What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[rwb]

Well Rw, you and I do feel similarly, but there is also a reality sir. A simple basic truth, either God is righteous or He is not. Many people feel He is unrighteous and does not care for us.

Bob, it really doesn't matter that some people believe God is unrighteous and does not care. That some believe this does not make it true.

Think about how this illustration plays into the issue of God's sovereignty RW.

You are in the classroom, and the teacher is putting a somewhat complicated problem on the chalkboard, and one of the students tells the teacher he is clearly not proceeding the correct way to get the answer, so as teacher what is your options? You can send him to the principles office, but does that answer his accusation? Remember as well others are looking on, and many of those will think the student was right and the teacher was just embarrassed that he might be wrong. So the teacher does the best thing, he hands the student the chalk, and takes his chair and observes.

Your illustration misses the obvious. Teachers are given to teach. How can they teach what they, in your illustration anyway, do not know? Since you seem to be using this illustration to show the purpose for why man fell after being created "very good", and forfeit the promise God gave them for obedience, which was to live forever. Man freely chose to heed the voice of the serpent, rather than to obey God. Why? Do you think that God did not know that if He created man with total autonomy, that man would never submit to another, not even the Creator for life? Of course God knew this, because the plan to redeem man was ordained in heaven before creation. God had an answer for the problem of sin and death through sin that He knew would plague mankind. That's why Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Like you agreed, we asked to become our own god, making our own choices by that act, Jehovah could have offed us, but the entire spirit congregation of God observed this, and being that 1/3 of them joined satan in his rebellion, many may have thought the student was right. So God handed us the chalk, and so far we have made a mess of things, but still the vast majority of humans still think and turn to humans to fix our woes, so Jehovah actually has to let it go to the point of extinction before He acts for our behalf RW Mat 24:22.

Then even still, He is going to remove satan and show us beyond any doubt what living under His godship can do in just 1000 yrs vs the 6k yrs man and satan have had. Do you now understand the real issue my friend?

Since man disobeyed God's command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why did God not simply block the way to this tree, so man could avoid both sin, and death? Why did God create man with the ability to choose to be like God, knowing both good and evil? Why also did God create the serpent to be more subtil, cunning and crafty than any other beast of the field He had created? What was the purpose for God allowing the serpent whom He created to be in the garden with A&E, where he could decieve them?

Genesis 1:24-25 (KJV) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Subtil - Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
6175. עָרוּם aruwm (ʻârûwm)
Search for H6175 in KJVSL; in KJV.
עָרוּם ʻârûwm, aw-room'
passive participle of H6191; cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent, subtil.

One last note, Mt 24:22 is reference to "great tribulation" that would come upon the Church on earth as the saints proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. The end times, these last days. Great tribulation is associated with and is the consequence for faithfully proclaiming the Gospel. But through every trial and great tribulation, nothing has endured long enough to prevent Christ from building His Church spiritually, as the Gospel is preached on earth. The preaching of the Gospel to all nations, that brings great tribulation to the Church, shall not endure, but shall be cut short. There is no other entity on earth that has suffered "great tribulation" such as the Church on earth has, and yet still endures, and is still accomplishing the purpose for which Christ established Her.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 (KJV) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[rwb]

The key lies in what a spirit is Rw, I guess. I gave you all the Scriptural evidence, so now we can rest our case and wait for time to reveal the truth of the matter.

It's difficult to differentiate between the spirit and the soul. Because both mean to possess life. The difference is that the life that comes from man's spirit is what gives created beings our mind. The spirit, as I've said controls every body function of man. Soul also is defined as life, but life as a living soul can be either physical life or spiritual life. When man is physically alive, having body with spirit, he is a living soul. When man is physically dead, his body no longer possesses a spirit because the spirit in man returns to God when our body die. But when a man is physically dead with the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, then our spirit is kept alive through the Holy Spirit, and our spirit leaves our dead body to return to dust, but with our spirit alive through His Spirit in us we go to heaven as living (spirit) soul.



SPIRIT
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. πνεῦμα pneuma (pneûma)
Search for G4151 in KJVSL; in KJV.

πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah - from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

SOUL
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. ψυχή psyche (psychḗ)
Search for G5590 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay' - from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151 (spirit) which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Through the spirit man possesses life, and as long as we continue to have life, whether physical or spiritual, the life we receive through the spirit in us is a living soul. While in physical bodies on earth, man is body + spirit = living soul. When our body no longer has physical life, our spirit + the Holy Spirit = spirit soul in heaven. After physical death apart from His Spirit in us, there is a complete absence of life.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Wrong- you reject the fact that in John it says this:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Teh fact that teh Watchtower rewrites the word of God to say "other" here to promote their lie, is damning to them and those who choose to accept it.

Other is an added word Ron, as most words in the Bible are, which helps in understanding. The reason they put that there, even though it is common sense, is that Jesus did not create himself sir, but he did assist in everything else that was created. Heck you don't even think he was created, but to those of us who do, we fully realize that he did not create himself, Jehovah did.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Bob, it really doesn't matter that some people believe God is unrighteous and does not care. That some believe this does not make it true.

I fully agree RW.

Your illustration misses the obvious.

Personally I thought it made it simple to relate sir. The way I see it, and if you see it differently let me know, God had 3 choices destroy man and forget it. Kill Adam and Eve, and create another pair. And to me His best choice, let them learn for themselves that they cannot make it without God. Although it is quite clear to me, and likely you, many still think man can solve the world's problems. Still putting faith in the world rulers. That is why God has to let it go to the point of extinction, then send His forces.

Since man disobeyed God's command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, why did God not simply block the way to this tree, so man could avoid both sin, and death?

Actually He did sir: (Genesis 3:24) . . .So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

Why did God create man with the ability to choose to be like God, knowing both good and evil?

Gen 1:26, we call it free will.

Why also did God create the serpent to be more subtil, cunning and crafty than any other beast of the field He had created?

Unanswered in the Bible, in my opinion however, that was one of the ramification of the sin. That will have to be answered for us in the future sir.

What was the purpose for God allowing the serpent whom He created to be in the garden with A&E, where he could decieve them?

No reason not to allow satan not to be there until he sinned. Even after his sin he was still allowed access to heaven, even interacting with God Himself, until he was cast to the earth when Jesus was enthroned King.

One last note, Mt 24:22 is reference to "great tribulation" that would come upon the Church on earth as the saints proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. The end times, these last days. Great tribulation is associated with and is the consequence for faithfully proclaiming the Gospel. But through every trial and great tribulation, nothing has endured long enough to prevent Christ from building His Church spiritually, as the Gospel is preached on earth. The preaching of the Gospel to all nations, that brings great tribulation to the Church, shall not endure, but shall be cut short. There is no other entity on earth that has suffered "great tribulation" such as the Church on earth has, and yet still endures, and is still accomplishing the purpose for which Christ established Her.

This tribulation is certainly religious by nature. Things are rapidly falling apart here on earth, we are very close to the start of the tribulation, like the verse says most people will lose their lives, but to save His anointed, God will send His forces, and then the real stuff hits the fan sir. But it won't take Jesus and his powerful angels long to eradicate satans forces, and there will be many survivors that come out of it Rev 7:9, 14

 

[Robert Gwin]

It's difficult to differentiate between the spirit and the soul. Because both mean to possess life. The difference is that the life that comes from man's spirit is what gives created beings our mind. The spirit, as I've said controls every body function of man. Soul also is defined as life, but life as a living soul can be either physical life or spiritual life. When man is physically alive, having body with spirit, he is a living soul. When man is physically dead, his body no longer possesses a spirit because the spirit in man returns to God when our body die. But when a man is physically dead with the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, then our spirit is kept alive through the Holy Spirit, and our spirit leaves our dead body to return to dust, but with our spirit alive through His Spirit in us we go to heaven as living (spirit) soul.



SPIRIT
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. πνεῦμα pneuma (pneûma)
Search for G4151 in KJVSL; in KJV.

πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah - from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

SOUL
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5590. ψυχή psyche (psychḗ)
Search for G5590 in KJVSL; in KJV.

ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay' - from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151 (spirit) which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Through the spirit man possesses life, and as long as we continue to have life, whether physical or spiritual, the life we receive through the spirit in us is a living soul. While in physical bodies on earth, man is body + spirit = living soul. When our body no longer has physical life, our spirit + the Holy Spirit = spirit soul in heaven. After physical death apart from His Spirit in us, there is a complete absence of life.

While in physical bodies on earth, man is body + spirit = living soul.

Yes sir I agree with that, God made man from dust, and gave him the breath of life (God's spirit) and man became a living soul. That is actually what the Bible said happened. Nothing exists after death however, the body decays, and no consciousness exists after that breath of life leaves the body. That breath of life returns to God, and in the future those who do not have the judgment of gehenna will be resurrected. Jn 5:28,29. Ps 146:4; Ecc 9:5,6,10 If you believe those verses, then you will have it correct.

 

[rwb]

And to me His best choice, let them learn for themselves that they cannot make it without God.

Bob, is not that the purpose for which God created the serpent more cunning and crafty, then permitted the serpent to deceive A&E? Would you not agree that humanity was tested to show them that man has no ability to save themselves? Man had to be shown by experience there need for a Savior. The knowledge of good and evil must be experienced before mankind could fully understand the love God gives, as well as understanding of the antithesis for the love of God, which is evil.

Actually He did sir: (Genesis 3:24) . . .So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.

God did not block the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He allowed humankind to partake of this tree, knowing that once they experienced knowledge of sin and understanding of the resulting death, their eyes would be opened also to understand good, which God alone is.

Gen 1:26, we call it free will.

I know what it's called, but knowing what it's called does not answer the question of why God created man to have free will? God gave mankind dominion over all that He created, and through no fault of God, who created them very good, they freely chose to give the dominion God had given mankind to the serpent, who is "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world".

Unanswered in the Bible, in my opinion however, that was one of the ramification of the sin. That will have to be answered for us in the future sir.

I believe the Bible shows us that this was all part of the Creator's plan to redeem a people for Himself. That's why the Covenant of Redemption was ordained in heaven according to promise, through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God sent the serpent to test mankind, knowing they must experience both good and evil to understand them. This knowledge comes only through experience. God foreknowing that mankind with complete unfettered autonomy will always choose to be the master of their own destiny, created man with freedom to choose to obey Him, or listen to the voice of evil, knowing the way to save mankind was already accomplished in heaven before creation. It only appeared that Satan had succeeded when he deceived mankind and brought sin and death through sin into creation.

No reason not to allow satan not to be there until he sinned. Even after his sin he was still allowed access to heaven, even interacting with God Himself, until he was cast to the earth when Jesus was enthroned King.

Yes, Satan had access to heaven until the birth of Christ, when He came to earth a human. The battle between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels took place in heaven at the birth of Christ. That's when Michael and his angels defeated Satan and his angels, and Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth. This began the curtailing of the power Satan possessed before the promised Lamb slain came and brought salvation to man through the birth of Christ. That's when a loud voice was heard from heaven saying, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

The birth of Christ ushered in the plan that had been enacted in heaven through the slain Lamb. The promised Messiah was born, and through His birth came salvation and the Kingdom of God to the earth.

Things are rapidly falling apart here on earth, we are very close to the start of the tribulation, like the verse says most people will lose their lives, but to save His anointed, God will send His forces, and then the real stuff hits the fan sir.

"Great tribulation" has been against the Church, and She has endured by grace through faith since the advent of Christ come to earth a man, when He sent out His faithful Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through His Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. The gates of hell were loosed upon Christ and Christians on this earth, such has never before been, and shall never be again.

But it won't take Jesus and his powerful angels long to eradicate satans forces, and there will be many survivors that come out of it Rev 7:9, 14

Satan is already a defeated foe Bob. He is defeated by Christ and His saints; believers are His messengers (angels), who come out of "great tribulation". Satan has been and is being defeated as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed. Satan and his minions will be utterly destroyed by Christ coming again the second time.

 

[rwb]

Nothing exists after death however, the body decays, and no consciousness exists after that breath of life leaves the body. That breath of life returns to God, and in the future those who do not have the judgment of gehenna will be resurrected. Jn 5:28,29. Ps 146:4; Ecc 9:5,6,10 If you believe those verses, then you will have it correct.

Bob, you make no differentiation between the physical body that dies, and the breath of life, which is our spirit that returns to God. Believers spirit returns to God indwelt with the life-giving Spirit. Life through the Spirit in believers is eternal, so when the spirit in man is indwelt by the Holy Spirit our spirit shall NEVER die. The verses you quote all speak of man's flesh. All flesh is destined to die, and after death our body has no more conscience life, and will not until every human body is resurrected in the same hour coming to either resurrection life, or resurrection to damnation. You need to address the words of Christ when He says, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" and "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life". I believe the words Christ spoke, even after my body dies, I shall live because I believe in Him. In Him I have passed from death unto life, and that life is everlasting.

Knowing my flesh is destined to death, Christ says whosoever believes NEVER dies. How can He make this promise if nothing exists of believers after our body dies? He makes the promise for life everlasting through our spirit, indwelt by His Spirit in us. When we live and believe in Christ, though our body will die, the life we have through the Spirit in our spirit, returns to God ALIVE a spiritual (living) soul. Scripture is replete with passages and verses that indicate those who die in faith are alive in heaven after death a living spirit soul.

 

[ElieG12]

The spirit (or internal energy) of a living being is not something that can be described as alive or dead, just as a color cannot be said to be sweet or salty; they are simply not variables to apply to the concept.

When the spirit of a living being leaves it at death, that spirit ceases to be active and then naturally returns to be part of the original source who gave it: God. That spirit is no longer a person, but simply the force that moved it.

Sometimes metaphors are made in different languages using the word "spirit" as a synonym for attitude. These metaphors tell us that deep down we know that the term does not indicate "personality" when it comes to the energy that moves living beings. Scripture agrees with that impersonal view of the word spirit.

Obviously, this does not apply to living beings that were created as spirits, but only to the spirit that physical living beings have inside and that is the dynamic force that activates them, like energy activates any mechanical equipment.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Other is an added word Ron, as most words in the Bible are, which helps in understanding. The reason they put that there, even though it is common sense, is that Jesus did not create himself sir, but he did assist in everything else that was created. Heck you don't even think he was created, but to those of us who do, we fully realize that he did not create himself, Jehovah did.

Words added are because of grammatic need from Greek to English. Adding other is a total rewrite and redefining the passage which is a lie from Satan. Sorry but your generalities do not wash here.

 

[rwb]

The spirit (or internal energy) of a living being is not something that can be described as alive or dead, just as a color cannot be said to be sweet or salty; they are simply not variables to apply to the concept.

When the spirit of a living being leaves it at death, that spirit ceases to be active and then naturally returns to be part of the original source who gave it: God. That spirit is no longer a person, but simply the force that moved it.

When a man is physically alive it is because the spirit in him is giving him life. When we acknowledge living beings, we don't say they are living spirits, but that they are living souls. Because living souls on this earth are endowed outwardly with living body of flesh and inwardly a living spirit. When natural man dies without the life-giving Spirit in them, then I agree death is complete absence of life, both of the body and the natural spirit in man. The spirit of natural man returns to God who gave it, without life.

Sometimes metaphors are made in different languages using the word "spirit" as a synonym for attitude. These metaphors tell us that deep down we know that the term does not indicate "personality" when it comes to the energy that moves living beings. Scripture agrees with that impersonal view of the word spirit.

Obviously, this does not apply to living beings that were created as spirits, but only to the spirit that physical living beings have inside and that is the dynamic force that activates them, like energy activates any mechanical equipment.

Yes, sometimes spirit in man is synonymous with attitude. That's because our spirit defines man. Our spirit gives us intellect, it's from whence comes man's rational soul, vital principle, mental disposition. Man's spirit gives life to our heart, and from our mind comes our thoughts, desires, will and emotions. It is said that from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. The natural spirit in mankind cannot receive those things of God, those things that come only from the Holy Spirit in them. So, the natural man, having a natural spirit must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. To be born again means that our spirit is no longer influenced by the things or our natural spirit, things of this world, the flesh, and Satan, but becomes influenced by the Spirit of God. Because to have the Spirit in us means we have been born again, supernaturally and now have the Spirit in us guiding our mind and heart. The spiritual life we receive through the Spirit of Christ in us will not leave us, even after our body dies and returns to dust, through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit goes to heaven alive a spirit soul.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Bob, is not that the purpose for which God created the serpent more cunning and crafty, then permitted the serpent to deceive A&E? Would you not agree that humanity was tested to show them that man has no ability to save themselves? Man had to be shown by experience there need for a Savior. The knowledge of good and evil must be experienced before mankind could fully understand the love God gives, as well as understanding of the antithesis for the love of God, which is evil.



God did not block the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He allowed humankind to partake of this tree, knowing that once they experienced knowledge of sin and understanding of the resulting death, their eyes would be opened also to understand good, which God alone is.



I know what it's called, but knowing what it's called does not answer the question of why God created man to have free will? God gave mankind dominion over all that He created, and through no fault of God, who created them very good, they freely chose to give the dominion God had given mankind to the serpent, who is "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world".



I believe the Bible shows us that this was all part of the Creator's plan to redeem a people for Himself. That's why the Covenant of Redemption was ordained in heaven according to promise, through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God sent the serpent to test mankind, knowing they must experience both good and evil to understand them. This knowledge comes only through experience. God foreknowing that mankind with complete unfettered autonomy will always choose to be the master of their own destiny, created man with freedom to choose to obey Him, or listen to the voice of evil, knowing the way to save mankind was already accomplished in heaven before creation. It only appeared that Satan had succeeded when he deceived mankind and brought sin and death through sin into creation.



Yes, Satan had access to heaven until the birth of Christ, when He came to earth a human. The battle between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels took place in heaven at the birth of Christ. That's when Michael and his angels defeated Satan and his angels, and Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth. This began the curtailing of the power Satan possessed before the promised Lamb slain came and brought salvation to man through the birth of Christ. That's when a loud voice was heard from heaven saying, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12:10)

The birth of Christ ushered in the plan that had been enacted in heaven through the slain Lamb. The promised Messiah was born, and through His birth came salvation and the Kingdom of God to the earth.



"Great tribulation" has been against the Church, and She has endured by grace through faith since the advent of Christ come to earth a man, when He sent out His faithful Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through His Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. The gates of hell were loosed upon Christ and Christians on this earth, such has never before been, and shall never be again.



Satan is already a defeated foe Bob. He is defeated by Christ and His saints; believers are His messengers (angels), who come out of "great tribulation". Satan has been and is being defeated as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed. Satan and his minions will be utterly destroyed by Christ coming again the second time.

Would you not agree that humanity was tested to show them that man has no ability to save themselves? Man had to be shown by experience there need for a Savior. The knowledge of good and evil must be experienced before mankind could fully understand the love God gives, as well as understanding of the antithesis for the love of God, which is evil.

God did not block the tree of knowledge of good and evil,

The Bible does say the tree of life, but since the other tree was in the garden, since they no longer were allowed access, is it not logical that would be blocked as well?

I know what it's called, but knowing what it's called does not answer the question of why God created man to have free will?

The Bible answered that with the verse I posted, did you read it?

Yes, Satan had access to heaven until the birth of Christ, when He came to earth a human.

Actually satan was ousted when Jesus became King Rev 6:2; 12:7-9,12

Satan is already a defeated foe Bob.

Not yet, although he and the demons are judged for destruction already. In the near future, just after the tribulation Jesus will return with his powerful angels to remove satan and his followers, 2 Thes 1:8,9; Rev 20:1-3. After that he will be released for a short while 20:7 and then permanently destroyed v10

 

[Robert Gwin]

Words added are because of grammatic need from Greek to English. Adding other is a total rewrite and redefining the passage which is a lie from Satan. Sorry but your generalities do not wash here.

Just simply truth, as you stated in your reply Ron. Those words were added for understanding. Have you ever looked at some of the oldest manuscripts? I have seen bits and pieces. I have one app that puts what originally was written in blue, and the added words are black.

I will give you a couple of examples( Words in red are added): John 3:16 is mostly unchanged: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This one is interesting, because without the additions, it would really not be understood: 1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth * also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
See how it would have said sin was law. That is why translators add words, to aid in understanding.

This of course was taken not from the original Bible, since it don't exist, but was an app created by someone, so it might be correct or not. But it is interesting sometimes to examine it's take on what was originally written.

 

[rwb]

The Bible does say the tree of life, but since the other tree was in the garden, since they no longer were allowed access, is it not logical that would be blocked as well?

Bob, once they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the damage was done. Knowing what is good and what is evil is an experience that cannot be undone. Therefore no, the way to the tree of knowledge was not blocked, and history proves that all the progeny (humanity) continually partakes of this tree through the ages since the fall. For the Bible tells us "There are none righteous, no not one", mankind now living with the experience or understanding of good and evil, left to their own devices continually heed the voice of evil, until they hear the voice of Christ through His Gospel.

The Bible answered that with the verse I posted, did you read it?

Gn. 1:26 does not give the answer for man being created with free will. It says that man, being created in the likeness and image of God was given dominion over creation. Dominion they freely chose to give to Satan.

Actually satan was ousted when Jesus became King Rev 6:2; 12:7-9,12

The birth of Christ marked the beginning of His royal reign. Rev 6:2; 12:7-9, 12 depicts Christ's birth when He first began to conquer. And Christ conquered Satan and his angels through Michael and his angels, casting them out of heaven and to the earth.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Satan was defeated by Christ when He gave His life for sin, and defeated death by His resurrection.

Not yet, although he and the demons are judged for destruction already. In the near future, just after the tribulation Jesus will return with his powerful angels to remove satan and his followers, 2 Thes 1:8,9; Rev 20:1-3. After that he will be released for a short while 20:7 and then permanently destroyed v10

Once believers were delivered from fear of bondage to death, Satan's power over death was destroyed. Without power to hold believers in bondage to fear of death Satan, having been defeated, is already destroyed. Since Satan can no longer hold believers in fear of death, his kingdom of darkness (the pit, grave, place of the dead) is destroyed forever. Because without this power, the Kingdom of God will be complete, by His faithful Church as they proclaim the Gospel and whosoever believes is no longer in fear of death, through the knowledge that all who are in Christ shall NEVER die. It is in this manner that Satan has been bound (Rev 20:1-3) through Christ's cross and resurrection.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When read in context 2Th shows us that when Christ returns the second time with His mighty angels, He will utterly destroy His enemies, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction, and at that time His saints glorified. Rev 20:7 tells us Satan is loosed for a "little season" to be consumed by the fire of God that comes down from heaven.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (KJV) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just simply truth, as you stated in your reply Ron. Those words were added for understanding. Have you ever looked at some of the oldest manuscripts? I have seen bits and pieces. I have one app that puts what originally was written in blue, and the added words are black.

I will give you a couple of examples( Words in red are added): John 3:16 is mostly unchanged: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This one is interesting, because without the additions, it would really not be understood: 1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth * also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
See how it would have said sin was law. That is why translators add words, to aid in understanding.

This of course was taken not from the original Bible, since it don't exist, but was an app created by someone, so it might be correct or not. But it is interesting sometimes to examine it's take on what was originally written.

Well we can get into manuscript evidence if you wish. I took a course on it.

And if you bothered to learn basic greek, you would know that personal pronouns are derived in English from the gender in Greek. also words like only are derived from the word monogenes- which one begotten where we add the word only in English. The translators did not change teh entire definition of a sentence in translating like the Watchtower is guilty of.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Bob, once they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the damage was done. Knowing what is good and what is evil is an experience that cannot be undone. Therefore no, the way to the tree of knowledge was not blocked, and history proves that all the progeny (humanity) continually partakes of this tree through the ages since the fall. For the Bible tells us "There are none righteous, no not one", mankind now living with the experience or understanding of good and evil, left to their own devices continually heed the voice of evil, until they hear the voice of Christ through His Gospel.



Gn. 1:26 does not give the answer for man being created with free will. It says that man, being created in the likeness and image of God was given dominion over creation. Dominion they freely chose to give to Satan.



The birth of Christ marked the beginning of His royal reign. Rev 6:2; 12:7-9, 12 depicts Christ's birth when He first began to conquer. And Christ conquered Satan and his angels through Michael and his angels, casting them out of heaven and to the earth.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Satan was defeated by Christ when He gave His life for sin, and defeated death by His resurrection.



Once believers were delivered from fear of bondage to death, Satan's power over death was destroyed. Without power to hold believers in bondage to fear of death Satan, having been defeated, is already destroyed. Since Satan can no longer hold believers in fear of death, his kingdom of darkness (the pit, grave, place of the dead) is destroyed forever. Because without this power, the Kingdom of God will be complete, by His faithful Church as they proclaim the Gospel and whosoever believes is no longer in fear of death, through the knowledge that all who are in Christ shall NEVER die. It is in this manner that Satan has been bound (Rev 20:1-3) through Christ's cross and resurrection.

Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When read in context 2Th shows us that when Christ returns the second time with His mighty angels, He will utterly destroy His enemies, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction, and at that time His saints glorified. Rev 20:7 tells us Satan is loosed for a "little season" to be consumed by the fire of God that comes down from heaven.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (KJV) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Gn. 1:26 does not give the answer for man being created with free will. It says that man, being created in the likeness and image of God was given dominion over creation.

Being made in God's image did not mean looks sir, it meant qualities. Perhaps you can see the difference between humans and the closest to human animal distinctions. All creation created in God's image have the ability to think and make choices. Those choices are regulated by God's laws however, and must be kept within the guidelines of His law.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well we can get into manuscript evidence if you wish. I took a course on it.

And if you bothered to learn basic greek, you would know that personal pronouns are derived in English from the gender in Greek. also words like only are derived from the word monogenes- which one begotten where we add the word only in English. The translators did not change teh entire definition of a sentence in translating like the Watchtower is guilty of.

I either made my point or I didn't. Like I said the original Bible doesn't exist, so it is simply guesswork anyway. Perhaps that source is incorrect, but I am sure that of the oldest surviving manuscripts that they have correctly shown what was not there. Both of us stated that words were added for understanding. I think that settles it Ron, as we are in agreement on this.

 

[rwb]

Being made in God's image did not mean looks sir, it meant qualities. Perhaps you can see the difference between humans and the closest to human animal distinctions. All creation created in God's image have the ability to think and make choices. Those choices are regulated by God's laws however, and must be kept within the guidelines of His law.

To be made in His likeness and image was to be created with the ability to live forever in sinless perfection and having the ability to have fellowship and communion with Him through His Spirit breathed into them. All of this was lost when they willfully chose to disobey.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

When natural man dies without the life-giving Spirit in them, then I agree death is complete absence of life

Respectfully disagree:

'Confusion' of What Is Death...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I either made my point or I didn't. Like I said the original Bible doesn't exist, so it is simply guesswork anyway. Perhaps that source is incorrect, but I am sure that of the oldest surviving manuscripts that they have correctly shown what was not there. Both of us stated that words were added for understanding. I think that settles it Ron, as we are in agreement on this.

Well you are wrong in this as well! but then yu would have to do individual work outside of Watchtower material and that is verboten!

 

[ElieG12]

Well you are wrong in this as well! but then yu would have to do individual work outside of Watchtower material and that is verboten!

No true Christian accepts your attacks as if they were supported by Jesus... True Christians know that this attitude is caused by evil spirits. In this way, Jehovah's Witnesses defeat false Christians, and those who seek the truth and are not Jehovah's Witnesses can distinguish by attitudes who really has the support of God and Jesus.

I myself, for example, am convinced more and more every day that those who attack Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the support of Jesus ... because I know everything Jesus taught regarding the attitudes that he approves and those that he does not.

James 3.13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.

1 Pet. 2:12 Maintain YOUR conduct fine among the nations, that, in the thing in which they are speaking against YOU as evildoers, they may as a result of YOUR fine works of which they are eyewitnesses glorify God in the day for [his] inspection.