“Then I saw standing in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been killed… the twenty-four elders threw themselves to the ground before the Lamb.” (Revelation 5:6, 8)
Perhaps these elder belonged to the Starship Enterprise?
“I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given.” (Revelation 6:9)
Perhaps these souls were under an earthly altar?
“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints.” (Jude 1:14)
Perhaps these saints were already on earth and Jesus met them and a depot just outside of Jerusalem when He arrived?
There are many scriptures that talk about heaven as the reward of saints. These are not “solely from inference.” Have you not found that Justin Martyr teaches on this subject?
Justin Martyr said: "(Rusticus the prefect said), "Do you suppose, then, that you will ascend into heaven to receive your recompense?" Justin Replied, "I do not suppose it, but I know and am fully persuaded of it."
Athenagoras said: "We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one. It will be a heavenly life, not an earthly one."
Papias said: "Those who are deemed worthy of a habitation in heaven will go there, others will enjoy the delights in paradise."
Origen said: "To those who will deserve to obtain an inheritance in the Kingdom of Heavens, that germ of the body's restoration... It restores a body capable of inhabiting the heavens."
It's really good to see that you are studied up on the Early Church Fathers... Have you come across "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs", by David Bercott?
Steve
Hi Steve,
Where does Scripture teach that Christians go to heaven when they die? You've given me a few passages of Scripture that you believe teach this yet none of them state this. The twenty four elders in Revelation is according to John a future event. Those under the altar are according to Victorinus under the earth because he equates the brazen altar with the earth. The Lord coming with ten thousand of His saints does not necessitate people, the word simply means holy ones and can refer to angels as well a people.
What we have is an area where there is not agreement among the ECF's. We can understand this when we understand the influence of Gnosticism on the Early Christians. The first ECF's were apologists, defending the faith handed down to them by either the apostles or those immediately after the apostles. Such a Irenaeus. When we look at those writers directly connected to the Apostles we don't find this idea of people going to heaven. As the quotes show the early writers considered that idea Gnostic and refuted it. We see Clement, Paul's traveling companion, mentioned in Philippians 3 as having his name written in the book of life, understands that all the generations from Adam until his day, which was after the resurrection of Christ, were all still in their graves waiting for God's wrath to pass. Likewise we have Irenaeus disciple of Polycarp, disciple of the apostle John, understands that souls don't go to heaven. Irenaeus' disciple Hippolytus also says all souls are kept in Hades unto Christ returns. So, those with direct connections to the apostles are not teaching this. However, there were those who had no connection to the apostles that were more influenced by Gnosticism, especially those of Alexandria. That would include Clement of Alexandria and Origen.
To answer your question, yes, I am quite familiar with David Bercot's work.
I think the main point here is that there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches Christians go to heaven when they die, that is what the Gnostics taught.
Clement of Rome AD. 96
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another.
All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, “Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (Isa. 26:20) Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin 19 the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile.” (Ps. 32:1, 2) This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Ante-Nicene Fathers,
Tertullian, A. D. 190 A treatise on the Soul.
Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls Are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss.
All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich.
Justin Martyr, A.D. 160 Discourse with Trypho
Then I answered, “I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.
Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.
For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him.
For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead,
and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Hippolytus A.D. 205
1. And this is the passage regarding demons.
But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one’s deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment.
But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it. 2. Thus far, then, on the subject of
Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time which God has determined;
Notice here that Hippolytus seems to think that heaven awaits the believer after the resurrection, even so, he still acknowledges that souls are detained in Hades until the resurrection.
Did Jesus descend into Hell? Yes, He did. Here’s how and why:
”Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)” (Ephesians 4:8-10)
During the time of the Old Testament, all the righteous people that died with their faith in God intact, went to a special place reserved for them. It was called
The bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:23). It was actually in Hades (Greek for the Hebrew Sheol – the unseen world of departed spirits). That was the compartment of the righteous, Tartarus being the one where the wicked dead went. Both the bosom of Abraham and Tartarus were in Hell (Hades, Sheol), with a gulf in between (Luke 16:26).
When Jesus died, He went exactly to that place, where the righteous dead were residing and were in a sense – captives (because they were not in Heaven), and He liberated them, taking them with Himself to Heaven after His resurrection. Some of them even got resurrected and appeared to many (Matthew 27:52-53). These are the captives Ephesians talks about – Jesus led them all out of Hell and into Heaven, since the keys of death, hell and the grave were already in Him. After the time of Jesus, every saint that dies, goes straight to Heaven, because Jesus has prepared a place for them there.
Hallelujah!
Source:
http://www.life-of-j...-into-hell.html
Hi Stone,
Ephesians says "He" ascended to heaven, not they.
