23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Ronald Nolette]

Not so. I gave you biblical support for corroboration. That is normally enough for most born again Christians. But not for you. You need a website to support such biblical demands. Do you realize how silly your demands sound? Think about it: what did we do before the internet. This matter is a biblical given by all sound theologians since the Reformation. It is what they blew Romanism out of the water with.

For witnesses to a crime and establishing facts when someone is accused. but you did not show me the fundamental doctrine of corroboration from the bible as you define it.

Once again you defined your personal doctrine of corroboration by saying the bible has to support something with two or three witnesses. I gave you but a small list of events that have no other biblical corroboration. so according to teh rule you declared on this thread, those events should not be taken literally just like the 1000 years as you allege.

What I want is you citing some theologians who define this "fundamental doctrine" as you called it. More and more it seems you just made this up out of whole cloth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello! We are not talking about isolated events that relate to the intra-Advent age that have no major effect on fundamental doctrines. With Premil, we are looking at the invention of some imaginary future age unknown to any of the other Old Testament prophets,

Now I know you have not read the minor and major prophets! Their inspired writings are dripping with prophecies of a future earthly kingdom! Or you are deliberately lying and refuse to admit what the prophets wrote about. I don't know.

They all looked to a future perfect arrangement that would arrive at the one final future coming of Christ that would be climactic and eternal. This forbids Premil. The Old Testament prophets anticipated and predicted the arrival of the Messiah with His heavenly kingdom and taught how this would introduce the last days. They spoke

Jesus spoke of the kingdom on earth. He sets His throne to judge when He returns to earth. the apostles knew of a future kingdom on earth!

Acts !:

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Teh Apostles knew the OT prophecies announcing a future earthly kingdom on earth. What amils do is ignore how Jesus answered. He did not say - Sorry guys there is no earthly kingdom. He did say- Sorry guys, it is not for you to know when Israel will receive the promised kingdom- that is in the Fathers hands. but instead of dealing with that thought, instead do this.........

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you consider Christ's appearing before your 7-years trib a "coming"?
Do you consider Christ's appearing after your 7-years trib a "coming"?

Well I won't get into nit picking english words with you.

The Rapture is a coming (paruosia) which means He is in proximity. It is not His Second coming because He never returns to earth. the rapture is a descending most likely into the atmosphere to gather the believers sometime before the tribulation commences. How long before the Bible doesn't say.

After the Battle of Armagedón- Jesus leaves heaven and physically comes to earth! That is what is commonly known as teh Second coming of Jesus.

We have to compare apples to apples. In this case His first coming was to be on earth, so His SEcond coming will be as the first- He will be on earth! the rapture is not a "coming" then in that sense or context for e does not descent to earth.

 

[WPM]

For witnesses to a crime and establishing facts when someone is accused. but you did not show me the fundamental doctrine of corroboration from the bible as you define it.

What I want is you citing some theologians who define this "fundamental doctrine" as you called it. More and more it seems you just made this up out of whole cloth.

LOL. I cannot in anyway take ownership or authorship of this great hermeneutical principle and biblical truth that most sound Christians everywhere adhere to. I take your unwise attacks as a complement. Corroboration is such a clear and wise biblical demand. It is a principle i have learned in church-life and ministry from a child. While you conveniently see no need of it because your beliefs carry no corroboration, most Christian do. This feels like the final death-throes of your Pretrib/Premil arguments. All you have now is your own private opinions.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When someone takes one Scripture and makes it contradicts numerous other Scripture you know that their understanding of that text is wrong.

But the 1000 years contradicts no scripture. Pre mils accept it as it is written 6 times.

ersonal interpretation of a Scripture alone is untrustworthy. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scripture. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

Personal interpretation is sin. And allegorists do that all the time.

We need to establish what is the consistent repeated testimony of the rest of Scripture on the said matter. We should always compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God. The only sure way to interpret Scripture effectively is with other Scripture. Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture, not the human mind. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” This important principle is outlined repeatedly both the OT and the NT.

Now you are beginning to sound like a pre mil teacher and expositor! YOu are learning.

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

So cite me how this is a proof text for your fundamental doctrine of corroboration. cite me some teachers and pastors who suppor t this.

So far all we have is you taking verses about establishing facts in teh case of accusations of wrong doing and ripping 1 Cor. 2 way out of context to misapply your reinterpreting Rev. 20. Context is far more important than your made up doctine of corroboration.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL. I cannot in anyway take ownership or authorship of this great hermeneutical principle and biblical truth that most sound Christians everywhere adhere to. I take your unwise attacks as a complement. Corroboration is such a clear and wise biblical demand. It is a principle i have learned in church-life and ministry from a child. While you conveniently see no need of it because your beliefs carry no corroboration, most Christian do. This feels like the final death-throes of your Pretrib/Premil arguments. All you have now is your own private opinions.

Most sound christians everywhere? then you should have no problem citing some Christian text or preacher or denomination that teaches on this principle that so far all we have is you saying it is so and failing to provide evidence that it is sound accepted everywhere like American Express.

Once again failing to support what you now allege is a world wide accepted fundamental doctrine of the faith and not citing even one sound source is hiding and playing extremely loose with the truth.

Remember I went searching and could not find one Christin source defending your made up fundamental doctrine- NOT ONE! If it is world wide, I should google it like hundreds of other doctrines and find many believing sources who define, defend, and declare the doctrine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL. I cannot in anyway take ownership or authorship of this great hermeneutical principle and biblical truth that most sound Christians everywhere adhere to. I take your unwise attacks as a complement. Corroboration is such a clear and wise biblical demand. It is a principle i have learned in church-life and ministry from a child. While you conveniently see no need of it because your beliefs carry no corroboration, most Christian do. This feels like the final death-throes of your Pretrib/Premil arguments. All you have now is your own private opinions.

I will give you one last time to show support for this doctrine- I f you fail, I am calling you out on a lie and end this. Here is your chance to act with honor.

 

[WPM]

Well I won't get into nit picking english words with you.

The Rapture is a coming (paruosia) which means He is in proximity. It is not His Second coming because He never returns to earth. the rapture is a descending most likely into the atmosphere to gather the believers sometime before the tribulation commences. How long before the Bible doesn't say.

After the Battle of Armagedón- Jesus leaves heaven and physically comes to earth! That is what is commonly known as teh Second coming of Jesus.

We have to compare apples to apples. In this case His first coming was to be on earth, so His SEcond coming will be as the first- He will be on earth! the rapture is not a "coming" then in that sense or context for e does not descent to earth.

LOL. I knew you would duck around that. You have to. Your own statements contradict your own doctrine. You are playing with words again to support your error. That is what Pretribbers do. That is what one does when they are advocating false teaching. Whether it is the word "parousia" or "coming" or "appearing" or "gathering" or "revelation" of Christ, it happens the next time He appears at the end. You don't even have one single proof text for your teaching, as you admit. Websites and the Left Behind novels are the source of your doctrine. It is not in the Bible.

Heb 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

This is talking about His next appearance. This is talking about Him coming for His people. It is talking about the the catching away.

Frankly: you are over the place. One post contradicts another post. You are defeating yourself.

You state: "the rapture while called a coming, once again is not at all connected to teh return of Jesus to earth." This is total and contradictory gibberish. If the rapture is a coming then it is the second coming. Hello! Who do you think you are fooling? Your next coming after that, at the end of your imaginary 7-years trib, is also a coming. So, that makes it a 3rd coming. Your theology also requires a 4th coming at the end of Satan's little season when the earth flees away, that is if you don't think the redeemed are going to flee away with your millennial earth. That is how absurd Pretrib is. It is fanciful non-corroborative. It is nonsensical.

 

[WPM]

Most sound christians everywhere? then you should have no problem citing some Christian text or preacher or denomination that teaches on this principle that so far all we have is you saying it is so and failing to provide evidence that it is sound accepted everywhere like American Express.

Once again failing to support what you now allege is a world wide accepted fundamental doctrine of the faith and not citing even one sound source is hiding and playing extremely loose with the truth.

Remember I went searching and could not find one Christin source defending your made up fundamental doctrine- NOT ONE! If it is world wide, I should google it like hundreds of other doctrines and find many believing sources who define, defend, and declare the doctrine.

I have no difficulty sourcing support for this. There are multiple sources online. I am not interested in that. I am more interested in showing you the biblical support, which you reject. The Book does not seem satisfactory enough for you. Your teachers and webmasters are what you prefer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

LOL. I knew you would duck around that. You have to. Your own statements contradict your own doctrine. You are playing with words again to support your error. That is what Pretribbers do. That is what one does when they are advocating false teaching. Whether it is the word "parousia" or "coming" or "appearing" or "gathering" or "revelation" of Christ, it happens the next time He appears at the end. You don't even have one single proof text for your teaching, as you admit. Websites and the Left Behind novels are the source of your doctrine. It is not in the Bible.

Wromg again sherlock! Still waiting for you to cite one of the world wide accepters of the is fundamental doctrine of corroboration. You love to attack but not defend.

I defended "coming" according to the greek. But as you lack in English I expect you to not know how the Greek was uses.

 

[WPM]

I will give you one last time to show support for this doctrine- I f you fail, I am calling you out on a lie and end this. Here is your chance to act with honor.

You are desperate to run. You have nothing of biblical weight. You reject what Scripture teaches - time after time. You demand me to quote websites to support my beliefs or you will run. That is the most ridiculous request i have ever had made on this board. It is infantile. Grow up and get back to the Word of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You state: "the rapture while called a coming, once again is not at all connected to teh return of Jesus to earth." This is total and contradictory gibberish. If the rapture is a coming then it is the second coming. Hello! Who do you think you are fooling? Your next coming after that, at the end of your imaginary 7-years trib, is also a coming. So, that makes it a 3rd coming. Your theology also requires a 4th coming at the end of Satan's little season when the earth flees away, that is if you don't think the redeemed are going to flee away with your millennial earth. That is how absurd Pretrib is. It is fanciful non-corroborative. It is nonsensical.

Not it is biblical!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

the Lord here never returns to earth! He descends in the air, gathers up dead Christians first (resurrects them) and then takes us who are alive and gathers us up to meet Jesus in the air!

It really is basic grammar school vocabulary.

You state: "the rapture while called a coming, once again is not at all connected to teh return of Jesus to earth." This is total and contradictory gibberish. If the rapture is a coming then it is the second coming. Hello! Who do you think you are fooling? Your next coming after that, at the end of your imaginary 7-years trib, is also a coming. So, that makes it a 3rd coming. Your theology also requires a 4th coming at the end of Satan's little season when the earth flees away, that is if you don't think the redeemed are going to flee away with your millennial earth. That is how absurd Pretrib is. It is fanciful non-corroborative. It is nonsensical.

Well then actually it would be a fourth coming because Jesus came down in a bright light to knock Paul off his horse and then taught Him in teh desert for years! See you see the word coming and feel it must be His return to earth- they are not. You are so used to ripping verses out of context and then patching them where they don't belong you have forgotten baisc rules of even allegorical hermeneutics

Still waiting for one cite other than you for your world wide accepted fundamental doctrine of corroboration.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are desperate to run. You have nothing of biblical weight. You reject what Scripture teaches - time after time. You demand me to quote websites to support my beliefs or you will run. That is the most ridiculous request i have ever had made on this board. It is infantile. Grow up and get back to the Word of God.

I wll keep my own counsel as to why I write what I write. You are just childish have the last word. If it is not a cite from anyone in the world wide acccepters of this fundamental doctrine of corroboration, I will just ignore it move on and realize you lied.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have no difficulty sourcing support for this. There are multiple sources online. I am not interested in that. I am more interested in showing you the biblical support, which you reject. The Book does not seem satisfactory enough for you. Your teachers and webmasters are what you prefer.

Your prepubescent false accusations I wear as a badge of honor. All I have been asking is for you to cite one major source for this. You refuse. Goodbye!

YOu are childish, presumptuous, arrogant and attempt at reading minds which adds sin unto sin.

 

[WPM]

Wromg again sherlock! Still waiting for you to cite one of the world wide accepters of the is fundamental doctrine of corroboration. You love to attack but not defend.

I defended "coming" according to the greek. But as you lack in English I expect you to not know how the Greek was uses.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture.

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

Thus, the second coming of the Lord shall come in like manner, verse 39 confirms, “so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Wromg again sherlock! Still waiting for you to cite one of the world wide accepters of the is fundamental doctrine of corroboration. You love to attack but not defend.

I defended "coming" according to the greek. But as you lack in English I expect you to not know how the Greek was uses.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

The catching away is the second coming. Read the text. Stop defaulting to your teachers and outside websites.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ (most modern translations say “the day of the Lord”) is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [Gr. epiphaneia] of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

Antichrist is destroyed at His next coming. This is the time when we are gathered together unto the Lord at the catching away.

 

[WPM]

I wll keep my own counsel as to why I write what I write. You are just childish have the last word. If it is not a cite from anyone in the world wide acccepters of this fundamental doctrine of corroboration, I will just ignore it move on and realize you lied.

You have to do your own research.

Check the Reformers. Study the development of Protestant theology and you will learn a lot about the importance of corroboration.

 

[WPM]

Your prepubescent false accusations I wear as a badge of honor. All I have been asking is for you to cite one major source for this. You refuse. Goodbye!

YOu are childish, presumptuous, arrogant and attempt at reading minds which adds sin unto sin.

Can I remind you that this is a Bible discussion forum? Arguments are based upon hard Scripture, not the opinions of men on outside internet websites (regardless of how godly they are). I have shown you clear Scripture that highlights the necessity of supporting Scripture with Scripture when it comes to theology. This has been a central element of evangelical Protestantism since the Reformation.

Speaking about scriptura sui ipsius interpres, Martin Luther said: “That is the true method of interpretation, which puts Scripture alongside of Scripture in a right and proper way.”

He added: “one passage must be explained by another."

He concluded: “a doubtful and obscure passage must be explained by a clear and certain passage.”

Sadly, you have dismissed that. This may explain why you have so readily embraced Pretrib and Premil. This is where Amils disagree strongly you.

 

[Timtofly]

What saith the Scripture?

2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

When someone takes one Scripture and makes it contradicts numerous other Scripture you know that their understanding of that text is wrong.

Personal interpretation of a Scripture alone is untrustworthy. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scripture. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

Deuteronomy 17:6: “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.”

John 8:17-18: “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.”

We need to establish what is the consistent repeated testimony of the rest of Scripture on the said matter. We should always compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God. The only sure way to interpret Scripture effectively is with other Scripture. Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture, not the human mind. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” This important principle is outlined repeatedly both the OT and the NT.

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.

There is no corroborative Scripture declaring Revelation 20 is not a future 1,000 year event.

 

[WPM]

There is no corroborative Scripture declaring Revelation 20 is not a future 1,000 year event.

Wrong! The millennium has run from the first resurrection. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Amils believe in corroboration.

What Scripture do you have that support your opinion of Revelation 20 that the first resurrection will be in the future?