A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Wrangler]

Ignoring scripture again.....Jesus clearly stated that he existed before his human birth

But being a man, this means all men exist before human birth. OR it means Scripture is wrong in identifying him as a man.

 

[Wrangler]

Or perhaps you do...and how sending his “only begotten son” was the solution.
What is “original sin” to you, Wrangler? How does Jesus' sacrifice fix that?

You do like to keep changing the subject, pivot from one thing to another. We have arrived at a point in discovering the truth about JW doctrine; The JW works based doctrine is so stringent that even devout and faithful JW's (of the past) are not saved.

yes, believing what is not true is a salvation issue.

This is because all doctrine is a salvation issue for JW; Such things as celebrating Christmas and believing Jesus died on a cross disqualify one from salvation. (Please confirm with a simple yes or no, not a dozen paragraphs).

 

[RLT63]

View attachment 29372

Not rocket science.....is it?

That’s over his hands

 

[RLT63]

What is the spirit? What does this word (spirit) mean in Greek, rather than the meaning Christendom wants to give it as a synonym for soul?
The soul and the spirit are two entirely different words with two entirely different meanings.
Strongs defines "spirit" this way....

"πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit".
So if the primary definition of "spirit" is our "breath"......that which keeps the soul (body) alive, then Stephen was asking Jesus to receive his life as the one charged by God with the resurrection.....giving back the spirit (breath) of life in the same way that he made Adam alive with the "breath (spirit) of life" in the beginning.

Those described in 1 Thess 4:17 are not the great crowd.....they are the elect who are left alive on earth at the coming of the Lord....These will not need to sleep in death as the other members of the elect have from the first century onward. They will be instantly transformed and "caught away to meet the Lord in the air". Read the whole passage....v13-17.

Again this is Paul speaking of the elect collectively....
"One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; "
This is the "body of Christ" "called to the one hope" of all going to heaven.....it is their "calling" (Heb 3:1)
Not all have the "heavenly calling".
Paul wrote...
"to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (1 Cor 1:2)
Two groups here....both have Jesus as their "Lord".

The spirits in prison were the demon angels who rebelled in Noah's day....not the spirits of dead people.
2 Peter 2:4...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

Jesus, after his resurrection in the spirit, went to pronounce that judgment message to those wicked spirits in Tartarus, which is not "hell" as many Bibles mistranslate.

Why does spirit mean one thing for Stephen and something else for Jesus? What you are describing with Stephen is the new age teaching that we are all part of God and that part goes back to God when we die. Was Jesus just a breath when he was resurrected?

 

[Wrangler]

The route to eternal life for a JW is long and tortuous, passing through various stages with a big final exam at the end that the Bible tells them most will fail! Their religion is through works, not faith. JWs cannot know they have eternal life until the end of the 1000 year reign when they must pass the final ‘test’ set out in Revelation 20:8.

I hope our resident expert in JW dogmas, @Aunty Jane, can confirm the truth of this with a simple 3 or 4 word sentence (and not 12 paragraphs):

1. That is true.
2. That is NOT true.

For me, the ‘final test’ is less profound than the obvious IDOLATRY of knowledge, in a works based doctrine that requires ever elusive ‘right beliefs’ where one can never truly be fully confident to gain salvation.

Her implying that JW’s of the past (though devout and faithful) are not saved due to having the wrong belief in Christmas and how Jesus was crucified is absolutely stunning. I never of such denominational self-condemnation. Have you?

 

[Mr E]

I hope our resident expert in JW dogmas, @Aunty Jane, can confirm the truth of this with a simple 3 or 4 word sentence (and not 12 paragraphs):

1. That is true.
2. That is NOT true.

For me, the ‘final test’ is less profound than the obvious IDOLATRY of knowledge, in a works based doctrine that requires ever elusive ‘right beliefs’ where one can never truly be fully confident to gain salvation.

Her implying that JW’s of the past (though devout and faithful) are not saved due to having the wrong belief in Christmas and how Jesus was crucified is absolutely stunning. I never of such denominational self-condemnation. Have you?

Questions plagiarized by @RLT63 from here>>>

10 questions to ask a Jehovah’s Witness

Don't hide next time the Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking. Invite them in for a conversation instead! Barry Amor from Reachout Trust suggests 10 ways to engage

www.premierchristianity.com

The route to eternal life for a JW is long and tortuous, passing through various stages with a big final exam at the end that the Bible tells them most will fail! Their religion is through works, not faith. JWs cannot know they have eternal life until the end of the 1000 year reign when they must pass the final ‘test’ set out in Revelation 20:8.

---well that's embarrassing.

 

[RLT63]

Questions plagiarized by @RLT63 from here>>>

10 questions to ask a Jehovah’s Witness

Don't hide next time the Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking. Invite them in for a conversation instead! Barry Amor from Reachout Trust suggests 10 ways to engage

www.premierchristianity.com

---well that's embarrassing.

For who? Is the information incorrect? What questions? It was a statement not a question.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But being a man, this means all men exist before human birth. OR it means Scripture is wrong in identifying him as a man.

O my goodness.....are you serious?
I answered this question in some detail from the Bible, and still you carry on like it was never brought to your attention.
Do you have a comprehension problem? I need to know so that I don’t waste more time rehashing things that I have already explained to someone I assumed had intelligence and understood the Bible when he read it......? Why do you ignore things you cannot defend? Insults about my brotherhood always seem to substitute for an honest answer from you. Attack is a poor defence.

In every challenge you have put to me, I have answered with logical and scriptural evidence for what I believe.....go back over our dialogue in this thread and see how many issues I have raised for you that have gone completely unanswered except for put downs of JW’s because you think we cannot possibly be right.....I have news for you....how many of the Jews clamoring for Jesus’ death believed he was right?
Jesus true disciples were going to be hated and persecuted for being what Christ commanded them to be. (John 15:18-21) Are you just fulfilling prophesy?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You do like to keep changing the subject, pivot from one thing to another. We have arrived at a point in discovering the truth about JW doctrine; The JW works based doctrine is so stringent that even devout and faithful JW's (of the past) are not saved.

Adding detail pertinent to the subject is not changing the subject.
We do not have a “works based doctrine” we have a scripturally based doctrine where faith and works go hand in hand......(James 2:18) I have told you this already.....why do you act as if it wasn’t addressed?

JW’s of the past we’re in the same situation as the apostles were when Jesus walked the earth....they knew a little and gained more knowledge as time went on. God reveals knowledge progressively....he always has.

Jesus appointed his “faithful and wise servant” to “feed” his entire household their “food at the proper time”...so we get what we need, when we need it. (Matthew 24:45) Who is that “faithful and wise servant” to you Wrangler? Will I just hear crickets again?

This is because all doctrine is a salvation issue for JW; Such things as celebrating Christmas and believing Jesus died on a cross disqualify one from salvation. (Please confirm with a simple yes or no, not a dozen paragraphs).

Not ALL doctrine is a salvation issue.....but the important ones are....those that identify who Jehovah is....who Jesus is....and what role God’s holy spirit plays in the outworking of his will and purpose.

Baptism is also an important component in salvation.....we cannot be “Christians” without it. But is simply being dunked in water, often based on emotion rather than knowledge, true baptism?......it’s what precedes it that counts with God. Like a marriage there is a period of engagement where the two get to know one another, so that when the marriage occurs, it is confirming a commitment that has already taken place.

Belief in an immortal soul, when the scriptures do not teach such a thing, is also a salvation issue because to accept that God would separate some to go to heaven, whilst sending others to a fiery hell to be tortured forever is to insult the character of the loving God represented by Jesus Christ.

Participating in pagan celebrations when we are told NOT to touch things that are spiritually “unclean” is direct disobedience, (2 Cor 6:14-18) so again we believe it is a salvation issue....despite the pretty lights, the feasting and the presents around the pagan “Christmas tree”.....and the lies about Santa Claus told to children. The Easter bunny is right up there and they already know it is pagan to it’s bootstraps, but still they carry on like it doesn’t matter.......”faithful in what is least”....that is what it means, because if we were faithful in the smaller things, we would never even consider accepting what Christendom promotes as true worship.

It’s your choice to participate and to believe in whatever you wish....but the one thing you will never be able to claim is ignorance of the truth. I have done my job. I have told you the truth.....but the old saying is true....”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

Your need to have simple “yes” or “no” answers to complex questions betrays a lack of depth to your faith.
It is obvious to me that you cannot be told anything that disagrees with your own mindset without the put downs that follow, so I have no more to say in this thread to someone who seems to have the concentration span of a goldfish. I am done with you here....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Questions plagiarized by @RLT63 from here>>>

10 questions to ask a Jehovah’s Witness

Don't hide next time the Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking. Invite them in for a conversation instead! Barry Amor from Reachout Trust suggests 10 ways to engage

www.premierchristianity.com

---well that's embarrassing.

What's embarrassing?

 

[Aunty Jane]

For who? Is the information incorrect? What questions? It was a statement not a question.

I have to go now, but I am anxious to answer every one of those bogus questions to show how much error is based on Christendom's beliefs as compared to ours. Scripture will be used to address these so called "questions to ask JW's". This really made me smile.....

Later.....

 

[Wrangler]

O my goodness.....are you serious?

Yes.

Do you have a comprehension problem? I need to know so that I don’t waste more time rehashing things

I have a time constraint problem. You seem to think writing a dozen paragraphs is necessary to answer my simple questions. Just an Appeal to Diversion.

The 12 paragraph mandate posts is a real problem. It makes you extremely ineffective but we talked about this MANY times before.

Simple question: is Jesus a man, yes or no?

 

[RLT63]

I have to go now, but I am anxious to answer every one of those bogus questions to show how much error is based on Christendom's beliefs as compared to ours. Scripture will be used to address these so called "questions to ask JW's". This really made me smile.....

Later.....

By Christendom do you mean Christian and does that mean you don’t consider yourselves Christians? Or do you consider JWs the only true Christians?

 

[RLT63]

Adding detail pertinent to the subject is not changing the subject.
We do not have a “works based doctrine” we have a scripturally based doctrine where faith and works go hand in hand......(James 2:18) I have told you this already.....why do you act as if it wasn’t addressed?

JW’s of the past we’re in the same situation as the apostles were when Jesus walked the earth....they knew a little and gained more knowledge as time went on. God reveals knowledge progressively....he always has.

Jesus appointed his “faithful and wise servant” to “feed” his entire household their “food at the proper time”...so we get what we need, when we need it. (Matthew 24:45) Who is that “fairhful and wise servant” to you Wrangler? Will I just hear crickets again?

Not ALL doctrine is a salvation issue.....but the important ones are....those that identify who Jehovah is....who Jesus is....and what role God’s holy spirit plays in the outworking of his will and purpose.

Baptism is also an important component in salvation.....we cannot be “Christians” without it. But is simply being dunked in water, often based on emotion rather than knowledge, true baptism?......it’s what precedes it that counts with God. Like a marriage there is a period of engagement where the two get to know one another, so that when the marriage occurs, it is confirming a commitment that has already taken place.

Belief in an immortal soul, when the scriptures do not teach such a thing, is also a salvation issue because to accept that God would separate some to go to heaven, whilst sending others to a fiery hell to be tortured forever is to insult the character of the loving God represented by Jesus Christ.

Participating in pagan celebrations when we are told NOT to touch things that are spiritually “unclean” is direct disobedience, (2 Cor 6:14-18) so again we believe it is a salvation issue....despite the pretty lights, the feasting and the presents around the pagan “Christmas tree”.....and the lies about Santa Claus told to children. The Easter bunny is right up there and they already know it is pagan to it’s bootstraps, but still they carry on like it doesn’t matter.......”faithful in what is least”....that is what it means, because if we were faithful in the smaller things, we would never even consider accepting what Christendom promotes as true worship.

It’s your choice to participate and to believe in whatever you wish....but the one thing you will never be able to claim is ignorance of the truth. I have done my job. I have told you the truth.....but the old saying is true....”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

Your need to have simple “yes” or “no” answers to complex questions betrays a lack of depth to your faith.
It is obvious to me that you cannot be told anything that disagrees with your own mindset without the put downs that follow, so I have no more to say in this thread to someone who seems to have the concentration span of a goldfish. I am done with you here....

@Aunty Jane said “Jesus appointed his “faithful and wise servant” to “feed” his entire household their “food at the proper time”...so we get what we need, when we need it. (Matthew 24:45) Who is that “fairhful and wise servant” to you Wrangler? Will I just hear crickets again?” Why do you take this parable literally but not Lazarus and the rich man?

 

[RLT63]

I have to go now, but I am anxious to answer every one of those bogus questions to show how much error is based on Christendom's beliefs as compared to ours. Scripture will be used to address these so called "questions to ask JW's". This really made me smile.....

Later.....

I didn’t post “Questions to ask JWs” I used a statement from that site so answer the questions for your own pleasure if you feel like it, I didn’t post the questions, that’s why I didn’t post the source

 

[Wrangler]

There's that IDOLATRY of knowledge again.

Defining heresy as a salvation issue, you don't hold that every point of doctrine is a matter of heresy, a matter of it being a salvation issue, do you ?

yes, believing what is not true is a salvation issue.

We do not have a “works based doctrine” we have a scripturally based doctrine where faith and works go hand in hand.....

Now, you are contradicting yourself/playing word games. Sad

 

[Wrangler]

Who is that “fairhful and wise servant” to you Wrangler? Will I just hear crickets again?”

You’re asking me? I must have missed when you asked me before.

 

[RLT63]

You’re asking me? I must have missed when you asked me before.

No. I was asking @Aunty Jane why she takes this parable literally. She asked the question of you I just quoted her.

 

[Mr E]

What's embarrassing?

- copy/paste verbatim from a site without citation.

 

[RLT63]

- copy/paste verbatim from a site without citation.

What’s embarrassing is that the issues brought up could be addressed with a simple yes or no but no one seems able to do that. “
“I hope our resident expert in JW dogmas, @Aunty Jane, can confirm the truth of this with a simple 3 or 4 word sentence (and not 12 paragraphs):

1. That is true.
2. That is NOT true.”