Not ignored. Not despised.
Im actually thinking on it.
Trying to place it all along with my experience of having rest from my flesh…yet still not entering into His love yet…
Reading the passage and pondering.
Sanctification is not a Process
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Im actually thinking on it.
Trying to place it all along with my experience of having rest from my flesh…yet still not entering into His love yet…
Reading the passage and pondering.
In response to the OP, I would say "it's partly a process, partly a faith".
Martin Luther King Jr said "faith is taking the first step, when you don't see the whole staircase"
I think we need to have faith, that we don't understand the process (in its entirety).
Martin Luther King Jr said "faith is taking the first step, when you don't see the whole staircase"
I think we need to have faith, that we don't understand the process (in its entirety).
This debate sounds a lot like the debate between an evolutionist mindset and one that is creationist.
On one side of the debate you have the evolutionists who believe that life evolves across species...even developing from say ...a rock...all the way to a human being.
On the other side of the debate you have the creationists who see evolution as an adaptation to an environment within the species.
I am of the latter persuasion. I don't believe that one species evolves into another. God has created species to be distinct from each other. An insect never becomes a man. A rock never becomes an insect.
For example....take a man and put him in arctic conditions. He will develop an immunity to the cold over time.
Take another man and put him in tropical conditions. He will adapt to the heat over time.
What never happens is that to the tropical conditions become arctic...or the arctic conditions become tropical. It's not the environment that evolves...its the person within in it that does.
In the church we have people that believe that what is unholy can evolve into holiness. I see these as evolutionists....thinking that within themselves lies the ability to be transformed into a fully different species...from sinner to saint. The faith that is nurtured here is that one can evolve one's own environment..from one location to another.
And then there are those who see God doing things on the creation level...with us adapting to that new environment.
Holiness is only found in one place...in God...in Christ. God's presence creates an environment of holiness...that a person adapts into once he/she is translated...or carried into...that environment. Once a person is found to be in holiness...or as Paul says...that I may be FOUND in Christ.....there is a process of maturing on that level.
But that doesn't mean that a person living in an environment that is not holy...can evolve the same way as one who is in the holy environment. One doesn't evolve across species or force an environment change through a process of evolution in ourselves. We need to move into the new environment to make a new level of adaptation possible.
One does not evolve one's environment...only one's adaptation or suitability to the environment we find ourselves in.
Can we adapt ourselves in an environment that is not holy? Well, that's the problem I'm seeing in the church. We limit ourselves to a non-holy environment and then adapt our ways to that...defending that...limiting our faith, to that level. For transformative growth, what we need is a new migration into a new environment. We need to get out of the wilderness environment...and move into a Promised land environment.
Short of that, we adapt ourselves to something less than what we are called into and then make the further mistake of thinking that we can change that environment (the wilderness) into something it is not. That somehow, the desert sand can flow with milk and honey through an evolutionary process that is found in us.
On one side of the debate you have the evolutionists who believe that life evolves across species...even developing from say ...a rock...all the way to a human being.
On the other side of the debate you have the creationists who see evolution as an adaptation to an environment within the species.
I am of the latter persuasion. I don't believe that one species evolves into another. God has created species to be distinct from each other. An insect never becomes a man. A rock never becomes an insect.
For example....take a man and put him in arctic conditions. He will develop an immunity to the cold over time.
Take another man and put him in tropical conditions. He will adapt to the heat over time.
What never happens is that to the tropical conditions become arctic...or the arctic conditions become tropical. It's not the environment that evolves...its the person within in it that does.
In the church we have people that believe that what is unholy can evolve into holiness. I see these as evolutionists....thinking that within themselves lies the ability to be transformed into a fully different species...from sinner to saint. The faith that is nurtured here is that one can evolve one's own environment..from one location to another.
And then there are those who see God doing things on the creation level...with us adapting to that new environment.
Holiness is only found in one place...in God...in Christ. God's presence creates an environment of holiness...that a person adapts into once he/she is translated...or carried into...that environment. Once a person is found to be in holiness...or as Paul says...that I may be FOUND in Christ.....there is a process of maturing on that level.
But that doesn't mean that a person living in an environment that is not holy...can evolve the same way as one who is in the holy environment. One doesn't evolve across species or force an environment change through a process of evolution in ourselves. We need to move into the new environment to make a new level of adaptation possible.
One does not evolve one's environment...only one's adaptation or suitability to the environment we find ourselves in.
Can we adapt ourselves in an environment that is not holy? Well, that's the problem I'm seeing in the church. We limit ourselves to a non-holy environment and then adapt our ways to that...defending that...limiting our faith, to that level. For transformative growth, what we need is a new migration into a new environment. We need to get out of the wilderness environment...and move into a Promised land environment.
Short of that, we adapt ourselves to something less than what we are called into and then make the further mistake of thinking that we can change that environment (the wilderness) into something it is not. That somehow, the desert sand can flow with milk and honey through an evolutionary process that is found in us.
Last edited:
Okay. I tried. I can’t. I can’t figure it out. It’s beyond both my experience and my knowledge. I’m not ignoring it, I’m not despising it. I‘m going to be thinking about it probably every day. Maybe there’s some step I’m missing because I haven’t seen or known it. Or maybe it’s only understood by the one who _____________?
Im going to read about Joshua and see if I gain anything by it.
And here’s another thing. I really WANT to encourage those struggling so hard as I was. I WANT them to know God will calm their hideously shrieking flesh that they are controlled by and made miserable by. I WANT them to know how Satan or demons and other people control them by shaking them up THROUGH their emotions. I want them to know something is available so they will be encouraged in asking and waiting.
But there’s also this feeling I get that some use what others share just to…fine tune their resume. To…make themselves look more real and authentic. Ive seen this happen. You say something about something you know and they somehow take it and use it as if they know it already to make their facade look more…harmless? It’s…it feels awful. It feels like using what’s real to make a counterfeit more believable or…to make a wolf look like a sheep or a tare to look like wheat. It’s really yucky.
Last edited:
Chuckling here. Of course you know the verse that came to mind! The one that says God can make worshipers from these rocks.
I never thought of it that way…makes perfect sense though…it makes me think of the man who was dying who said, I won’t go out and in any more.
Maturing would be the process of going out and in of walking in the Spirit…
Last edited:
If the Lord is pleased with us, he will lead us into that land.
Because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to
Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
Out of 12 men chosen to observe the land, only two entered in.
Two men out of an entire generation.
This made so much sense - I wish I had discovered your sense, so long ago!
You are right, the mistake is to think we can start the change ourselves - Christ has already started the change and we need to agree with God, as He works it out in us.
What's that greek word - pneuma? That needs to be flowing in us, an Evolution that does not have pneuma simply dies!
I'm not saying if we have pneuma, we can do what we like, I'm saying because we have pneuma we will be divinely inspired (in principle to follow our inspiration through).
I pray the Holy Spirit, guides us in this respect.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The demonization of white people by certain groups who are dominant in our education system, the media, entertainment and control most of the public discussion forums in America today is reminiscent of the demonization of Jews by the German Nazis and the bourgeoisie by the Russian communists. The rhetoric of hate against white people because of their perceived privilege is reminiscent of things said by the people above about the groups they hated as well.
The only thing we seem to learn from history is that we don't learn from history and the consequences can be catastrophic!
With everything that is happening in America today, especially since the 2020 Presidential election, I see this move to demonize white people as a divide and conquer/power grab scheme by leftists politicians and progressives who want to destroy America as we know it and create a new system, which will serve them, yet result in a loss of rights and freedoms for the rest of us. This new system will also result in Christian persecution. It will no longer be one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. It's time to wake up!
My point with buying groceries "that I might" use them to make a dinner with, and having already used them to cook that dinner, or it is possible to be in process of cooking that dinner in the present tense even as I speak the words "I went out to buy groceries this morning that I might have the ingredients to make this dinner that I'm cooking right now".......it's about tense. You're limiting "might become" to a future tense, when it doesn't have to be. Handling those words too rigidly is the best way I can say it. Human language is limited, but we must not forget they are conveying SPIRITUAL truths. I'm not knowledgeable about biblical grammar, and have forgotten a lot of even English grammar....others have more facility with the grammar than me. But it seems to me we "already became" partakers of His holiness when we came to faith in Christ, and then we also "are becoming" partakers of His holiness, as well as that it can apply to the future where we still have some perfecting/growing to do.
We have been sanctified and made holy by the blood and spirit of Christ. Scripture says this. But then it becomes a matter of growing into and perfecting and manifesting what we have already received. Bible says "all things have been put under the feet of Christ, but we do not yet see all things put under". The "yes, but not yet" of what Jesus has already accomplished. That is why scripture can use the past tense and isn't lying where it says we have been sanctified and glorified. It's a mistake to deny the foundation, what Jesus has already accomplished. If He had not already accomplished everything we would have nothing to grow up into. The bible says we are to "grow up into the Head". Growth is a process.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
the problem is he thinks it happens right now. immediately.
the rest of us know it is not immediate. Gods starts to work in us, and through his power we grow, and will continue to grow. until we are ressurected. when our justification and sanctification turns to glorification
Good point. And He can make carnal people holy. But that's what He can do. We can't do it...and we don't naturally evolve into something greater than what we are.Chuckling here. Of course you know the verse that came to mind! The one that says God can make worshipers from these rocks.
Most believers don't believe that in Christ is no sin. Why not? They don't know where that is, and how to get there, since they are in a normal natural environment. They haven't yet experienced Christ, not the power of the gospel, nor the cross. They have not experienced the holy environment of the kingdom of God.
But by faith, we can know those things are. We can believe in their existence. We can look at a picture of an igloo while we sit on a beach...or...more apropos...we can look at a picture of Hawaii while we shiver in an igloo.
Reading the bible is supposed to be like that. But only if it read as it is written using faith..
I think most believers have entirely underestimated what the calling in Christ entails.
It is found in us though.....Christ IN us, the hope of glory. It springs from the fountain of the deep that has been placed in us (fountain of the deep broken up, so yes there is a breaking). Which spouts upward to meet the Lord raining down (or resting upon the person like an anointing) His spirit from above. It's not a case of one or the other, it's both.
Psa 85:9-13
Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land.
Love and faithfulness meet together; righteousness and peace kiss each other.
Faithfulness springs forth from the earth, and righteousness looks down from heaven.
The LORD will indeed give what is good, and our land will yield its harvest.
Righteousness goes before him and prepares the way for his steps.
“As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man”:
Gen 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, AND the windows of heaven were opened.
Psa 42:7
Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.
Spoken like a true evolutionist. If only there were missing link people who could attest that after so many decades people were testifying of walking in a miraculous place where there is no sin!
But no such missing link exists. It's as futile as looking for a missing link between an ape and a human. But people still hope to find it one day...
(and that's not the hope of glory spoken of about the "Christ in you" given as sample to spur us to faith and seeking God)
Then there are those who "reckon" themselves to be somewhere they are not. They look at the picture of Hawaii while sitting in the igloo...and experience a "warming" sensation. And that seems enough for them.
But there are a few who read the bible and understand its implications...and seek God's face about it. When the faith in God's ability is full...God then translates that person of faith to be where He is...just like He did with Enoch...although being in Christ means our bodies remain here. This is according to the gospel of the kingdom.
Last edited:
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes,
I have been sanctified "set apart" as I have been adopted out of the world, and into the body of Christ. As paul says, I have been washed, I have been justified, I have been sanctified..
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
and this sanctification is eternal. a completed action. Concerning the moving from the old covenant to the new, The author of Hebrews states this
Hebrews 10: 9-10
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Stating it is by Christ's one sacrifice, that we have been sanctified once and for all (its a completed action) (sanctify being in the perfect tense)
yet scripture speaks of a different type of sanctification. One that is ongoing, One that continues over time, we call that Christian growth.
the same author that says by Christs one sacrifice we were sanctified, a completed act. says that we are also being sanctified.
Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Notice here, Unlike in Hebrews 10 where sanctified is perfect tense. a completed action. Here the author uses the present tense. Present tense denotes the verb is ongoing, not that it was yet completed
we see again the same author use the same argument in chapter ten. where he states as we were sanctified (perfect tense) that sanctification is the act Of God perfecting forever (perfect tense) those who are again being sanctified (present tesne)
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
so we see by one author
we are sanctified (set apart) as a completed action. he equals this with the term perfection. another term would be justified
He also says we are being sanctified (present tense) and both the perfected sanctification and ongoing sanctification
this is where we need some concept of the rules of language to really understand what is being said, but not only this, to test the spirit of what others say to determine if what they say is truth or not.
you grow and get closer being sanctified is set apart made Holy its a progress in your relationshipCan you explain how impurity becomes more pure over time?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
so there is no christian growth in your idea?
Romans 5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
is this not christian growth? Do you really think a person who is born again IMMEDIATELY is a mature believer in Christ, who no longer struggles. Who loves perfectly 24/7 who is no longer ever tempted from sin. etc etc?
Similar threads
