Studying the Septuagint (LXX)

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Jim B

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One of the beauties of the LXX is that the Greek it was translated into is very precise, and translated by native Hebrew speakers into a language they were likewise native or practically native to.

Some of the varied English translations from the Hebrew are almost as bad as the Pepsi Resurrection! I compare the different translations on some of these verses, with the footnote, "The Hebrew is uncertain here", well, the translators are the one's who are uncertain, and they are all over the map! Fortunately not too many places!

But that's one of the reasons I like the LXX, I think it settles these matters.

Much love!
Why do you write something nasty like this: "Some of the varied English translations from the Hebrew are almost as bad as the Pepsi Resurrection!" ?

What is it about "The Hebrew is uncertain here" that you don't understand? Translations are made from very old and sometimes conflicting source documents. There is very often no way to convey the words and meaning of the source document into another language. The Septuagint is a perfect example! There are differences between its rendering of the OT and the Hebrew itself. Why? Because there is no one-to-one correspondence between the two. Obvious!

The LXX does not "settle these matters". It is written in a language that is different than ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, so it is obviously not a "pure" translation.
 

marks

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Why do you write something nasty like this: "Some of the varied English translations from the Hebrew are almost as bad as the Pepsi Resurrection!" ?

What is it about "The Hebrew is uncertain here" that you don't understand? Translations are made from very old and sometimes conflicting source documents. There is very often no way to convey the words and meaning of the source document into another language. The Septuagint is a perfect example! There are differences between its rendering of the OT and the Hebrew itself. Why? Because there is no one-to-one correspondence between the two. Obvious!

The LXX does not "settle these matters". It is written in a language that is different than ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, so it is obviously not a "pure" translation.
I'm sorry you found it nasty, I didn't mean it that way.

Much love!
 

marks

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The central message of the holy scriptures are clear in any translation.

These different readings here and there do not change anything of importance. Just trifling things to distract from reading and meditating.
For some, I'm certain! :)

For myself, I'm interested in knowing all I can about the Bible, and what it says.

Much love!
 

marks

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Boy, the enemies of God get a lot of help from Christians…
There are in fact variants between manuscripts, and they got there somehow, right?

We want to know the correct reading.

Hebrews 1:6 KJV
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Brenton LXX
Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Translated from the Masoretic MS,

Deuteronomy 32:43 KJV
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain the same reading in Hebrew as the Greek LXX.

Much love!
 

marks

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What is it about "The Hebrew is uncertain here" that you don't understand? Translations are made from very old and sometimes conflicting source documents. There is very often no way to convey the words and meaning of the source document into another language. The Septuagint is a perfect example! There are differences between its rendering of the OT and the Hebrew itself. Why? Because there is no one-to-one correspondence between the two. Obvious!
I think the differences go beyond that. Entire words and phrases appear in the LXX that are missing in the Masoretic MS. Meanwhile, the LXX is much closer to the source text.

The Masoretic MS from which the KJV was primarily translated is itself a translation by Hebrew scribes, translating from ancient Hebrew to a form of Hebrew with vowel points. The native speakers of the original Hebrew manuscript would have known how to interpret their language not needing vowel points, and this was how the LXX was translated.

In adding vowel points, the Masorete scribes were stating their interpretation of the words over 1000 years after the LXX was translated.

And, as we are seeing, there are some very noteworthy differences between the LXX and Masoretic mss, with the Dead Sea Scrolls adding their witness.

Much love!
 
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Michiah-Imla

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We want to know the correct reading.

I can just hear the Devil now using this tactic when a scripture gets used against him when temptation cometh…

“Yea, are you sure this scripture is the correct reading?”

:IDK:
 

marks

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I can just hear the Devil now using this tactic when a scripture gets used against him when temptation cometh…

“Yea, are you sure this scripture is the correct reading?”

:IDK:
Can you? Maybe you should change who you are listening to!

;)

The best way - IMO - to resist the devil is to ignore him. Besides, most of what we battle with is, I think, our own corrupt flesh, and it's corrupt lusts.

Much love!
 
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Michiah-Imla

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The best way - IMO - to resist the devil is to ignore him.

Impossible.

Unless you are superior to Jesus Christ in tactics…

“And when the tempter came to him...” (Matthew 4:3)

Jesus ignored him?

Nope!

He dealt with him with the sword of the word!
 

marks

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“And when the tempter came to him...” (Matthew 4:3)

Jesus ignored him?

Nope!

He dealt with him with the sword of the word!
Yes, that's true, this was how Jesus responded. And that's a good example for us, you are right!

The truth is . . . I think more that the main source of tempation in our lives is our own flesh, and our fleshy minds. I wonder whether Satan has ever personally addressed me in my life. It's true, we are in a spiritual war, and our sword is His Word.

At the end, what we are called to do, is to Stand.

Much love!

PS . . . Sorry, Back to Topic . . .

:oops:
 
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Ronald Nolette

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It's an example of how difficult it can be to translate some passages, with the need to consider other passages to more fully understand the sayings of those people in those times. Remember that the Hebrew manuscripts for Psalms 40:6 literally says, "Sacrifice and present Thou hast not desired, Ears Thou hast prepared for me, Burnt and sin-offering Thou hast not asked" (YLT). It's not simple to translate "ears you have prepared for me" into an English expression that makes sense and conveys the intended meaning. The Cambridge Bible Notes on Psalms 40:6 add a bit more information:

mine ears hast thou opened] Lit. ears hast thou dug (or, pierced) for me. This unique phrase can hardly be an equivalent for the common expression to ‘uncover’ or ‘open the ear,’ to be explained as a parenthetical exclamation that this truth has been impressed upon the Psalmist by a special revelation. It is best to regard it as a statement preparing the way for Psa_40:7, and placed between the two parallel clauses of Psa_40:6 for poetic effect. God has endowed man with the faculty of hearing, and the endowment implies a corresponding duty of obedience. ‘Ears’ need not be limited to the physical organ, but may include ‘the ears of the heart.’ The same Hebr. word means to hear and to obey. Cp. the repeated appeals to Israel to hear; Deu_4:1; Deu_6:4; etc.The language does not suggest any reference to the custom of boring to the slave’s ear (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17) in the sense, ‘Thou hast bound me to Thyself for perpetual service.’
It's the LXX that translates it as "a body thou hast prepared me", and it is the LXX translation that Paul is quoting in Hebrews 10:5. The Septuagint (LXX) Greek translation was used by the early Church.
Well even though the LXX is correct for Heb. 10%, it mistranslated the original passage. One sh0ould not seek to make sense of a passage by looking at another language, but going back to the original and seeking how it was used by the inspired authors.
 

keithr

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Well even though the LXX is correct for Heb. 10%, it mistranslated the original passage.
10%? Did it mistranslate the passage? In that case the quotation of it in Hebrews 10:5 is also a mistranslation.
One sh0ould not seek to make sense of a passage by looking at another language, but going back to the original and seeking how it was used by the inspired authors.
That's what the LXX translators did - they were 72 Jewish translaters, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They understood their Hebrew language and also Greek.
 
J

Johann

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10%? Did it mistranslate the passage? In that case the quotation of it in Hebrews 10:5 is also a mistranslation.

That's what the LXX translators did - they were 72 Jewish translaters, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They understood their Hebrew language and also Greek.
Have to agree with you on this.
 
J

Johann

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10%? Did it mistranslate the passage? In that case the quotation of it in Hebrews 10:5 is also a mistranslation.

That's what the LXX translators did - they were 72 Jewish translaters, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They understood their Hebrew language and also Greek.
Mine ears hast thou opened - literally, 'thou hast digged.' The sense is, thou hast made me willingly obedient; as in the passage of Jeremiah just quoted, and in Isa_50:5, where also, as here, Messiah is the speaker - "The Lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious." As the way in which he testified his obedience was by the assumption of a human body, the Septuagint version, which Heb_10:5-10 gives inspired sanction to, translate, 'a body thou hast prepared me'-literally, 'fitted for me' [ kateertisoo (G2675) moi (G3427)]. See my note there. The apostle brings out the deep sense latent in the psalm. The ear is the member of the body which symbolizes obedience. Hence, the boring of a bond-servant's ear was the token whereby he signified his desire still to remain his master's servant, when he might be free (Exo_21:6; Deu_15:17). So the Divine Word testified His desire to become the Father's servant by voluntarily assuming a human body, in order to offer the one only expiatory sacrifice which the Father desired, and of which all other 'sacrifices' were but shadowy types, having in themselves nothing acceptable to God. God opened Messiah's internal ear - i:e., framed Him as the sinless man, willing to offer such a wonderful proof of obedience.
JFB

mine ears hast thou opened; or "dug", or "bored" (m); in allusion, as is thought by many, to Exo_21:6; though the phrase rather signifies the formation and excavation of the ear; or the preparing and fitting it for its use; that is, to hearken to the will of his heavenly Father, to become man, offer himself a sacrifice, and suffer and die in the room of his people; to which he became obedient, taking upon him the form of a servant, when found in fashion as a man; and was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross; see Isa_50:4; in Heb_10:5, the words are rendered as by the Septuagint, "but a body hast thou prepared me"; and with it the Arabic and Ethiopic versions agree; and so Apollinarius,
"flesh of mortal generation;''
a part of the body being put for the whole; and which, indeed, is supposed: for unless a body had been prepared for him, his ears could not have been opened; and it was in the body, in human nature, that he was the obedient servant; and this is to be understood, not only of a preparation of this body, in the purposes, counsel, and covenant of God; but chiefly of the formation of it in the womb of the virgin, where it was curiously wrought and prepared by the Holy, Ghost, that he might have something to offer, and in it become, as he did, an offering and a sacrifice to God, of a sweet smelling savour;
burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required; any longer; this body being prepared for the Messiah to be offered up in.
(m) כרית "fodisti", Pagninus, Montanus, Vatablus, Gejerus, Michaelis; "perfodisti", Tigurine version, Musculus, Junius & Tremellius, Piscator; "perforasti", Cocceius.
Gill.

And this information can be found in these commentaries....
 

Ronald Nolette

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10%? Did it mistranslate the passage? In that case the quotation of it in Hebrews 10:5 is also a mistranslation.

That's what the LXX translators did - they were 72 Jewish translaters, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. They understood their Hebrew language and also Greek.
And the LXX suffers from the same problem every translation does- some things do not carry over equally from one language to another. Especially euphemisms and anecdotal phrases and cultural idioms
 

quietthinker

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Studying the Septuagint (LXX)​

ahhhhhh, I think there's better value in studying The Man.
 

Episkopos

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This verse in Job is very telling...the KJV version of it is very obscure...basically meaningless. But the LXX version is very powerful. Notice the difference.

"So that my soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life." Job 7:15 KJV

Compare that to the LXX version...

"You will separate my life from my spirit, and my bones from death" Job 7:15 LXX

The first part of the verse hearkens to the power of the word of God to separate (as a double edged sword Heb. 4:12) our soul and spirit.

In fact, Job 7:15 in the LXX version describes Heb. 4:12 perfectly.

In Heb. 4:12 we read...

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

And what of the joints and marrow? Well, that is the second part of Job 7:15..."and my bones from death"

A better rendering would read "and death from my bones (the power of self)". Here is a rendering of the MSS Hebrew of the last part of the verse that confirms the LXX translation, which for some reason, has been obscured by the English translators.


מָוֶת, מֵעַצְמוֹתָי.

Why is the Hebrew word for bones the power of self? In Hebrew the word.."atsmotay" (my bones, or my essence) in feminine form (atsmah) is a word for "power"...or the strength of the bones. The masculine form is "etsem" and this means bones. But the feminine form takes on other meanings. And these meanings include...essence, power, and self. A quick check in a modern Hebrew dictionary (atsmah) shows that this continues to be the case.

Conclusion: The living word of God is very powerful....to crucify the outer man and the power of the flesh...separating our own soul life (death) from what has been given to us in our spirits (eternal life). And this enables us to walk without any taint of sin...to walk as Jesus walked.
 
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Episkopos

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This verse in Job is very telling...the KJV version of it is very obscure...basically meaningless. But the LXX version is very powerful. Notice the difference.

"So that my soul chooses strangling, and death rather than my life." Job 7:15 KJV

Compare that to the LXX version...

"You will separate my life from my spirit, and my bones from death" Job 7:15 LXX

The first part of the verse hearkens to the power of the word of God to separate (as a double edged sword Heb. 4:12) our soul and spirit.

In fact, Job 7:15 in the LXX version describes Heb. 4:12 perfectly.

In Heb. 4:12 we read...

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

And what of the joints and marrow? Well, that is the second part of Job 7:15..."and my bones from death"

A better rendering would read "and death from my bones (the power of self)". Here is a rendering of the MSS Hebrew of the last part of the verse that confirms the LXX translation, which for some reason, has been obscured by the English translators.


מָוֶת, מֵעַצְמוֹתָי.

Why is the Hebrew word for bones the power of self? In Hebrew the word.."atsmotay" (my bones, or my essence) in feminine form (atsmah) is a word for "power"...or the strength of the bones. The masculine form is "etsem" and this means bones. But the feminine form takes on other meanings. And these meanings include...essence, power, and self. A quick check in a modern Hebrew dictionary (atsmah) shows that this continues to be the case.

Conclusion: The living word of God is very powerful....to crucify the outer man and the power of the flesh...separating our own soul life (death) from what has been given to us in our spirits (eternal life). And this enables us to walk without any taint of sin...to walk as Jesus walked.
For a deeper look into the above we go to PS. 22...with the depiction of Jesus being crucified...with the words..."all my bones are out of joint"..in v. 15' In Hebrew this reads...

ְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי

There's the "atsmotay" (my bones, or, my essence) again...compare with the above post (in purple). Now Jesus was not a sinner...but He went to the cross first so that we could follow Him there and be disconnected...or disjointed... from the power of the flesh. His bones (etsem) represent our own power of self (atsmah). He does the masculine part with the physical bones (etsem) being disjointed ...and we do the feminine part with the power of the flesh (Atsmah) being disjointed. We are to be HIS BRIDE. The joints and marrow (remember Heb. 4:12) being dislocated...as they are crucified...to allow for the spirit to have dominion over the soul. So we are able to enter INTO CHrist to be joined to Him in Zion...to walk as He walked.
 

Pierac

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I don't know why its taken me this long to get to a detailed study of the Septuagint..but that has been my quest so far this year. And it has really paid off!

The Septuagint (LXX) is a very important tool for deeper bible study. The LXX WAS the bible of the early church. Many of the references in the NT that differ from our modern translations are due to the fact that they used the LXX.

Now the LXX is a Greek translation of an ancient Hebrew text from around 250 BC. This is an ancient source for God's word. 70 Jewish scholars were recruited over a hundred year period in the course of the translation. There are many additional books as well. For an example, Jude quotes the Book of Enoch ....which is included in the LXX codex.

Now I was told that there only a few differences between the LXX and the much more recent MSS (Masoretic). This is a little misleading...as I have noticed a number of differences. And these differences are interesting! There is a great depth to uncover when we look at the OT in regard to the NT writings. One must be prepeared to be somewhat shocked at times! ;)

I have both the original Greek and an English translation. of the LXX...and there is an interlinear version available on the internet.

I was wondering if anyone else is interested in looking into the LXX as a means of clarifying many of the NT sayings...as well as being a help in doctrinal accuracy. Or, at least, are interested in some of my findings...

<>< :)
Yea... Let's have some fun...

MASORETIC TEXT O.T. 900 A.D.
The oldest translations of the ENTIRE Masoret Tanakh tend to come from the Leningrad Codex of 1008 AD. There's another from 925 AD, but nothing before that date has all the books of the Tanakh. So our oldest Masoret texts are from a rather recent date. There are a few Torahs from further back than that. There are partial scrolls from further back than that. But often the translation we generally get is from a text that is only about 1000 years old.

Let's look at some of the key differences between the LXX and the MT where the LXX seems to be superior.
MASORETIC TEXT

AGE OF LEVITICAL SERVICE
Numbers 4: 3, 23, 30, 35, 39
the ages of the Levites qualified to minister in the temple was between ages 30 to 50

Numbers 8: 24

the ages are between 25 and 50

In the Septuagint however, both chapters say between 25 and 50 each time. There is no discrepancy.



How Many Horsemen?

2 Sam 8:4 David captured from him 1,700 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers; and David hamstrung the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.

1Ch 18:4 David took from him 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.

LXX Agrees with both... It reads: 7,000 in both passages
1Ch 18:4 David took from him 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.

How many years of famine?
2Sa 24:13 So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, "Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider and see what answer I shall return to Him who sent me."

1Ch 21:12 either three years of famine, or three months to be swept away before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the LORD, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.' Now, therefore, consider what answer I shall return to Him who sent me."

The LXX reads: 3 years famine in both
(3 years) 2 Sam 24:13- And Gad went in to David, and told him, and said to him, Choose one of these things to befall thee, whether there shall come upon thee for three years famine in thy land; or that thou shouldest flee three months before thine enemies, and they should pursue thee; or that there should be for three days mortality in thy land. Now then decide, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(3 years) 1 Chr 21:12 either three years of famine, or that thou shouldest flee three months from the face of thine enemies, and the sword of thine enemies shall be employed to destroy thee, or that the sword of the Lord and pestilence should be three days in the land, and the angel of the Lord shall be destroying in all the inheritance of Israel. And now consider what I shall answer to him that sent the message.


How many Foremen?

1Ki 5:16 besides Solomon's 3,300 chief deputies who were over the project and who ruled over the people who were doing the work.

2Ch 2:18 He appointed 70,000 of them to carry loads and 80,000 to quarry stones in the mountains and 3,600 supervisors to make the people work.

LXX reads: 3,600 in both passages.

1 Ki 5:16 besides the rulers that were appointed over the works of Solomon, there were three thousand six hundred masters who wrought in the works.

2 Chr 2:18 And he made of them seventy thousand burden-bearers, and eighty thousand hewers of stone, and three thousand six hundred taskmasters over the people.​
MASORETIC TEXT

Numbers 4: 3, 23, 30, 35, 39

the ages of the Levites qualified to minister in the temple was between ages 30 to 50


Numbers 8: 24


the ages are between 25 and 50


In the Septuagint however, both chapters say between 25 and 50 each time. There is no discrepancy.


How Many Horsemen?

2 Sam 8:4 (1,700 horsemen)
2Sa 8:4
David captured from him 1,700 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers; and David hamstrung the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.

1Ch 18:4 David took from him 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.

LXX Agrees with Both

1Ch 18:4 David took from him 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.


This is just the tip of the ice berg...

Now... Have some fun....
















 

Robert Gwin

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I don't know why its taken me this long to get to a detailed study of the Septuagint..but that has been my quest so far this year. And it has really paid off!

The Septuagint (LXX) is a very important tool for deeper bible study. The LXX WAS the bible of the early church. Many of the references in the NT that differ from our modern translations are due to the fact that they used the LXX.

Now the LXX is a Greek translation of an ancient Hebrew text from around 250 BC. This is an ancient source for God's word. 70 Jewish scholars were recruited over a hundred year period in the course of the translation. There are many additional books as well. For an example, Jude quotes the Book of Enoch ....which is included in the LXX codex.

Now I was told that there only a few differences between the LXX and the much more recent MSS (Masoretic). This is a little misleading...as I have noticed a number of differences. And these differences are interesting! There is a great depth to uncover when we look at the OT in regard to the NT writings. One must be prepeared to be somewhat shocked at times! ;)

I have both the original Greek and an English translation. of the LXX...and there is an interlinear version available on the internet.

I was wondering if anyone else is interested in looking into the LXX as a means of clarifying many of the NT sayings...as well as being a help in doctrinal accuracy. Or, at least, are interested in some of my findings...

<>< :)
Remember E, the original was in Greek, and translators did alter the words as have all Bible translators. You are absolutely correct, it was the Bible Jesus quoted from therefore was approved by God at the time, and contained His word of truth.