...

[Nancy]

Did you know that all over in the catacombs icons of Jesus are shown with Jesus leading the sheep with a goat on his shoulders, that is what the early church say in Jesus.

So, you see no difference between sheep and goats...not even in Rev. 20 and 21??
You can follow catacomb icons all you like, I'd rather the scriptures. And, below shows that MANY will walk to their own destruction, and few will enter. Count the cost of truly following Him, and you will find that it costs us everything we have.
In your world, people can live like the devil and still be saved. It is not Gods will that any should perish but His word tells us MANY will not receive His words, His commands.

13" Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…"
Matthew 7:13-14

 

[jeff saunders]

So, you see no difference between sheep and goats...not even in Rev. 20 and 21??
You can follow catacomb icons all you like, I'd rather the scriptures. And, below shows that MANY will walk to their own destruction, and few will enter. Count the cost of truly following Him, and you will find that it costs us everything we have.
In your world, people can live like the devil and still be saved. It is not Gods will that any should perish but His word tells us MANY will not receive His words, His commands.

13" Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…"
Matthew 7:13-14

There is a big difference between the sheep and the goats, The sheep are part of Gods family they will reign and rule with Jesus on his throne, the goats are the subjects of that kingdom and will go to the Lake of Fire which will burn all that is not of God away ( its going to be painful weeping and gnashing of the teeth ) but it is not unending, so no those who did not follow Jesus don't get away with anything just like Jesus said they will be thrown into prison till every penny is paid. I can find no scripture that says you can only bend the knee if your mortal body is alive. Have you ever asked yourself why God would create people who he knew would reject him and he would have to torcher them forever and death and sin would never be destroyed and the screams and agony of the creation, he says he loves , he has to listen to for all the rest of time. when if he is truly all powerful would he not make a way to save his whole creation as he has said his will is and that is his desire is? maybe we in the western tradition have made the same mistake the Jews did and we don't know Gods good news Jesus really is the savior of the world maybe his death and resurrection really was more powerful than mans will, maybe when he said its my will that none parish he really was telling the truth, and we in the western tradition believe satan and sin and mans will is more powerful than Jesus death on the cross. I for one can not believe that when scripture says," were sin abounds Gods grace abounds more " that God did not tell the truth. If you can live with that thats ok but I can no longer believe the western tradition.

 

[Nancy]

There is a big difference between the sheep and the goats, The sheep are part of Gods family they will reign and rule with Jesus on his throne, the goats are the subjects of that kingdom and will go to the Lake of Fire which will burn all that is not of God away ( its going to be painful weeping and gnashing of the teeth ) but it is not unending, so no those who did not follow Jesus don't get away with anything just like Jesus said they will be thrown into prison till every penny is paid. I can find no scripture that says you can only bend the knee if your mortal body is alive. Have you ever asked yourself why God would create people who he knew would reject him and he would have to torcher them forever and death and sin would never be destroyed and the screams and agony of the creation, he says he loves , he has to listen to for all the rest of time. when if he is truly all powerful would he not make a way to save his whole creation as he has said his will is and that is his desire is? maybe we in the western tradition have made the same mistake the Jews did and we don't know Gods good news Jesus really is the savior of the world maybe his death and resurrection really was more powerful than mans will, maybe when he said its my will that none parish he really was telling the truth, and we in the western tradition believe satan and sin and mans will is more powerful than Jesus death on the cross. I for one can not believe that when scripture says," were sin abounds Gods grace abounds more " that God did not tell the truth. If you can live with that thats ok but I can no longer believe the western tradition.

Just because it is God's will that none should perish, does not mean that many will. Do you think it is His will that people murder, rape, torture, abuse others? Of course not, but it still happens. We have free will to "choose this day whom you will serve". As far as eternal suffering goes, the word eternal can also mean an age, a generation or an era. I do not see God enjoying any to literally burn forever for Him and those in Paradice to enjoy watching.
Perish means just that, perish per·ish:
[ˈperiSH]
VERB

1. suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way:
   "a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
   SIMILAR:
   die
   lose one's life
   be killed
   fall
   expire
   meet one's death
   • suffer complete ruin or destruction:
     "the old regime had to perish"
     SIMILAR:
     come to an end
     die (away)
     be destroyed
     cease to exist
   • (of rubber, a foodstuff, or other organic substance) lose its normal qualities; rot or decay:
     "most domestic building was in wood and has perished"
   
   
   But then, that is a whole other thread...

 

[WalterandDebbie]

2-21-23

How Are We Ultimately Saved?​

Especially as it pertains to final salvation, so many of us live in a fog of confusion. James saw in his day those who were treating “faith alone” as a doctrine that claimed you could be justified by faith which produced no good works. And he vehemently said No to such faith.

• Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
• It is like a body with no breath (James 2:26).
• It is like an energy with no effect (James 2:20), and no completion (James 2:22).
• If there is justifying faith, it has works (James 2:17).

So, he says, “I will show you my faith by my works” (2:18). The works will come from faith.

“Faith alone doesn’t mean the same thing when applied to justification, sanctification, and final salvation.”

Paul would affirm all of this because he said in Galatians 5:6, “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.” The only kind of faith that counts for justification is the kind that produces love — the kind that bears the fruit of love. The faith which alone justifies is never alone, but always bearing transforming fruit. So, when James says these controversial words, “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24), I take him to mean not by faith which is alone, but which shows itself by works.

Paul calls this effect or fruit or evidence of faith the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:11) and the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26). These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation. No holiness, no heaven (Hebrews 12:14). So, we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone.

Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin (Romans 8:13) and the pursuit of holiness (Hebrews 12:14). Mortification of sin, sanctification in holiness. But what makes that possible and pleasing to God? We put sin to death and we pursue holiness from a justified position where God is one hundred percent for us — already — by faith alone.

Love, Walter

 

[jeff saunders]

Just because it is God's will that none should perish, does not mean that many will. Do you think it is His will that people murder, rape, torture, abuse others? Of course not, but it still happens. We have free will to "choose this day whom you will serve". As far as eternal suffering goes, the word eternal can also mean an age, a generation or an era. I do not see God enjoying any to literally burn forever for Him and those in Paradice to enjoy watching.
Perish means just that, perish per·ish:
[ˈperiSH]
VERB

1. suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way:
   "a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
   SIMILAR:
   die
   lose one's life
   be killed
   fall
   expire
   meet one's death
   
   • suffer complete ruin or destruction:
     "the old regime had to perish"
     SIMILAR:
     come to an end
     die (away)
     be destroyed
     cease to exist
   • (of rubber, a foodstuff, or other organic substance) lose its normal qualities; rot or decay:
     "most domestic building was in wood and has perished"
   
   
   But then, that is a whole other thread...

Yes the word translated eternal Aionios does refer to an age not eternal that is true and that is why I believe that when scripture says things like , its Gods will that none parish it is a true statement or that Jesus is the savior of the world he meant it. or when scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord he meant it, or when Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me and there are even more that say the same thing. Yes rape ,murder , torture ect do happen we live in a fallen world but that is why Jesus came to give us life here and now not just in the age to come, could you imagine what this world would look like if everyone followed Jesus on this earth now , yes the curse would still be in play but most of mans problem comes from people not following Jesus now, unfortunately most people will have the sickness of sin keeping them blind to the love of Jesus and will have to learn in the next age after the things that are keeping them from seeing Jesus are burned away so they can see Jesus for who he is and then they will bend the knee and confess with the tongue that Jesus is Lord but at that point they have sold their inheritance for a bowl of soup, they lose their reward but they don't stay in the Lake of Fire for ever and at some point the last enemy that is concord is death and after death is no more and sin is no more God will be all in all 1Cor 15 Jesus 100% satan 0%

 

[Patrick1966]

Can someone explain to me the "second death" in Revelation and how that fits with universal salvation? Thanks in advance.

 

[Jack]

Hi everyone. To preface, I am a Christian Universalist. Faith alone in Jesus Christ only saves you. God will save everyone; all people will go to Heaven.

You will be held accountable for everyone you lead to Hell fire.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jack]

Hello Jack my friend.

I tell people to believe in Christ to be saved, therefore with this truth, I have brought people before Christ to be saved and go to Heaven.

eternal αἰώνιον (aiōnion)
Strong's 166: From aion; perpetual

aionios = pertaining to an age. How long is one age? Certainly not forever. Ages continue, from one to the next, yet if someone were to be punished in a singular age, it would not continue to the next. This verse Matthew 25:41 denoates a punishment with a limited amount of time.


Here's a good study on the topic, I'll take a quote from it

https://tentmaker.org/articles/Matthew-25-46-Commentary-Amirault.html

Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings.

Now, looking at the Rev 20:10 verse you provided

Revelation 20:10 - Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

www.biblehub.com

forever
εἰς (eis)
Preposition
Strong's 1519: A primary preposition; to or into, of place, time, or purpose; also in adverbial phrases.

[and]
τῶν (tōn)
Article - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

ever.
αἰώνων (aiōnōn)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 165: From the same as aei; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity; by implication, the world; specially a Messianic period

How long is a period, Jack my friend? Certainly not forever. Specifically, to have something by "forever and forever" is a contradiction, because an infinite amount of time cannot continue after an infinite amount of time, because the first initial amount of time would take up all the rooom.

So that part that you bolded, is good to look into. Why does scripture call it "forever and ever" with ever at the end? Because the original translation refers to ages and ages

Again, here's a good quote from the study above on Tentmaker that I will quote here

If aion means eternity, why does this word appear in the plural form? Why does it appear in double constructs such as aion of the aion, aion of the aions, and aions of the aions? Is Greek such a confusing language that one can take several different variations of the same word and simple stick them all under "everlasting" or "forever and ever" or is Greek much more exact than our modern Bible translators make it appear to be?

But here's a specific study on "forever and ever" too Jack my friend

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

A website with tons of info and teachings on Christian universalism; (also known as TURA, Ultimate Reconciliation, etc) as well as Biblical word studies, church reformation, law/grace and many other subjects. Hosted by Tentmaker Ministries/Gary Amirault.

tentmaker.org

They have translated this Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon":

"for the eons of the eons." Concordant Literal New Testament

"for the ages of the ages." Young's Literal, and others​

"for the aeons of the aeons." The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson

"unto the ages of the ages.: Rotherham's Emphasized, and others

"through the ages of the ages." The Holy Bible in Modern English

Ages plural, but how many ages will their punishment last? Certainly not for all ages, but rather, a specific, yet plural, amount. Because otherwise, it would have to say "for every age" or "for all ages" not "this specific amount of ages".

It's like if I gave you fruit, like an apple. Here's some apples. How many are there? A specific plural amount. But, if I wanted to give you an infinite amount of apples, I would say "here's an endless amount of apples!". Yet, scripture clearly tells us the duration of punishment is limited to a certain amount of ages, and once those ages have passed, the punishment ends. Why? Because eventually they believe in Christ and are thus permanently saved

God bless Jack my friend! Please have a wonderful day :)​

You don't believe in eternal life?

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Same Greek word!