bbyrd009
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- Nov 30, 2016
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Heresy or error?
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All you are showing is your indoctrination into the dogma of Protestantism and are not searching for the truth of the Word as revealed by the Holy Ghost. To put it succinctly and as the apostles lamented themselves in their day...
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hebrews 5:12-14)
My suggestion is that you back off till you are ready to digest the meat spoken of here, instead of just regurgitating the indoctrinated Dogma of your denomination.
If You are actually seeking the truth, ask yourself what is the danger of distinguishing between the faithful and the saint? And Why is it that the leadership of the church is afraid of this distinction? And then I will answer your questions. If you are not seeking the truth and only wish to condemn, I will just ignore you.
God Bless.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Very well, I give you a challenge then. Use your liberty in Christ Jesus and explore the book of Revelation with the distinction in mind between the faithful and the saints, and see if it takes on a whole new meaning to you? Then if you do not like the outcome, go back to your indoctrinated ways.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The Assembly (1:1b–2)
Are you surprised to find Paul addressing his letter to
saints? After all, saints are dead people who have
achieved such spiritual eminence that they have been
given that special title, saints. Or are they?
No word in the New Testament has suffered more
than this word saint. Even the dictionary defines a saint
as a
“person officially recognized for holiness of life.”
Who makes this official recognition? Usually some religious body, and the process by which a person becomes
a saint is technically known as canonization. The
deceased person’s life is examined carefully to see
whether he qualifies for sainthood. If the candidate’s
character and conduct are found to be above reproach,
if he has been responsible for working at least two miracles, then he is qualified to be made a saint.
As interesting as this procedure is, we do not find it
authorized in the Bible.
Nine times in this brief letter,
Paul addressed his readers as saints (Eph. 1:1, 15, 18;
2:19; 3:8, 18; 4:12; 5:3; 6:18). These saints were alive,
not dead, though once they had been “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1–3). And it is clear that they
had never performed any miracles, though they had
experienced a miracle by trusting Christ as Savior (Eph.
2:4–10).
The word saint is simply one of the many
terms used in the New Testament to describe “one who
has trusted Jesus Christ as Savior.” The person is
“alive,” not only physically, but also spiritually (Eph.
2:1). You will find Christians called disciples (Acts 9:1,
10, 19, 25–26, 36, 38), people of the Way (Acts 9:2),
and saints (Acts 9:13, 32, 41).
The word saint means “one who has been set
apart.” It is related to the word sanctified, which means
“
set apart.”
When the sinner trusts Christ as his Savior,
he is taken out of “the world” and placed “in Christ.”
The believer is in the world physically, but not of the
world spiritually (John 17:14–16). Like a scuba diver,
he exists in an alien environment because he possesses
special equipment—in this case, the indwelling Holy
Ephesians 1
Spirit of God. Every true believer possesses the Holy
Spirit (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:19–20), and it is through
the Spirit’s power that the Christian is able to function
in the world.
Now for the important question: How did these
people at Ephesus become saints?
The answer is found
in two words: “faithful” and “grace” (Eph. 1:1–2).
When Paul addressed his letter to the “saints … and
faithful in Christ Jesus” he was not addressing two different groups of people. The word faithful carries the
meaning of “believers in Christ Jesus.”
These people
were not saved by living faithful lives; rather they put
their faith in Christ and were saved. This is clear from
Ephesians 1:12–14, 19.
The word grace is used twelve times in Ephesians,
and refers to “the kindness of God toward undeserving
people.” Grace and mercy often are found together in
the Bible, and they certainly belong together in the
experience of salvation. Grace and faith go together,
because the only way to experience grace and salvation
is through faith (Eph. 2:8–9).
The phrase “in Christ Jesus” is used twenty-seven
times in this letter! It describes the spiritual position of
the believer: He is identified with Christ he is in
Christ, and therefore is able to draw on the wealth of
Christ for his own daily living
WB
I am surprised ol' epi is in agreement with you.
...especially when you mentioned we "progress into becoming a saint" which is foreign to scriptures, yes?
Not two groups, but is used synonymously.
"Holy and faithful, saints and faithful", no two Definite Articles here denoting two groups of people.
Learn Koine Greek
Johann
Well-Known Member
Three times I have shown your error.
Especially the "progressive becoming like a saint and faithful"
Makes no sense, yes?
Who will these overcomers be ruling over in these verses? Who are those among “the nations“ that they will be ruling over?
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Who says that there is a distinction or a difference? Unless one is a saint he or she cannot be faithful.
After Christ establishes His literal visible Kingdom on earth, the saints will rule with Him. He will assign Christians to area of responsibility which will include ruling over others.
And who ARE those that the overcomers rule over during that reign? Who ARE those people?
Are they maybe the meek (who inherit the earth?)
Johann
Well-Known Member
This has got nothing to do with what I have been "discussing" with a "brother stunned and what you are asking is of no relevance to our current life and what is going to happen in the future is pure speculation.
I am more interesting in our CURRENT walk with Christ, His sayings, His Imperatives, and it would seem for every verse there is a 1050 different opinions, not being facetious.
Johann
Well-Known Member
I am not interested in what is going to happen in the future, as we are to examine ourselves daily IF we are of faith, and not being found adokimos/not standing the test after examination.
Johann
Well-Known Member
To be frank with you, the one indoctrinated is you friend, go and play your silly games somewhere else please.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
It is relevant to what you were saying about there being no distinction between holy and righteous, saints and faithful.
If there is no distinction, then you would say the overcomers in this life, who rule with Christ in that verse is everyone. Who then would everyone be ruling over?
Johann
Well-Known Member
From sinless perfection to a thorough "knowledge" of the book of Revelation, my my.
I gave the verse…it says overcomers will rule with Christ over the nations.
The thousand years is called by men “the millennial reign.” It’s biblical. Although, some odd men say it’s happening right now that the overcomers are ruling over the nations.
Suuure, that’s what it looks like.
Johann
Well-Known Member
When I say it is not relevant, it is not, speculation what is going to happen in the future is known to God and what stands written.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Rev 5:9-10 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (10) "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 2:25-26 Only hold on to what you have until I come. (26) To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
Mat 25:20-21 The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.' (21) His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
1Co 6:1-3 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? (2) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? (3) Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Luk 22:28-30 "You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; (29) and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you (30) that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
1Pe 1:3-4 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
While just some of the verses on the topic, you can see that there are many promises given to rule, reign and be a fellow heir with Christ. Some of these verses are for all believers. Some give conditions on enduring, overcoming and being rewards for faithful service here and now.
Luk 19:15-26 He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. (16) The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' (17) 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' (18) The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' (19) His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' (20) Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. (21) I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.' (22) His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? (23) Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' (24) Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' (25) 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' (26) He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away.
So note from the above that all the servants were given the same amount to begin with. For one servant the mina he was given earned 10 more and so he was given authority over 10 cities. For another it produced 5 more and so he was given authority over 5 cities. To another, who just hid his mina and did nothing with it, he was declared a wicked servant and what he had was taken from him. While it is possible that this is a speaking of a believer with no rewards, most take this wicked servant who thought of Jesus as a hard man, as a professing servant only who is exposed at the coming of the Lord. But the main thought is clear:
The extent of our rule in the coming age is a reward in proportion to our faithful service here so we want to be about our Father's business! So will someone whose works are all burnt up at the judgment seat of Christ, and have no rewards from the Lord, be given positions to rule with Him? No I don't believe so. Or if they do it will be in the most limited capacity. It is hard to be dogmatic on it as there are general promises of reigning with Christ that are given to all believers, but also others that are conditional on our service here and now. And the Bible doesn't spend a lot of time or detail explaining our specific role in the Millennium, and even less for those who are saved but receive no rewards.
But the main point that we should take from these passages and parables is to make the most of the time we have, for it glorifies Jesus and has an eternal consequence in terms of our rewards! Our ruling and reigning with Him then is directly related to our faithfulness in doing what He has asked of us now.
And, as we see from the crowns worn by the 24 elders in Revelation, they are cast back at the feet of Jesus for His glory - so we want to be those that have something to give back and honor the Lord with. (Rev 4:10)
Further than this I won't go.
I will try one more time. You said there’s no difference between righteous and holy. I gave you a verse that shows the holy/overcomers in this life ruling over the righteous/the nations. Unless you think they are ruling over…coconuts? (Don’t get hissy, it’s a joke).Yes, it talks about the future, but it shows a distinction between the holy and “whoever” they rule over.
There are plenty of verses regarding the saints ruling with Christ in His eternal Kingdom. I will give you a few verses and then you can discover the rest.
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor 6:2,3)
God sees His children as a Royal Priesthood -- kings and priests. Thus we read in Revelation 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The thousand years is just a prelude to eternity.
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