What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[Robert Gwin]

Bob, it's easy to say "we disagree", but unless you explain why, what is accomplished by declaring this? If you believe I am in error, how have you helped me to better understand unless you show why I am in error?

Rw, you are 100% right and I am thankful that you brought that to my attention sir, and I give you the humblest of apologies for my not making more effort to make full proof of my ministry 2 Tim 4:5

I simply stated without scriptural reasoning my understanding of what was to come, mostly because it is a deep subject to understand, and a lengthy one at that. We will take it slowly, and I will try to explain it step by step.

The topic is the first resurrection, so while we discuss this, keep this in mind as our theme, but it plays in heavily to the theme of the Bible R, which is this: The vindication of Jehovah's Sovereignty and the fulfillment of His purpose for the earth by means of the Kingdom under Christ, the promised offspring. Let's start at the starting point, what happened to make it necessary for God's Sovereignty to be vindicated?

Because this will take many days, and being so difficult to track back through our conversations, might I suggest you copy our conversations and keep them on file, so our next steps will make sense. Thank you RW both for correcting my behavior, and being willing to listen, learn, and share sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes Bob, Christ was bodily resurrected after His death. If the spirit that gives man life is not in His body, His body could not have been shown alive after death. The tomb where Christ was buried was empty, this proves He was resurrected in the same body that He died in. As further proof, Christ displayed His nail pierced hands, and marks from the spear in His side to prove the body that arose from the dead was indeed the body Christ died with. This is the same body He was seen in for 40 days before ascending to heaven. Just because flesh and blood and corruption cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven, does not mean that Christ in physical form was not seen going up in the clouds to heaven. The body of Christ would have become immortal (alive forever) and incorruptible (never die again) when He was resurrected from the grave, just as the body of every believer will also be changed when the last trump sounds. The passage in 1Cor 15:51-54 says nothing about man's blood needing to be changed, only the mortal, corruptible body of flesh and blood needing to be made immortal and incorruptible. The body needs flesh & blood to have life, because life is in the blood, so if our flesh becomes immortal and incorruptible our blood also is.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Think of the ramifications of Jesus taking back the sacrifice. The sacrifice bought back what Adam lost. Adam lost life forever, Jesus lost life forever. When sacrifices are given, they are given to God, no one gives them back. The mere fact that not one of his intimate associates recognized him, should be enough evidence that he was not resurrected in the same body. Like all angels who are sent to and appear to men, Jesus took on physical form, and since he was never recognized physically, he logically appeared in a different physical body each time he materialized. The Bible states that God resurrected him Acts 2:32; and He raised him a spirit 1 Cor 15:44-50; 1 Pet 3:18. And no doubt you are quite aware that flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly Kingdom, and that those who enter heaven will be as the angels are. Mk 12:25

I started to tell you we disagree, but I know better now sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, Bob, Jesus, the only begotten Son of the Father, did indeed have a body making Him human, but also the Spirit that gave Him supernatural life, making Him One with God, the Father Who is Spirit. The Spirit that gave Christ physical life is God.

1 John 5:6-9 (KJV) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Jesus was the exact equivalent of Adam Rw, a perfect human son of God.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .“The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) . . .For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

 

[rwb]

The vindication of Jehovah's Sovereignty and the fulfillment of His purpose for the earth by means of the Kingdom under Christ, the promised offspring. Let's start at the starting point, what happened to make it necessary for God's Sovereignty to be vindicated?

This you will need to explain from Scripture Bob. Why would you believe it "necessary for God's Sovereignty to be vindicated"?

 

[Robert Gwin]

It is only a difficult topic when one has been indoctrinated in false teachings.

But let me explain to you in simple modern English. Yes Jesus became the only begotten son of god at the moment of conception. That is a title ADDED to Him not making Him another person.

Teh God who left heaven and emptied himself took on the form of a human- from conception to death. IOW He clothed Himself in humanity. He knew who he was at least by the time He confronted the elders and it was the same person He was in heaven. That is SCripture sir.

And no, your canned Watchtower definition makes no sense!

Jesus was God's only-begotten before he was sent sir Jn 3:16. Why? Because he was the very first creation of God, the firstborn of every creature. Since nothing else existed besides God, and there had to be a beginning if you are going to create, the Word was the beginning Ron. And since no one could assist in the creation, then it was God's hands who created Jesus exclusively. The Bible states that after that all things were brought into existence for Jesus, and through Jesus, even calling him the master craftsman. Pro 8:30; Col 1:16

 

[rwb]

Think of the ramifications of Jesus taking back the sacrifice. The sacrifice bought back what Adam lost. Adam lost life forever, Jesus lost life forever. When sacrifices are given, they are given to God, no one gives them back. The mere fact that not one of his intimate associates recognized him, should be enough evidence that he was not resurrected in the same body. Like all angels who are sent to and appear to men, Jesus took on physical form, and since he was never recognized physically, he logically appeared in a different physical body each time he materialized. The Bible states that God resurrected him Acts 2:32; and He raised him a spirit 1 Cor 15:44-50; 1 Pet 3:18. And no doubt you are quite aware that flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly Kingdom, and that those who enter heaven will be as the angels are. Mk 12:25

I started to tell you we disagree, but I know better now sir.

Also Bob, what do you mean "the ramifications of Jesus taking back the sacrifice"?

I don't believe Scripture says that when Christ was physically resurrected, He was a spirit. When He was physically resurrected, He was once more body, with spirit which is a complete living soul. This is why Peter says they were witnesses to the fact that His soul (body & spirit) was not left in the grave. Because it was by His spirit returning to His body after three days that Christ was resurrected to life again.

Acts 2:30-32 (KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The spirit of Christ, which is what gives life to the human body, did depart, (Lu 22:46) and went to heaven for the three days as His body without spirit lay dead in the tomb. But in order for Him to be resurrected a complete living soul again, and return to physical life, He needed both body and spirit. (Gn. 2:7)

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul describes the natural course of all who die in Christ. Our physical body is sown corruptible and shall be raised in incorruption when the last trump sounds. Paul not only shows what shall become of the body of the faithful, but also says that when our natural body of flesh & blood dies, it is raised no more natural, but a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies, without flesh & blood are not created to dwell on the earth. Spiritual bodies inhabit heaven. That's where the spirit in Christ went when His body died, and that's where spirits of faithful saints go alive after our natural body dies. Every spirit returns to God who gave it after our body dies, (Ec. 12:7) but those who die in unbelief, their spirit returns to God without the life-giving Spirit, so unbelievers without life are said to be in silence and darkness after physical death.

Paul is not saying that Christ was raised to earth a spirit. He says that Christ, the last Adam, was made for the purpose of giving life to our spirit. He does this by sending His Spirit to indwell within the spirit of all who are of faith in Christ. Before receiving His Spirit our spirit, without the Holy Spirit in us is spiritually dead in sins. But Christ being made a life-giving spirit, quickens (gives spiritual life) to our spirit. And this life we receive through Him shall never die.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Yes, it is true flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven, nor can mortality and corruption. That's why our body must be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Remember the life of the flesh is in the blood. When our flesh is resurrected to immortality and incorruptible that means our blood is also, or our body of flesh could never have immortal and incorruptible bodies, because there cannot be physical life without blood.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Our spirit is only alive in heaven after physical death through His Holy Spirit in us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you understand that Christ was according to promise is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Do you understand this Covenant according to God's promise was enacted in heaven from the foundation of the world?

Do yoou understand I have written on this in these threads.

Are you saying that the verses you post are another covenant God has made? We know of the covenants God made with Israel and Adam and the Patriarchs. Are you declaring these verses are another covenant?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus was God's only-begotten before he was sent sir Jn 3:16. Why? Because he was the very first creation of God, the firstborn of every creature. Since nothing else existed besides God, and there had to be a beginning if you are going to create, the Word was the beginning Ron. And since no one could assist in the creation, then it was God's hands who created Jesus exclusively. The Bible states that after that all things were brought into existence for Jesus, and through Jesus, even calling him the master craftsman. Pro 8:30; Col 1:16

Sorry. but Jesus was not the first created thing according to the Watchtower lie. The Real Bible does not allow for that kind of reinterpretation of Gods own Words.

And you need to understand why Jesus is called Gods only begotten son. He is the only human that god actually conceived through the Holy Spirit. It refers to Mary's conception. Jesus had a different name in all eternity past and it is not Michael.

 

[rwb]

Do yoou understand I have written on this in these threads.

I don't follow you, so no I am not aware of all you have written in these threads.

Are you saying that the verses you post are another covenant God has made? We know of the covenants God made with Israel and Adam and the Patriarchs. Are you declaring these verses are another covenant?

There has always been only one Covenant that God made with mankind. It was established in heaven from the foundation of the world, and first written in Scripture when God told the serpent that He would put enmity between His seed and the seed of the serpent. Most understand this is prophesy of the Messiah who would come, and though He would be bruised, He would crush the serpent. Some call it the Covenant of Redemption, others call it the New Covenant. There are other promises and a Covenant of Old that God made with the nation of Israel through the biological seeds of Abraham regarding inheritance of land they would dwell in forever IF they kept the Covenant they made with God to be faithful and obedient to Him only. Because they were not faithful to God as they promised, they lost the land of promise after having inherited every promise God made to them.

The New Covenant, the Covenant of Redemption was established in heaven through promise of God. This Covenant written in heaven from the foundation of the world is contingent upon the Son of God being obedient to the Father, and to give His life to ransom fallen man from sin and death. In heaven the Covenant of Redemption was enacted symbolically through the slain Lamb, this symbolized the Son who would come in history to literally fulfill that which was spiritually enacted in heaven before creation. This is the Covenant given to all of humanity and was never limited to one nation. The Covenant of Redemption, the New Covenant planned from the foundation of the world is given through the Seed (Christ) of Abraham, not to seeds (as many). The New Covenant of Redemption was never about inheriting the promised land. Those having part in this Covenant shall inherit the new earth, it was never about receiving the promised land in Canaan.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This you will need to explain from Scripture Bob. Why would you believe it "necessary for God's Sovereignty to be vindicated"?

Sure Rw, I asked you what happened in the garden of Eden, but you didn't answer sir. Perhaps you didn't pick up on it, but satan clearly stated that if Eve ate of the fruit she would be like God knowing good and bad. But really more was implied, correct? When she chose to sin, she chose to become her own god. Of course the same applied to Adam. satan sinned as well, so 3 perfect individuals called into question God's right to rule. Keep in mind the reason why Jehovah chose the path He did to correct it, do you feel He was wise in the path He chose, or would you have done it differently?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Also Bob, what do you mean "the ramifications of Jesus taking back the sacrifice"?

I don't believe Scripture says that when Christ was physically resurrected, He was a spirit. When He was physically resurrected, He was once more body, with spirit which is a complete living soul. This is why Peter says they were witnesses to the fact that His soul (body & spirit) was not left in the grave. Because it was by His spirit returning to His body after three days that Christ was resurrected to life again.

Acts 2:30-32 (KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The spirit of Christ, which is what gives life to the human body, did depart, (Lu 22:46) and went to heaven for the three days as His body without spirit lay dead in the tomb. But in order for Him to be resurrected a complete living soul again, and return to physical life, He needed both body and spirit. (Gn. 2:7)

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Paul describes the natural course of all who die in Christ. Our physical body is sown corruptible and shall be raised in incorruption when the last trump sounds. Paul not only shows what shall become of the body of the faithful, but also says that when our natural body of flesh & blood dies, it is raised no more natural, but a spiritual body. Spiritual bodies, without flesh & blood are not created to dwell on the earth. Spiritual bodies inhabit heaven. That's where the spirit in Christ went when His body died, and that's where spirits of faithful saints go alive after our natural body dies. Every spirit returns to God who gave it after our body dies, (Ec. 12:7) but those who die in unbelief, their spirit returns to God without the life-giving Spirit, so unbelievers without life are said to be in silence and darkness after physical death.

Paul is not saying that Christ was raised to earth a spirit. He says that Christ, the last Adam, was made for the purpose of giving life to our spirit. He does this by sending His Spirit to indwell within the spirit of all who are of faith in Christ. Before receiving His Spirit our spirit, without the Holy Spirit in us is spiritually dead in sins. But Christ being made a life-giving spirit, quickens (gives spiritual life) to our spirit. And this life we receive through Him shall never die.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Yes, it is true flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven, nor can mortality and corruption. That's why our body must be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Remember the life of the flesh is in the blood. When our flesh is resurrected to immortality and incorruptible that means our blood is also, or our body of flesh could never have immortal and incorruptible bodies, because there cannot be physical life without blood.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Our spirit is only alive in heaven after physical death through His Holy Spirit in us.

I don't believe Scripture says that when Christ was physically resurrected, He was a spirit.

If you don't believe it then you don't sir, but out of your own mouth:

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Sorry. but Jesus was not the first created thing according to the Watchtower lie. The Real Bible does not allow for that kind of reinterpretation of Gods own Words.

And you need to understand why Jesus is called Gods only begotten son. He is the only human that god actually conceived through the Holy Spirit. It refers to Mary's conception. Jesus had a different name in all eternity past and it is not Michael.

Every version I know of says it sir, so I believe it. Do you know of any version that does not say Jesus is God's only begotten son? I don't. I know begotten is old english, but most people I know, knows what it means, and I believe you do as well.

 

[rwb]

Sure Rw, I asked you what happened in the garden of Eden, but you didn't answer sir. Perhaps you didn't pick up on it, but satan clearly stated that if Eve ate of the fruit she would be like God knowing good and bad. But really more was implied, correct? When she chose to sin, she chose to become her own god. Of course the same applied to Adam. satan sinned as well, so 3 perfect individuals called into question God's right to rule. Keep in mind the reason why Jehovah chose the path He did to correct it, do you feel He was wise in the path He chose, or would you have done it differently?

Not only did Satan say they would, like God, know good and evil, he also told them they would not die. The not dying part was how Satan deceived them, Bob. If I questioned God's Sovereignty, I would be guilty also.

Do you believe the Creator did not know that sin, and death through sin would need a remedy when He created humans? God's plan for redeeming His creation by sacrificing His Son was ordained according to promise in heaven from the foundation of the world. Since He is the Creator, Almighty God, His will shall be done, and nothing can stop it, nor may anyone accuse Him. God as the Sovereign never needs to vindicate Himself before His created, His ways are not our ways, and being without sin, His ways are perfect in whatever He plans and does.

 

[rwb]

If you don't believe it then you don't sir, but out of your own mouth:

I don't believe Scripture says that when Christ was physically resurrected, He was a spirit. When He was physically resurrected, He was once more body, with spirit which is a complete living soul.

When you quote my words Bob, the conversation will be more fruitful if you quote my words in context. As the context shows, I believe Christ was physically resurrected through his spirit, not that Christ was resurrected "a spirit".

When I quoted Scripture saying "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit", to prove that Christ was not a spirit when He came to earth with human flesh, but through the Holy Spirit in Him, He has the ability to make spiritually alive whomever He will. This is why Paul writes that the last Adam, Christ, became a quickening spirit. Paul is not saying the resurrected Christ was a spirit.

John 5:19-21 (KJV) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't follow you, so no I am not aware of all you have written in these threads.



There has always been only one Covenant that God made with mankind. It was established in heaven from the foundation of the world, and first written in Scripture when God told the serpent that He would put enmity between His seed and the seed of the serpent. Most understand this is prophesy of the Messiah who would come, and though He would be bruised, He would crush the serpent. Some call it the Covenant of Redemption, others call it the New Covenant. There are other promises and a Covenant of Old that God made with the nation of Israel through the biological seeds of Abraham regarding inheritance of land they would dwell in forever IF they kept the Covenant they made with God to be faithful and obedient to Him only. Because they were not faithful to God as they promised, they lost the land of promise after having inherited every promise God made to them.

The New Covenant, the Covenant of Redemption was established in heaven through promise of God. This Covenant written in heaven from the foundation of the world is contingent upon the Son of God being obedient to the Father, and to give His life to ransom fallen man from sin and death. In heaven the Covenant of Redemption was enacted symbolically through the slain Lamb, this symbolized the Son who would come in history to literally fulfill that which was spiritually enacted in heaven before creation. This is the Covenant given to all of humanity and was never limited to one nation. The Covenant of Redemption, the New Covenant planned from the foundation of the world is given through the Seed (Christ) of Abraham, not to seeds (as many). The New Covenant of Redemption was never about inheriting the promised land. Those having part in this Covenant shall inherit the new earth, it was never about receiving the promised land in Canaan.

Well being you are a covenant theology adherent, you think that way.

But the covenant in the garden is not the new covenant. The new covenant is spelled out in Jer. 31:31-34.

And genesis 3 is not a covenant, but a statement of fact. There is nothing in the context to sayi it is a covenant.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Every version I know of says it sir, so I believe it. Do you know of any version that does not say Jesus is God's only begotten son? I don't. I know begotten is old english, but most people I know, knows what it means, and I believe you do as well.

No, only the new world mistranlsation says it.

The word firstborn means heir, in the culture. and :

Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This does not mean at all that Jesus was the first created thing of God. Teh word beginning is "arche" which means ruler.

And begotten is correct. Adam was not begotten by god. The angels were not begotten by god. Jesus when He became a human was begotten by God. But Jesus was already in existence in heaven before He was begotten by god.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not only did Satan say they would, like God, know good and evil, he also told them they would not die. The not dying part was how Satan deceived them, Bob. If I questioned God's Sovereignty, I would be guilty also.

Do you believe the Creator did not know that sin, and death through sin would need a remedy when He created humans? God's plan for redeeming His creation by sacrificing His Son was ordained according to promise in heaven from the foundation of the world. Since He is the Creator, Almighty God, His will shall be done, and nothing can stop it, nor may anyone accuse Him. God as the Sovereign never needs to vindicate Himself before His created, His ways are not our ways, and being without sin, His ways are perfect in whatever He plans and does.

Well Rw, you and I do feel similarly, but there is also a reality sir. A simple basic truth, either God is righteous or He is not. Many people feel He is unrighteous and does not care for us. Think about how this illustration plays into the issue of God's sovereignty RW.

You are in the classroom, and the teacher is putting a somewhat complicated problem on the chalkboard, and one of the students tells the teacher he is clearly not proceeding the correct way to get the answer, so as teacher what is your options? You can send him to the principles office, but does that answer his accusation? Remember as well others are looking on, and many of those will think the student was right and the teacher was just embarrassed that he might be wrong. So the teacher does the best thing, he hands the student the chalk, and takes his chair and observes.

Like you agreed, we asked to become our own god, making our own choices by that act, Jehovah could have offed us, but the entire spirit congregation of God observed this, and being that 1/3 of them joined satan in his rebellion, many may have thought the student was right. So God handed us the chalk, and so far we have made a mess of things, but still the vast majority of humans still think and turn to humans to fix our woes, so Jehovah actually has to let it go to the point of extinction before He acts for our behalf RW Mat 24:22.

Then even still, He is going to remove satan and show us beyond any doubt what living under His godship can do in just 1000 yrs vs the 6k yrs man and satan have had. Do you now understand the real issue my friend?

 

[Robert Gwin]

When you quote my words Bob, the conversation will be more fruitful if you quote my words in context. As the context shows, I believe Christ was physically resurrected through his spirit, not that Christ was resurrected "a spirit".

When I quoted Scripture saying "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit", to prove that Christ was not a spirit when He came to earth with human flesh, but through the Holy Spirit in Him, He has the ability to make spiritually alive whomever He will. This is why Paul writes that the last Adam, Christ, became a quickening spirit. Paul is not saying the resurrected Christ was a spirit.

John 5:19-21 (KJV) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The key lies in what a spirit is Rw, I guess. I gave you all the Scriptural evidence, so now we can rest our case and wait for time to reveal the truth of the matter.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No, only the new world mistranlsation says it.

The word firstborn means heir, in the culture. and :

Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This does not mean at all that Jesus was the first created thing of God. Teh word beginning is "arche" which means ruler.

And begotten is correct. Adam was not begotten by god. The angels were not begotten by god. Jesus when He became a human was begotten by God. But Jesus was already in existence in heaven before He was begotten by god.

I didn't figure you would find one sir, I couldn't myself.

The only difference between the angels and Jesus creation is that Jesus was the manufacturer sir, as well as with Adam and Eve.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I didn't figure you would find one sir, I couldn't myself.

The only difference between the angels and Jesus creation is that Jesus was the manufacturer sir, as well as with Adam and Eve.

Wrong- you reject the fact that in John it says this:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Teh fact that teh Watchtower rewrites the word of God to say "other" here to promote their lie, is damning to them and those who choose to accept it.