Just heard about the rosary....

[epostle1]

Blessed Mystery to some, but the Scripture declares ONE mystery: how God was manifest in flesh. (1 Timothy 3:16)

It truly amazes me how we somehow can build doctrines on air castles and then proclaim them to others?!

It truly amazes me how someone can ignore my post that explains "Mystery", taken from the original Greek, that agrees with 1 Timothy 3:16, and then accuses me of building "air castles". This is what you ignored:

In the Catholic sense, mystery means something that is known by divine revelation, which makes it beyond human understanding and thus must be accepted with faith because reason fails to define it alone. The word is from the Latin Mysterium which means the same thing as Sacrament which is Greek in origin.

To a Catholic a sacrament is a time when God touches ones life in a fundamental and personal way. We as Catholics live a sacramental life in that we believe that God is a personal God who touches our lives often. The Church has defined seven particular times in a person's life when God's touch is so intimate that those times are elevated to a "capital S" sacrament. These times are so important that they are celebrated within the Faith Community and leave a mark on the person that cannot be taken away. The seven sacraments are Baptism, First Eucharist, Reconciliation, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders and Anointing of the Sick/Dying. Most Sacraments are so important that they can only be received once by a Catholic. Eucharist, Reconciliation and Anointing are the three that are repeatable.

The other time one hears the term mystery in the Catholic tradition is when someone is speaking about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. While historically we can know that these events actually happened, there is a point where our reason and intellect fail in understanding the import of the events. At this point we must rely on our faith to accept the truth of these events. This is living in the Divine Mystery of the Resurrection of Jesus for the salvation of souls.

As these two examples are times when humans try to understand the action of God which cannot be done with reason alone, then for a Catholic the term mystery is meant to explain those actions and interventions of God into our world that we must accept on faith coupled with our reason which is also a gift from God.​

Groundzero, many people are hungry for deeper spiritual realities. They grow weary of the same old bible studies with the same old content, the same old Sunday hymns/sermon/hymns. They long for something deeper, richer, and that is one reason why THOUSANDS of Protestants are coming home to their true roots. Catholicism can offer what they are longing for. 1 Timothy 3:16 is a very rich passage, and you shouldn't be afraid of using reason to further unpack it's meaning.

MUST SEE - Mystery of the Catholic Eucharist and the Ancient Jewish 'Bread of the Presence' pt.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyOFHQzVRio

 

[mjrhealth]

Groundzero, many people are hungry for deeper spiritual realities. They grow weary of the same old bible studies with the same old content, the same old Sunday hymns/sermon/hymns. They long for something deeper, richer, and that is one reason why THOUSANDS of Protestants are coming home to their true roots. Catholicism can offer what they are

When people finally get tired of all the lies and desrie the truth, they will do what they should have done and should be taught, and that is turn to Christ, receive the Holy Spirit, and learn from the one that is the truth, Jesus".

He is given to " all men" who receive Jesus as Jesus promised He would,

Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

because,

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For Jesus said

Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

as the disciples realised,

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Because Christs Church is built on revelation,

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Yes God not man

But Jesus said,

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And many do not know Him

And Mary cannot Help you no matter how much you pray to her neither can church or any form of religion again it is written

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Seek who?? " Jesus"

In all His Love

 

[epostle1]

So you are anti-church, mjrhealth? How do " nondenominationalists" such as yourself , which has its own distinct theology, and often boast that they are “separated from any denomination or form of religion,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?

 

[Axehead]

mjrhealth, probably loves God's Church as do I. God's Church has nothing to do with man-made systems, though there will be some of His people in them as well as out of them.

Regarding the Eucharist (since you brought it up in a non-Catholic forum) - You need to read a little further in John. You stopped short. Also you need to understand what a metaphor is. Jesus is not a Door, not a Gate, not a Vine, not Bread, not Wine, not Water, not a Lamb and we are not Sheep with 4 legs.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He is saying that the word He just spoke to you (previous in John 6) they are spirit and they are life.

And spiritually, we can EAT God's Word that are Spirit and Life to us. Let Jeremiah explain.

Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Metaphorically, we are Sheep and He is our Shepherd and He will feed us of Himself by His Spirit. Did you see that in John 6:63. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth" and "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".

Here is an example:
Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

We are not lambs either, but you probably get the idea by now.

Why in the world would Jesus Christ who by His Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures and said "we no longer know Him after the flesh", want us to physically eat His flesh and drink His blood?
2Co_5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

He said that He must go away so that the Spirit would come. Nothing at all about eating His flesh. At the last supper, was it bread or His flesh? It was bread and we observe the Lord's supper in remembrance just as He said.

And if our method for getting Christ "into us" is supposed to be by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, then what is the reason for the indwelling Holy Spirit of God who is with us 24x7. How long does eating the wafer (Eucharist) actually last in someone before they have to eat it again?

Regarding Denominations (Man's religious organizations) - His Church is wholly His and it is not an earthly denomination or kingdom that is administrating His Church. Jesus is the Head of the Church (not the Pope) and He is administrating His Church by His Holy Spirit on earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

God's people are not identified by belonging to a particular religious organization. That is not how the Lord identifies those that are His.
2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Back to the Eucharist:
I have been told that, "yes you may have His Spirit but if you want the fullness of Christ, you must eat the Eucharist and that can only be found in the Catholic Church".

The people that have told me this don't seem to have any life in them and no wonder, every other word they take God's name in vain and they are drunkards. Fullness of Christ?

I don't think any further comment is needed.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Axehead, you scourge my Lord with scripture. Your angry, irrational hatred for the faith that is dear to me can no longer be tolerated. You are the first to be ignored since I've been here. Please tell your doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that can help you. Good bye.

 

[Groundzero]

As usual, my point is missed. My point was that Scripture speaks of ONE mystery. God being manifest in the flesh. That is it! Everything that followed was a result of this miraculous fusion between divinity and humanity. It was a fusion, not confusion.

And as for old this and old that, I've watched the world I live in look for 'new' things, and so far, we're heading down, not up. And according to God, there is no new thing under the sun. So what are you really changing?

 

[epostle1]

We all have bibles. Nobody reads miles of scriptures in a forum. Here's a bit of advice if you want your post to be taken seriously. If you want to quote scripture, post the verse address. The automatic reference is an outstanding feature, and it will save you time and space.

Groundzero, I haven't changed anything. I didn't invent the Greek language. See the bold font in post 422. It highlights the meaning of mystery as it pertains to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. You are arguing over something we agree on.

 

[mjrhealth]

There is no one here anti church, we just never signed up to mans church, when we came to Christ and gave our lives to Him, we became His Church. See teh Lords Church is something you become, not something you attend, if it where not so how could you become His bride.??

In all His gracious patients and love

 

[Axehead]

Axehead, you scourge my Lord with scripture. Your angry, irrational hatred for the faith that is dear to me can no longer be tolerated. You are the first to be ignored since I've been here. Please tell your doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that can help you. Good bye.

I know the technique of "emotionalism", Kepha. You have posted some very upsetting things yourself and don't seem to mind how it has affected the readers. We know you don't want to hear "non-Catholic" truth so (scripture), so why do you stay? You know that I am not the only one who has resisted what we consider your false doctrines and traditions of men.

 

[epostle1]

In the recitation of the rosary, the mysteries of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are meditated on. The prayers are just for background, like combining music with hymns. There are 20 mysteries, so rather than elaborate on all 20 of them, I will just pick one decade of the Luminous Mysteries for the sake of brevity. I like the scriptural rosary as many, both Catholics and Protestants use. I'm hoping to dispel the myths of "idolatry" that many of you have heard. We pray with our bodies with the beads, we pray with our minds with the prayers and scriptures, we pray with our hearts as if we were there, and we pray unceasingly as Paul commands. The first Luminous Mystery:

THE BAPTISM OF JESUS

LORD, GRANT ME GRATITUDE FOR THE GIFT OF FAITH

Our Father, who art in heaven...

1. "I am baptizing you with water for repentance but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I."
(Mt 3:11) - Hail Mary, Full of Grace....(Luke 1:48)

2. "I am not worthy to loosen the thongs of his sandals." (Lk 3:16) - Hail Mary....

3. "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Lk 3:16) - Hail Mary....

4. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." (Jn 1:29) - Hail Mary....

5. John said to him, "I have need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?" (Mt 3:14)
- Hail Mary....

6. Jesus said to him, "Allow it now for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." (Mt 3:15)
- Hail Mary....

7. Then he allowed it. (Mt 3:15) - Hail Mary...

8. After Jesus was baptized, he came out of the water and, behold, the heavens were opened unto him
(Mt 3:16) - Hail Mary....

9. And he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming upon him. (Mt 3:16) - Hail Mary....

10. And a voice from the heavens saying, " This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. " (Mt 3:17)
- Hail Mary....

Glory be to the Father, and to
the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now,
and ever shall be, world
without end. Amen

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins.
Save us from the fires of Hell;
lead all souls into Heaven,
especially those in most need
of Thy mercy. Amen.

The second decade begins with the Lord's Prayer. I'll omit the accompanying scriptures for the sake of brevity.

2.) THE WEDDING AT CANA

LORD, GRANT ME THE GRACE OF FIDELITY...

3) THE PROCLAMATION OF THE KINGDOM

LORD, GRANT ME THE DESIRE FOR HOLINESS

4) THE TRANSFIGURATION

LORD, GRANT ME THE GRACE OF SPIRITUAL COURAGE

5) THE INSTITUTION OF THE EUCHARIST

LORD, GRANT ME THE GRACE OF LOVE OF OUR EUCHARISTIC LORD

Don't be fooled by hate cults that call this idolatry.

 

[mjrhealth]

Again can Mary save you, can she give you life, praying to saints what does it do for your salvation, repetitive prayer.

Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

If it does not Exalt God it is not from God, all the Glory and honour is His, not given to any man nor church( man made)

In all His Love

 

[epostle1]

There is no one here anti church, we just never signed up to mans church, when we came to Christ and gave our lives to Him, we became His Church. See teh Lords Church is something you become, not something you attend, if it where not so how could you become His bride.??

In all His gracious patients and love

But you are anti-church. That's why you can't answer my question. You don't agree with anybody. A "church" founded 10 or 20 years ago, that has no valid bishops and no sacrifice, is not, by definition, a church. I dare you to tell me the MAN that founded your "church". Anti-Catholics persecute, misrepresent, distort, and lie about my faith "In all His gracious patients and love". I'm not saying you are not saved, I'm saying some people are gullible for swallowing down whole every lie ever printed against the Catholic Church, and propagate these lies in the name of Jesus. If I have misrepresented you or any churches beliefs, quote and correct me. We don't make up whole ministries that bash Protestants the way millions of hate cults do to us. Jackkk Chickkk is a hate cultist. Dave Hunt is a hate cultist. There are legions of them. They breed a sick mentality and those who gobble up that trash show it in some of their posts.

Again can Mary save you, can she give you life, praying to saints what does it do for your salvation, repetitive prayer.

Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

If it does not Exalt God it is not from God, all the Glory and honour is His, not given to any man nor church( man made)

In all His Love

Mary, repetition, prayer to saints, and the delusion that any prayer does not honor God. That's 4 subjects. One "loving" misrepresentation at a time please.

 

[Axehead]

Valid sacrifice? Jesus is the "once for all sacrifice". I know, I know, you're talking about the Eucharist.

Your mention about "hate" and "bashing" has got to be the most ironic statement you have made as a representative of the Roman Catholic Church. Not only is it ironic, but it is disgusting.

You are playing the "emotionalism card", again Kepha. Just thought I would bring that to your attention.

 

[mjrhealth]

Whos speaking against the CC church never mentioned it, dont like any religion, is it not written,

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

or

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And yes I should mention the name of the man who institued our Lords Church, " Jesus Christ"

ct 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

We are to walk in the spirit, to be taught by the spirirt, to abide in Christ so that He will abide in us. has not Jesus said," it is finished", so why do we keep trying to drag it out ??

Did he not say,

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

No one can show you God but Jesus, why do you carry such a heavy burden, there is only one who save, the man "Christ Jesus", who is not dead but lives for ever, not reborn once a year, nor die once a year, it happened once for ever.

In All His Love

 

[neophyte]

Matt.18:15-18 best desribes you who are so anti-church-Matt. 18:15-18 , in that verse, one can almost hear the note of amazement in Christ's voice when He said: "If he refuses to listen even to the church ..... [ implying that for someone to ignore the church--His Church-- would be the height of stupidity and foolishness] myrhealth and Axehead, that preceding verse was written specificaly for you and others that believe as you believe.

Kepha31, excellent posts.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi kepha,

mystery means something that is known by divine revelation, which makes it beyond human understanding and thus must be accepted with faith because reason fails to define it alone.

That depends on one's definition of 'reason'.

'Divine revelation' is not 'beyond human understanding', unless the person receiving it has not received the Holy Spirit first - and then it will make limited sense - perhaps no sense at all.

Herein lies the difficulty for the many unsaved members of the Roman Catholic Church, many of whom are unlikely to have received the Holy Spirit seeing the gospel is not preached properly to them. Not even the gospel which Peter preached, is preached to them.

As a result, aaaaany doctrine at all can be fabricated upon some wisp of scripture or myth, and the dear flock members bamboozled by the claims of fideism, even though there is no such thing in scripture. And this all in the name of - well, not Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

With regard to 'reason', a person who has heard God's call to faith in His death, Acts 20:28, for all sin, Heb 10:14 and the resurrection of Jesus Christ Matt 28:6, (that we may have the hope of our eternal life 1 John 2:25 through faith in His risen life ), receives the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith, as earnest of sonship of God the Father, Rom 8:15, Eph 1:5, and immediately communicates with Him by this eternal connection. It is unreasonable to imply that God cannot make Himself understood to His own children Heb 2:10 -14 through the Holy Spirit, and, unreasonable to imply that His children cannot understand their Father in heaven.

May all who read understand that God wants a direct relationship with you personally.

Isaiah 40:11 [background=rgb(255,255,255)]He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: [/background][background=rgb(255,255,255)]he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.[/background][background=rgb(255,255,255)] [/background]

 

[neophyte]

dragonfly, you wrote: "That depends on one's definition of 'reason', Oh! by the way,one more thing that you seem to misunderatand and that is that the Catholic Church which is based on the Bible and the apostles, is the only Church or church that was ever fortunate to receive the Holy Spirit and that was at Pentecost, I don't care if you come back at me and say that the other 120 also received the H S because they all taught the very same Apostolic/Catholic Doctrine, My reference is from Holy Scripture ,read here; Romans 16:17-18, and 1 Cor.1:10 , no way did your religious ancestors accept those Words from the Holy Bible , nope, they only protested against them.

You also have a mistaken notion of the Catholic term mystery. A mystery is not something about which can’t know anything, but something about which we can’t know everything.
God gave us brains and expects us to use them to understand the mysteries of faith, to the extent such understanding is possible. That total comprehension isn’t possible doesn’t mean you have to "check your brains at the door" anymore than failure to entirely g.asp quantum physics does.
There’s no real opposition between truths of reason and truths of faith, only an apparent one. When scientists propose as fact what is only an unproven hypothesis, or when theologians mistake their personal opinions for articles of divine revelation, the impression is left there’s a conflict between the two realms, but this isn’t the case. It only appears to be so because someone has erred.
Faith tell us more than we could know by reason alone, but it can’t contradict reason. Furthermore, we can use our reason to better understand our faith. In fact, that’s a classic definition of theology: Faith seeking understanding.

 

[Foreigner]

Still waiting on an answer Neophyte:

"But getting back to the actual topic of this thread:
You were also one of the people here who said the Rosary was for the edification of Christ.
I have posted what your Church says about the Rosary - directly from the Catholic Catechism - and you again ignore it:

"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary."[sup]517[/sup]

Mungo fled, calling it "nonsense."
How about you?"

 

[neophyte]

is it required that Catholics be devoted to Mary? I will let a Catholic apologist answer that question.
Devotion to the Blessed Virgin
Protestant Poets and Devotion to Mary Devotion to Mary is so beautiful a practice and fits in so ... doctrine and practice regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, let me state two truths that the Church teaches ... that Catholics adore Mary. (2) Jesus Christ alone is our Mediator of Redemption. He alone, by his supreme

 

[epostle1]

Still waiting on an answer Neophyte:

"But getting back to the actual topic of this thread:
You were also one of the people here who said the Rosary was for the edification of Christ.
I have posted what your Church says about the Rosary - directly from the Catholic Catechism - and you again ignore it:

"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary."[sup]517[/sup]

Mungo fled, calling it "nonsense."
How about you?"

Catholics don't read the catechism the same way as a Muslim reads the Qu'ran, which is not how to read the catechism. No amount of information will alter a preconceived notion. You refuse to even entertain the possibility that you are mistaken about the rosary. So why bother answering you?

Hi kepha,



That depends on one's definition of 'reason'.

'Divine revelation' is not 'beyond human understanding', unless the person receiving it has not received the Holy Spirit first - and then it will make limited sense - perhaps no sense at all.

Herein lies the difficulty for the many unsaved members of the Roman Catholic Church, many of whom are unlikely to have received the Holy Spirit seeing the gospel is not preached properly to them. Not even the gospel which Peter preached, is preached to them.

As a result, aaaaany doctrine at all can be fabricated upon some wisp of scripture or myth, and the dear flock members bamboozled by the claims of fideism, even though there is no such thing in scripture. And this all in the name of - well, not Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

With regard to 'reason', a person who has heard God's call to faith in His death, Acts 20:28, for all sin, Heb 10:14 and the resurrection of Jesus Christ Matt 28:6, (that we may have the hope of our eternal life 1 John 2:25 through faith in His risen life ), receives the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith, as earnest of sonship of God the Father, Rom 8:15, Eph 1:5, and immediately communicates with Him by this eternal connection. It is unreasonable to imply that God cannot make Himself understood to His own children Heb 2:10 -14 through the Holy Spirit, and, unreasonable to imply that His children cannot understand their Father in heaven.

May all who read understand that God wants a direct relationship with you personally.

Isaiah 40:11 [background=rgb(255,255,255)]He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: [/background][background=rgb(255,255,255)]he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.[/background][background=rgb(255,255,255)] [/background]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcH_5Iecu5s&feature=related​