What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[rwb]

The first recorded outpouring of holy spirit occurred on Pentecost of 33 CE sir. In agreement with what you said, only those endowed (baptized) with holy spirit will go to heaven. John was dead prior. Do you recognize that onIly those of the new covenant will go to heaven Rw? If you do, then you will realize John was not there when the new covenant was offered, nor went into effect either.

Actually Bob, the first time we read of the Spirit being given, was when Jesus breathed on His disciples before He ascended to heaven.

John 20:20-22 (KJV) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The New Covenant was ordained according to promise from the foundation of the world. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world according to the Covenant promise. Even the Old Covenant saints of Israel, as well as the faithful who lived and died before there was a nation, consider Noah, Job, Abraham, just to name a few. All who are saved are saved by the New Covenant that is ordained through the blood of the Lamb from the foundation of the world. Even though Christ must literally come to make the New Covenant of effect, according to promise of God, all who believe in Christ are saved whether they lived and died before the coming of the promised Messiah, or after the first advent of Christ coming to earth.

John is shown a vision of the New Covenant through the blood of the Lamb ordained in heaven before creation. This passage below is a depiction of the New Covenant that would be fulfilled through Christ according to promise. We're being shown that one, who alone is worthy, would come and through His shed blood God would save a people for Himself out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation upon the earth.

Revelation 5:6-10 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

All the names of those who will be saved are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the book taken out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne. All that dwell upon the earth will worship the dragon through the beast whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The promise for entering into His rest, through the New Covenant in His blood which is the Gospel, was preached to the Old Covenant nation. The prophets foretelling the Messiah Who would come will redeem them from sin and death IF they believe. Without faith none will be saved.

Hebrews 4:1-10 (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The Gospel, according to promise, ordained in heaven before creation, that The Messiah/Christ/Savior of the world would come to redeem all who are of faith from sin and give them everlasting life through Him, God preached to Abraham, telling him, "In thee shall all nations be blessed." Whosoever, from all the nations of the earth who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:7-9 (KJV) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

John the Baptist knew that Christ was the promised Lamb of God who takes away sin when he saw Christ. He knew Jesus was the Son of God, because the Holy Spirit in Him revealed this truth to him. When Peter proclaimed that Christ is the Son of the living God, Christ blessed him, because he could not have known this without the revelation from the Father.

John 1:29 (KJV) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Matthew 16:16-17 (KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

All of those Old Covenant faithful saints, and both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith after the advent of Christ's cross and resurrection are of the New Covenant body of believers, and after death are now in heaven with the Lord a living (spirit) soul. The Old Covenant faithful saints could not ascend a spiritual body to heaven until Christ literally came and fulfilled the New Covenant ordained from the foundation of the world.

John sees a vision of all the Old Covenant faithful saints under the altar. To be under the altar means they believed the prophecy of The Messiah Who would come to redeem them through His blood from death, but none could ascend to heaven until after Christ went to heaven to prepare a place for them. Then just as Christ promised, through His Spirit He went into that part of the grave where these Old Covenant faithful were waiting for Christ to come, and He took them, as living (spirit) soul with Him to heaven, where they will be until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, and the seventh angel begins to sound that time on this earth shall be no more.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John 14:1-4 (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rwb]

No sir, in fact Jesus did not ascend to heaven for aprox 40 days after his resurrection. The first resurrection are those who are resurrected to heaven after Jesus became King. We do believe it has already occurred. They alone overcome the second death upon their resurrection as seen, whereas the rest of us will not come to life until the end of the thousand years. And we will never be immortal, as those of the first resurrection are.

Christ did not ascend physically to heaven for appx 40 days Bob. Because when He ascended bodily toward heaven, He was seen by His disciples being taken up until a cloud blocked Him from their sight. Just as He went in physical form to heaven, so too He will return in the same physical form.

Acts 1:9 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (KJV) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Through His Spirit Christ ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He died. Otherwise, it makes no sense for Christ to say, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Commend is defined - to place alongside, i.e. present (food, truth); by implication, to deposit (as a trust or for protection):—allege, commend, commit (the keeping of), put forth, set before

 

[rwb]

The first resurrection are those who are resurrected to heaven after Jesus became King. We do believe it has already occurred. They alone overcome the second death upon their resurrection as seen, whereas the rest of us will not come to life until the end of the thousand years. And we will never be immortal, as those of the first resurrection are.

This shows you have no understanding of the "first resurrection" Bob. Christ received dominion, glory, and a Kingdom that is everlasting and shall never pass away, nor be destroyed when He ascended to the Father in heaven after His resurrection. Your doctrine denies the spiritual Kingdom Christ came to earth with. The Kingdom He proves by casting out devils, the Kingdom that is not seen with physical sight because it is within you, the Kingdom that is not NOW of this world, but shall come down from heaven as the holy city new Jerusalem, as a bride adorned for her Husband. The Kingdom Christ came in can only be known, and entered when we are born again of His Spirit from above. That is why the "first resurrection" mean the faithful have come from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, to being spiritually alive through His Spirit in us. That's why the Kingdom of God NOW, is not physically or of this world, but it is in you. When we die the living Spirit in us takes us from this physical earth spiritually, to the Kingdom of God that is NOW in heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All this passage says is that Christ, by His atoning blood, fulfilled all the Levitical Law required from the Old Covenant. Nowhere in Scripture shall be found the atoning work of Christ through His blood must be poured out in heaven for His work to be accomplished. That is indeed bringing extra-biblical opinion into Scripture.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The New Covenant through the blood of Christ is of force after His death. It does not say the New Covenant through Christ's blood will not be accomplished until He pours out His blood in heaven.

Well as I gave you teh passage from Hebrews that sahowed Jesus entered in to teh holiest of all in heaven with His own blood, that sttles it for me as it should for you.

YOur commentary is all conjecture considering Jesus gave but one reason why Mary was not allowed to touch Him- He had not yet ascended to the Father. that was no longer the case when He told Thomas to touch Him. that is what the bible says.

You can reject Jesus fulfilling the high priestly role in pouring th eblood, but it gives you a tainted view of SCripture and leaves you to add the kind of commentary you did in post 48 which has no biblical support.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So why do you think it was Jesus who went back to heaven, rather than the son God sent sir? Jesus returned to his previous life, as his assignment was completed. Jesus of course is not equal to god as well. Your altered version of the Bible was altered deliberately. The reason behind it is quite obvious of course.

Because Jesus is the Son of God.

Teh one who emptied himself of His divinity, took on the form of man when THE Holy Spirit conceived in Mary's Womb, th eone who lived , died and rose again, is also the one who went back to heaven. It was not another person from the one who died and rose that ascended into heaven sir.

 

[rwb]

Well as I gave you teh passage from Hebrews that sahowed Jesus entered in to teh holiest of all in heaven with His own blood, that sttles it for me as it should for you.

YOur commentary is all conjecture considering Jesus gave but one reason why Mary was not allowed to touch Him- He had not yet ascended to the Father. that was no longer the case when He told Thomas to touch Him. that is what the bible says.

You can reject Jesus fulfilling the high priestly role in pouring th eblood, but it gives you a tainted view of SCripture and leaves you to add the kind of commentary you did in post 48 which has no biblical support.

No Ron, the passage says Christ entered BY His own blood, not WITH His own blood. That was His blood poured out when He gave His life a sacrifice for sin while on earth. You continue to bring extra-biblical doctrine into the Word of God.

Hebrews 9:12 (KJV) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Actually Bob, the first time we read of the Spirit being given, was when Jesus breathed on His disciples before He ascended to heaven.

John 20:20-22 (KJV) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Actually Bob, the first time we read of the Spirit being given, was when Jesus breathed on His disciples before He ascended to heaven.

John 20:20-22 (KJV) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I definitely see what you are saying RW, and you may very well be correct sir. It may very well be that those present, which seems to exclude Thomas, received the holy spirit at that time. Of course Jesus had not yet presented his sacrifice to Jehovah, as he had not yet ascended to heaven, so we believe the covenant went into force when accepted by God, and then He outpoured the Holy Spirit upon His congregation, thus signifying His acceptance of the covenant, happening on Pentecost of 33 CE. Thank you for the enlightenment sir, I had not made any connection with that prior. You definitely have scriptural support, and it seems rather clear.

It may have been a limited giving of holy spirit, as it seemed to be given to them for the aspect of forgiving sins. If that was the case, then they would receive it fully there when the disciples were gathered on Pentecost.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Christ did not ascend physically to heaven for appx 40 days Bob. Because when He ascended bodily toward heaven, He was seen by His disciples being taken up until a cloud blocked Him from their sight. Just as He went in physical form to heaven, so too He will return in the same physical form.

Acts 1:9 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (KJV) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Through His Spirit Christ ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He died. Otherwise, it makes no sense for Christ to say, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Commend is defined - to place alongside, i.e. present (food, truth); by implication, to deposit (as a trust or for protection):—allege, commend, commit (the keeping of), put forth, set before

He was seen, but did not ascend bodily but returned to his previous life and form. He did appear bodily after his resurrection, not in the same body that was sacrificed, therefore not ever recognized physically. But unless the Bible is in error sir, flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly Kingdom sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This shows you have no understanding of the "first resurrection" Bob. Christ received dominion, glory, and a Kingdom that is everlasting and shall never pass away, nor be destroyed when He ascended to the Father in heaven after His resurrection. Your doctrine denies the spiritual Kingdom Christ came to earth with. The Kingdom He proves by casting out devils, the Kingdom that is not seen with physical sight because it is within you, the Kingdom that is not NOW of this world, but shall come down from heaven as the holy city new Jerusalem, as a bride adorned for her Husband. The Kingdom Christ came in can only be known, and entered when we are born again of His Spirit from above. That is why the "first resurrection" mean the faithful have come from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, to being spiritually alive through His Spirit in us. That's why the Kingdom of God NOW, is not physically or of this world, but it is in you. When we die the living Spirit in us takes us from this physical earth spiritually, to the Kingdom of God that is NOW in heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

We disagree RW

 

[Robert Gwin]

Because Jesus is the Son of God.

Teh one who emptied himself of His divinity, took on the form of man when THE Holy Spirit conceived in Mary's Womb, th eone who lived , died and rose again, is also the one who went back to heaven. It was not another person from the one who died and rose that ascended into heaven sir.

So was the only-begotten son that He sent sir. They both did not exist concurrently. I believe the resurrected Jesus was the one sent sir, not the human who gave his life, although he retained his memories. It is a difficult topic, as although Jesus was still the same being that was sent, but now as a human, he did not have full understanding of who he was until his baptism, if that makes any sense to you. Jesus returned to heaven as the being who was sent, not as the being he became, but still retaining full knowledge as he was that being that was sent, does this make any sense to you Ron?

 

[rwb]

I definitely see what you are saying RW, and you may very well be correct sir. It may very well be that those present, which seems to exclude Thomas, received the holy spirit at that time. Of course Jesus had not yet presented his sacrifice to Jehovah, as he had not yet ascended to heaven, so we believe the covenant went into force when accepted by God, and then He outpoured the Holy Spirit upon His congregation, thus signifying His acceptance of the covenant, happening on Pentecost of 33 CE. Thank you for the enlightenment sir, I had not made any connection with that prior. You definitely have scriptural support, and it seems rather clear.

Bob, we are enlightened through the Spirit in us. All believers are instruments used by God instructed to show truth from Scripture. I'm delighted that the Scripture through the Spirit gave you better understanding. Praise God, give Him all glory.

Pentecost marked the beginning of the universal Church on earth with power. The Spirit had always been with selected men of God, but Pentecost proves the spiritual Kingdom of God through the universal Church will now exponentially grow into an innumerable multitude as the Holy Spirit takes up residence within the spirit of men/women of faith throughout the world. Prior to Pentecost the work of the Holy Spirit had been mainly through one little nation, chosen by God to be a light to the world.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Covenant through the atoning blood of Christ was of force from the foundation of the world. That's when the works of God, the Covenant of Redemption in heaven were finished according to promise. Scripture tells us that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In this way all the faithful saints of old are included in the Covenant according to promise. Since every promise of God is always yes, and amen, even men of faith like Noah, Job, and Abraham and others are included in the Covenant promise for a Messiah/Savior to come and redeem them.

This is the vision John was given of the Covenant ordained according to promise in heaven from the foundation of the world. John is shown a vision of the works of God to redeem a people for Himself through Christ, the Lamb slain. I believe the book the Lamb takes from the One sitting on the throne, is the Lamb's Book of Life with the names written there of all who will be saved from the foundation of the world.

The book must be unsealed to reveal all who shall be saved, because they are the lost whom Christ came to seek and find. (Lu 19:10)

Revelation 5:1-5 (KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 5:6-8 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

From the beginning all who dwell upon the earth will worship the dragon through his beasts and false prophets. They are the dead, who will stand before God at the GWTJ, and because their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Gospel was preached from the beginning. It isn't always clearly understood in passages like Gen 3:15 ..."enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel". But through the abundance of Scripture, we understand this speaks of the Covenant of Redemption through the slain Lamb ordained in heaven from the foundation of the world. We understand through Scripture that even Abraham heard the Gospel. I believe that all Old Testament saints like Job, and Noah heard the Gospel. That's why Job can proclaim, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." How could Job know this unless hearing the Gospel?

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Hebrews 4:2-4 (KJV) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

 

[rwb]

We disagree RW

Bob, it's easy to say "we disagree", but unless you explain why, what is accomplished by declaring this? If you believe I am in error, how have you helped me to better understand unless you show why I am in error?

 

[rwb]

He was seen, but did not ascend bodily but returned to his previous life and form. He did appear bodily after his resurrection, not in the same body that was sacrificed, therefore not ever recognized physically. But unless the Bible is in error sir, flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly Kingdom sir.

Yes Bob, Christ was bodily resurrected after His death. If the spirit that gives man life is not in His body, His body could not have been shown alive after death. The tomb where Christ was buried was empty, this proves He was resurrected in the same body that He died in. As further proof, Christ displayed His nail pierced hands, and marks from the spear in His side to prove the body that arose from the dead was indeed the body Christ died with. This is the same body He was seen in for 40 days before ascending to heaven. Just because flesh and blood and corruption cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven, does not mean that Christ in physical form was not seen going up in the clouds to heaven. The body of Christ would have become immortal (alive forever) and incorruptible (never die again) when He was resurrected from the grave, just as the body of every believer will also be changed when the last trump sounds. The passage in 1Cor 15:51-54 says nothing about man's blood needing to be changed, only the mortal, corruptible body of flesh and blood needing to be made immortal and incorruptible. The body needs flesh & blood to have life, because life is in the blood, so if our flesh becomes immortal and incorruptible our blood also is.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

[rwb]

So was the only-begotten son that He sent sir. They both did not exist concurrently. I believe the resurrected Jesus was the one sent sir, not the human who gave his life, although he retained his memories. It is a difficult topic, as although Jesus was still the same being that was sent, but now as a human, he did not have full understanding of who he was until his baptism, if that makes any sense to you. Jesus returned to heaven as the being who was sent, not as the being he became, but still retaining full knowledge as he was that being that was sent, does this make any sense to you Ron?

Yes, Bob, Jesus, the only begotten Son of the Father, did indeed have a body making Him human, but also the Spirit that gave Him supernatural life, making Him One with God, the Father Who is Spirit. The Spirit that gave Christ physical life is God.

1 John 5:6-9 (KJV) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No Ron, the passage says Christ entered BY His own blood, not WITH His own blood. That was His blood poured out when He gave His life a sacrifice for sin while on earth. You continue to bring extra-biblical doctrine into the Word of God.

Hebrews 9:12 (KJV) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Yes and the earthly high priests entered by the blood of the passover lamb.

Heb. 9:

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

YOu make a big case over "by" vs. "with" and ignore the bigger picture! The high priest entered with blood, Jesus entered with blood.

The high priest poured the blood on the mercy seat, Jesus poured the blood on the mercy seat! Jesus became a high priest verse 11. go back and read the rules for the priest pouring the blood on teh mercy seat. Hebrews declares Jesus did what the type from the human priests did in heaven.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So was the only-begotten son that He sent sir. They both did not exist concurrently. I believe the resurrected Jesus was the one sent sir, not the human who gave his life, although he retained his memories. It is a difficult topic, as although Jesus was still the same being that was sent, but now as a human, he did not have full understanding of who he was until his baptism, if that makes any sense to you. Jesus returned to heaven as the being who was sent, not as the being he became, but still retaining full knowledge as he was that being that was sent, does this make any sense to you Ron?

It is only a difficult topic when one has been indoctrinated in false teachings.

But let me explain to you in simple modern English. Yes Jesus became the only begotten son of god at the moment of conception. That is a title ADDED to Him not making Him another person.

Teh God who left heaven and emptied himself took on the form of a human- from conception to death. IOW He clothed Himself in humanity. He knew who he was at least by the time He confronted the elders and it was the same person He was in heaven. That is SCripture sir.

And no, your canned Watchtower definition makes no sense!

 

[rwb]

Yes and the earthly high priests entered by the blood of the passover lamb.

Heb. 9:

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

YOu make a big case over "by" vs. "with" and ignore the bigger picture! The high priest entered with blood, Jesus entered with blood.

The high priest poured the blood on the mercy seat, Jesus poured the blood on the mercy seat! Jesus became a high priest verse 11. go back and read the rules for the priest pouring the blood on teh mercy seat. Hebrews declares Jesus did what the type from the human priests did in heaven.

Ron, you don't seem to accept or perhaps believe that Christ, through His atoning blood did away with the need to make an offering with the blood of the sacrificial animal again and again. This He did ONCE when He offered up Himself. By giving of Himself once through His atoning blood on the cross, the Son is consecrated (finish, fulfil, make perfect) FOREVER.

Hebrews 7:27-28 (KJV) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Christ need not go to heaven with His blood, because He has already given His blood through His cross ONCE, and need not offer up His blood again. Because His atoning blood at Calvary satisfied, and put to end the old law forever.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ron, you don't seem to accept or perhaps believe that Christ, through His atoning blood did away with the need to make an offering with the blood of the sacrificial animal again and again. This He did ONCE when He offered up Himself. By giving of Himself once through His atoning blood on the cross, the Son is consecrated (finish, fulfil, make perfect) FOREVER.

Hebrews 7:27-28 (KJV) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Christ need not go to heaven with His blood, because He has already given His blood through His cross ONCE, and need not offer up His blood again. Because His atoning blood at Calvary satisfied, and put to end the old law forever.

Well I do believe that His blood killed the need for animal blood.
And I do believe in the finished work of the cross and eternal security because of HIs blood.
And I also know that OT realities were also types and figures and that the high priest entering into the holiest of all to pour lambs blood, was a historic reality was also a type of what Jesus did as it says in Hebrew.

After Jesus resurrection and before the encounter with the disciples with
Thomas there, Jesus went to heaven, went into the heavenly temple, went into the holiest of all there and poured his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for which the earthly mercy seat is fashioned after. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Your last sentence is irrelevant for Scripture tells us Jesus went in to the heavenly holiest with His blood. He poured it once. I am not going to get into the hows and physics of it all for SCripture simply tells us what Jesus did. That should be enough for all of u9s.

 

[rwb]

Well I do believe that His blood killed the need for animal blood.
And I do believe in the finished work of the cross and eternal security because of HIs blood.
And I also know that OT realities were also types and figures and that the high priest entering into the holiest of all to pour lambs blood, was a historic reality was also a type of what Jesus did as it says in Hebrew.

After Jesus resurrection and before the encounter with the disciples with
Thomas there, Jesus went to heaven, went into the heavenly temple, went into the holiest of all there and poured his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for which the earthly mercy seat is fashioned after. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Your last sentence is irrelevant for Scripture tells us Jesus went in to the heavenly holiest with His blood. He poured it once. I am not going to get into the hows and physics of it all for SCripture simply tells us what Jesus did. That should be enough for all of u9s.

Do you understand that Christ was according to promise is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Do you understand this Covenant according to God's promise was enacted in heaven from the foundation of the world?

Here is the vision of this Covenant, according to promise being enacted in heaven before creation.

Revelation 5:1-7 (KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This Covenant according to promise Christ fulfilled with His blood shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ literally became the slain Lamb enacted according to promise in heaven from before the foundation of the world. Christ need not go to heaven with His blood, because He has already given His blood through His cross ONCE and need not offer up His blood again. Because His atoning blood at Calvary satisfied and put to end the old law forever.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Bob, we are enlightened through the Spirit in us. All believers are instruments used by God instructed to show truth from Scripture. I'm delighted that the Scripture through the Spirit gave you better understanding. Praise God, give Him all glory.

Pentecost marked the beginning of the universal Church on earth with power. The Spirit had always been with selected men of God, but Pentecost proves the spiritual Kingdom of God through the universal Church will now exponentially grow into an innumerable multitude as the Holy Spirit takes up residence within the spirit of men/women of faith throughout the world. Prior to Pentecost the work of the Holy Spirit had been mainly through one little nation, chosen by God to be a light to the world.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Covenant through the atoning blood of Christ was of force from the foundation of the world. That's when the works of God, the Covenant of Redemption in heaven were finished according to promise. Scripture tells us that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In this way all the faithful saints of old are included in the Covenant according to promise. Since every promise of God is always yes, and amen, even men of faith like Noah, Job, and Abraham and others are included in the Covenant promise for a Messiah/Savior to come and redeem them.

This is the vision John was given of the Covenant ordained according to promise in heaven from the foundation of the world. John is shown a vision of the works of God to redeem a people for Himself through Christ, the Lamb slain. I believe the book the Lamb takes from the One sitting on the throne, is the Lamb's Book of Life with the names written there of all who will be saved from the foundation of the world.

The book must be unsealed to reveal all who shall be saved, because they are the lost whom Christ came to seek and find. (Lu 19:10)

Revelation 5:1-5 (KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 5:6-8 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

From the beginning all who dwell upon the earth will worship the dragon through his beasts and false prophets. They are the dead, who will stand before God at the GWTJ, and because their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Gospel was preached from the beginning. It isn't always clearly understood in passages like Gen 3:15 ..."enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel". But through the abundance of Scripture, we understand this speaks of the Covenant of Redemption through the slain Lamb ordained in heaven from the foundation of the world. We understand through Scripture that even Abraham heard the Gospel. I believe that all Old Testament saints like Job, and Noah heard the Gospel. That's why Job can proclaim, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." How could Job know this unless hearing the Gospel?

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Hebrews 4:2-4 (KJV) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Yes sir, the birth of the Christian faith happened on that Pentecost. The word goes forth from those disciples, and now that we are in the last days, being gathered back together after the apostasy, Isa 2:2,3, with Jesus crowned King entering us into the last days Mat 24:3; he has fed us through the faithful slave he assigned until his return. Mat 24:45-47.