23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[covenantee]

Of course the reformed gang does, they believe Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation has seen some sort of fulfillment already, I been watching the gangs postings for months

Jesus Is The Lord

Why are you unwilling to discuss Daniel's grammar?

 

[jeffweeder]

Direct Questions:

1.) Has Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15 been fulfilled, please explain?

The less we say about it the better, let the text speak for itself.
After the tribulation spoken of - Jesus comes again yes?



29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor]. 31 And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet and they will gather together His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



The tribulation sees the Jews receiving wrath and exile as their temple is being destroyed and ends when the Lord returns in full viw of all the tribes on earth.


Lk 21
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.

2.) Has The Great Tribulation Matthew 24:21 been fulfilled, please explain?

See above

No flesh will survive this tribulation, only the elect when God intervenes and ends all things on his own terms with final judgment. Just as it was in noahs day when God intervened.

Matt 24
22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.



Gen 6

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness (depravity) of man was great on the earth, and that every imagination or intent of the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually. 6 The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy (annihilate) mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth—not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air—because it [deeply] grieves Me [to see mankind’s sin] and I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor and grace in the eyes of the Lord.

13 God said to Noah, “I intend to make an end of all that lives, for through men the land is filled with violence; and behold, I am about to destroy them together with the land.

God provided salvation for Noah and his family and they were saved.
In these last days he has provided Jesus Christ to save us from the Lords intervention on all flesh.


2Pet 3
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]?

For ever since the fathers fell asleep [in death], all things have continued [exactly] as they did from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

 

[Truth7t7]

The tribulation sees the Jews receiving wrath and exile as their temple is being destroyed
and ends when the Lord returns in full viw of all the tribes on earth.

It appears that you claim a tribulation started in 70AD with a temple destruction in Jerusalem, then you have this tribulation ending at the future second coming?

The scripture below is in conflict with claims of 70AD fulfillment, as the generation seen will be "Eye Witnesses" of the "Future" Jerusalem being trodden down, the Great tribulation, signs in the heavens, and the "Future" second coming

Jesus Is The Lord

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(No 2,000 Year Gap Exist's Between Verses 24-25 Here, 70AD to Second Coming)

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[jeffweeder]

It appears that you claim a tribulation started in 70AD with a temple destruction in Jerusalem, then you have this tribulation ending at the future second coming?

The scripture below is in conflict with claims of 70AD fulfillment, as the generation seen will be "Eye Witnesses" of the "Future" Jerusalem being trodden down, the Great tribulation, signs in the heavens, and the "Future" second coming

Jesus Is The Lord

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

No conflict.
Jesus is answering a question of when the temple would be destroyed. He then goes on to describe the GT and the wrath that would befall this people and Jerusalem. The vengeance begins with their temple being destroyed and their sufferings in exile UNTIL the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

They return from exile and this ushers in the end time of delusion we are now witnessing. 2Thess 2



The tribulations finale comes upon the whole world at his coming, not just Jerusalem in AD 70. Nothing preterist about that.




Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Lk 21
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

No conflict.
Jesus is answering a question of when the temple would be destroyed. He then goes on to describe the GT and the wrath that would befall this people and Jerusalem. The vengeance begins with their temple being destroyed and their sufferings in exile UNTIL the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

They return from exile and this ushers in the end time of delusion we are now witnessing. 2Thess 2



The tribulations finale comes upon the whole world at his coming, not just Jerusalem in AD 70. Nothing preterist about that.




Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Lk 21
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.

I Strongly Disagree, there isn't a 2,000 year gap seen between verses 24/25 as you suggest in a continuous tribulation from 70AD, to a future second coming, and those seen will be the generation that are eyewitnesses of "All The Events Mentioned"

70AD played absolutely no fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 whatsoever, your preterist claim fails

Jesus Is The Lord

Luke 21:24-28KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

(No 2,000 Year Gap Exist's Between Verses 24-25 Here, 70AD to Second Coming)

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus is answering a question of when the temple would be destroyed.

Jesus Christ spoke of a symbolic destruction of the Temple seen, and the Temple destroyed was his literal body as scripture clearly teaches below

"Destroy This Temple" as Jesus and the Pharisees viewed the temple that took 46 years to build

Interpretation: But he spake of the temple of his body

"Yes" Reformed Preterist Eschatology in 67-70AD fulfillment, would be found in the court of the Pharisees literal interpretation

Once Again, 67-70AD Jerusalems destruction had absolutely "Nothing" to do with fulfillment of Matthew Chapter 24, Mark Chapter 13, or Luke Chapter 21

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Taken]

For example:

• For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?

It is Wisdom to know the Lamb Is NOT ON Earth.
It is Wisdom to Know WHO the Lamb IS.
It is Wisdom to Know WHO comes to Earth WITH the Lamb.

Rev 17:
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that?

Secured Salvation for men Before physical Death has been occurring for 2,000 years for Any willing man, primarily being accepted by Gentiles.
Considering Gods Order and Way…6,000 years ago, HEBREWS, Tribes, Jews First. Jews rejecting, Gentiles accepting The Lords (Jesus) IS the Messiah (Christ/Power of God).
Great Tribulation begins with the WRATH of the Lamb….Seals of The Lamb, WHO IS, the Lord of lords, King of kings, Christ, Jesus….WITH his Faithful Church saints and Holy Angels.

The Lamb, Lord, Christ, Jesus IS Not ON Earth….When His Tribulations, 7 Seal openings, His Wrath is Sent TO Earth….Nor ARE His Faithful that Come WITH Him ON Earth!

• The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation.

WISDOM is Knowing WHO IS DOING WHAT, and Not confuse ONE with the OTHER.
Son of Man
Son of God
Word of God
God IN Spirit
God in the Flesh
Lamb of God
Christ, Messiah, Spirit, Power, Wisdom, Savior, Seed
Lord of lords
King of kings


Wisdom IS Knowing God IS ONE God…
Understanding IS NOT mixing specific Roles…
All the Same ONE God fulfilling Particular Roles-and Expressly identified by Name/Title/Role/Purpose/Intent.

The Lord God Saves WHOM and WHEN HE Pleases.
ISRAEL (race of people) have been Blinded for 2,000 years….so people like me, Gentile (race) could be brought into the Fold of Gods “Faithful” People.

If you as a Gentile or Jew Have NOT chosen to BE “MADE” according TO Gods Way, Accounted WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)….AND Removed From the Face of the Earth….BY the “Lord”….TO BE Where He IS….Forevermore…Even With Him when He Returns TO Earth.

(then absolutely….WHEN God Sends Tribulation Down From Heaven…and IN Mass chaos, destruction, death upon the face of the Earth, you will be among Those who have not Chosen…and Be making your Decision to bodily Die IN belief (along with the Tribes of Israel being Taught the Salvation of Christ during the Trib BY A Lamb And their own Kinsman /Not Gentiles)…

Then along with Every Eye…
IN Heaven, ON Earth, IN the Earth ….you “on” or “in” the Earth can Look Up and See the Son of Man sitting ON a white cloud REAPING the Earth…Separating Those (primarily Tribesmen who Learned during the Trib Jesus IS the Christ Savior and are Given Salvation as God Promised He Would Save HIS people)….and where are YOU going to BE? And With Whom?

With Son of Man, While He is sitting ON a White Cloud Reaping the Earth Saving ISRAEL ? (Rev 14:14) ….

Or With the Lord IN The Clouds With The Church Already MADE WHOLE, body, soul spirit?

Or With the Gentile believers ON Earth, waiting to bodily Die (because they
rejected being bodily crucified with Jesus)?

Or With the unbelievers vacillating to believe God or Satan? And left ON Earth….because Any man that IS not WITH God IS Against God.

Or With those marked and sealed unto Satan?

• Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.

Scripture makes clear, CHRIST the Lord Jesus IS the Savior.
Opened Eyes reveal Jews have overwhelming rejected Jesus is the Christ.
Scripture makes Clear…CHRIST the Lord Jesus was Sent To the Jews to Save them…and He was Rejected.
DILEMMA….Gods Word Shall Prevail…
God Will Again Send His LAMB with 12 men uh no, Rather with 144,000 Tribesmen to Teach the Jews…Gods Truth…and Save His People.

• Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.

Your Commentary begins with a misconception and elevates to elaborating one false belief upon another….then claims you disagree with your own commentary you have decided is an others belief.

 

[St. Joseph]

I have updated my list of objections to Premil. I will submit this for your attention and response.

Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the Premillennialism doctrine, and are strong reasons why I believe the dogma should be rejected.

I want to list some of the issues that forced me to eventually abandon Premillennialism and embrace Amillennialism. My main reason for abandoning Premil was the severe lack of corroboration. I had a major issue with that! What is more: I had multiple problem-texts as a Premil that showed the coming of Christ to be climactic and all-consummating. I have presented a lot of these questions in discussions over the years (since 2000) on boards like this and have failed to get any satisfactory corroboration for these questions. What I normally get is either blatant avoidance of the issues or "Revelation 20 says." This is so frustrating because Revelation 20 does not corroborate Revelation 20. Amils on the other hand tend to use the biblical premise "what saith the Scripture." The only conclusion I could arrive at is that the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 is in error, it conflicts with numerous Scripture, and enjoys no other serious scriptural support.

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

(2) Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 that and Revelation 20 and Premil falls apart.

(3) The detail Premil attributes to Revelation 20 compared to what the actual text explicitly says is day and night. Revelation 20 does not remotely say what Premil attribute to it. Many extravagant characteristics, events and ideas are inserted into Revelation 20 that do not exist in the said chapter.

For example:

• For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. But this can be found nowhere in Revelation 20 or any other passage in Scripture?
• Premillennialists argue that salvation will continue on after the second coming. But where does it say that? The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Scripture makes clear: now is the day of salvation. It also shows the completion of the great commission ushers in the end of the world (Matthew 28:19-20). Scriptures tells us that “the longsuffering of our Lord” that marks the period before Jesus comes as a thief in the night “is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). There is no more salvation after that.
• They argue that the old covenant arrangement will be fully restarted in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such teaching.
• Premillennialists speak about the restoration of an elevated position for ethnic Israel on their future millennial earth. But a careful study of Revelation 20 teaches no such thing.
• They insist that glorified saints and mortal sinners will interact in a future millennium, even though Revelation 20 makes no mention of such a belief.
• They present their future millennium to be perfect pristine paradise of peace and harmony when in fact it ends up the biggest religious bust in history, as billions of wicked as the sand of the sea overrun the Premil millennium. Their age is just 'more of the same'. There is more sin and sinners, more death and disease, more war and terror, more of the devil and his demons. The idyllic setting of the lamb enjoying sweet communion with the wolf, the bullock eating straw with the lion, the little kid-goat lying peaceably beside the leopard, the cow and the bear grazing happily together is quickly broken as the slaughter trucks roar up from the temple. The Zadok priests quickly jump out and drag the unsuspecting animals aboard who had been lulled into a false-sense of security by Christ’s rod of iron rule. As the trucks speed off the millennial peace and harmony is broken forever by the bloody intent of the Zadok priests. When they arrive in Jerusalem, they pointlessly slit the throats of the lambs, goats and bullocks because they are somehow needed as sin offerings, even though Jesus had made the final sacrifice for sin thousands of years previous.
• If there are mortal saints that surrender their lives to Christ in some supposed future millennium, and if the earth does indeed flee away after Satan's little season as Revelation 20 states, then there must be (of necessity) another rapture and glorification in order to rescue them from the regeneration or replacement of this current earth. Of course, no Premil will acknowledge this. This is what error produces!

(4) Premillennialists interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts numerous explicit climactic Scriptures. Premillennialists have to insert “a thousand years” in passage after passage where it does not exist. This is called adding unto Scripture, something forbidden in the Word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32 and Revelation 22:18).

(5) Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation. The interpretation placed on the Old Testament by Christ and the New Testament writers override all other opinions and interpretations of man. As Augustine wrote: “The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.”

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

I would be willing to bet you believe Lucifer was Satan. The scriptures never say anywhere that is true. So why do you believe it? What evidence backed by scripture,do you have that Satan was Lucifer?