of the resurrection already taken place, when He comes with His resurrected armies.

All saints dying in Christ are martyrs of the old man of sin. Abel was the first one martyred bodily by the first antichrist Cain. Cain talked with Abel with persuade him to another sacrifice, than the Lord commands us.



I believe that is after the thousand year reign. Those alive on earth at His coming with ascend to meet Him in the air, and then come down to earth to fight and reign with Him.

No, the last generation of the church will be literally killed for their beliefs just like the first generation of the church was. Going up and coming back down makes no sense. It may be the church or it may be angels but it certainly won't be pre-trib.

 

[Trekson]

Correction. They are the saints on earth sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. These are not 144,000 Christian 'Jews', since there is no such thing.

7:9-10 are all resurrected saints represented by those 144,00 standing on Mt Sion with the Lamb, which is in heaven.



Zech 14 is not Rev 20.

Zech 144-5 is the beginning of His reign, and Rev 20:7-10 is after the thousand years are expired.

The 144,000 only represent themselves. God's not an idiot, I think he can tell the difference between 144,000 and a number too large to count when John was able to count millions of angels in Rev. 5. Zech. 14 isn't the only chapter that is post mill, Ez. 38 is also post mill. No such thing as "christian jews"??? That's all the church was for the first 20 yrs. or so! Jesus will rule from Jerusalem in a much larger Israel. If Israel means nothing to him, why go there? The gospel went to the Jew first and we are told more than once that the time of the gentiles will have an end. The woman of Rev. 12 is Israel in the beginning then believing Israel when they are being chased by the a/c. They become believers when their blindness is healed, their eyes are opened when the a/c breaks the 2nd commandment in Rev. 13:14-15. At that point, Zech. 12:10 and 13:8-9 will be fulfilled and at the start of the millennium immediately after Armageddon, Matt. 23:39 will be fulfilled.