23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[WPM]

Telos is always literal. Christ's physical kingdom literally ends after the thousand years are expired.

Saying His kingdom on earth is His eternal reign, says His everlasting kingdom literally ends.

And so, let's have the conclusion of the matter. Did Jesus Christ literally finish His work on the cross and physically die. Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh to do so?

I'm only curious to see if you answer. I confess yes to both.

Stop presenting your questionable opinions and give us hard Scripture. Where is telos attributed to your imaginary future millennium in Scripture? I will not hold my breath.

The unindoctrinated Bible student should have no difficulty in understanding the meaning and weightiness of the phrases/events “the beginning” and “the end.” That is because they actually mean what they say. These expressions are often used on their own throughout Scripture because the Holy Spirit evidently expects the believer to take God literally at His Word and accept these plain and obvious statements at face value.

Whether one is reading a book, watching a movie, or observing a ball-game, the concept of “the beginning” and “the end” of something is too obvious to even debate or explain. Hello! It is as clear as clear can be. We are talking about basic 101 comprehension.

 

[WPM]

No, phase three is more simple:

Did Jesus Christ literally finish His work on the cross and physically die. Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh to do so? I say yes to both.

I just want to establish a basic groundwork to argue from here.

Yes and yes.

Now for you:

1. When did/does Christ rise to the right hand of majesty on high?
2. Where does Scripture locate that throne – in heaven or on earth?
3. If Christ is God, if He is genuinely sovereign and if He is reigning now, what enemy do you suppose He not ruling over?
4. When was/is “all power … in heaven and in earth” given unto Jesus (Matthew 28:18)?
5. How much more power than “all power... in heaven and in earth.” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?
6. Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
7. When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?
8. When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?
9. When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
10. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
11. When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)?
12. Do you believe that Christ currently has “the keys (or authority) of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18)?

 

[Always Believing]

Yes and yes.

Good. Just want to know what I am dealing with here.

1. If Christ is God, if He is genuinely sovereign and if He is reigning now, what enemy do you suppose He not ruling over?

The whole world that still lies in iniquity, including antichrists that seduce people from believing Him.

Having all power does not mean exercising it by force. That will not be until His millennial reign in Person with His saints.

1. When was/does Christ become ruler over the kings of the earth, now only or also in the future (Revelation 1:5)?

Saying His kings and priests, are now kings of the earth is carnal minded error.

You may be a king and priest to God in your own household now, but believe me, you are no king of the earth. I wouldn't even let you be be servant in my house. Much less a king.

If you think you are a king of the earth now, then walk down Hollywood Blvd at, and show it.

Until you prove you are a king of the earth, your talk is just idle fantasy from a keyboard at home.

1. When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?

All those that are willingly subdued now, and then all those on earth forcibly subdued at His second coming. He came first as the Lamb of God, and He comes next as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

1. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.”

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Classic twisting of Scripture. Till he hath...

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Must have got the wrong Scripture.

1. How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning now over His enemies now?

Because His enemies are still sovereignly reigning over themselves now.

His reigning now is only used as an open door into His everlasting kingdom, that the devil cannot stop. His reigning will be over all nations with rod of iron, whether they like it or not.

1. 
   
2. When did/does Christ become the ruler of God’s creation” (Revelation 3:14)?

When He created all things good. His rule was rebelled against when Adam wilfully sinned, and God was no longer His ruler.

It's called being created in the free will image of God. which is good, unless that free will is used to sin against God, and we think to be gods in our own right.

It's the same with false prophets. They think the power of the will alone makes their prophetic words meaningful and true. They're not.

1. Do you believe that Christ currently has “the keys (or authority) of hell and of death” (Revelation 1:18)?

And so does all them that believe and obey Him. Those that forsake Him, but turn to their own false ministry, use those keys for evil rather than good.

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Amillennialism is part of that smoke.

 

[Truth7t7]

Having all power does not mean exercising it by force. That will not be until His millennial reign in Person with His saints.

Sound The Alarm!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[WPM]

Good. Just want to know what I am dealing with here.


The whole world that still lies in iniquity, including antichrists that seduce people from believing Him.

Having all power does not mean exercising it by force. That will not be until His millennial reign in Person with His saints.



Saying His kings and priests, are now kings of the earth is carnal minded error.

You may be a king and priest to God in your own household now, but believe me, you are no king of the earth. I wouldn't even let you be be servant in my house. Much less a king.

If you think you are a king of the earth now, then walk down Hollywood Blvd at, and show it.

Until you prove you are a king of the earth, your talk is just idle fantasy from a keyboard at home.


All those that are willingly subdued now, and then all those on earth forcibly subdued at His second coming. He came first as the Lamb of God, and He comes next as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.


For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Classic twisting of Scripture. Till he hath...

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Must have got the wrong Scripture.


Because His enemies are still sovereignly reigning over themselves now.

His reigning now is only used as an open door into His everlasting kingdom, that the devil cannot stop. His reigning will be over all nations with rod of iron, whether they like it or not.

When He created all things good. His rule was rebelled against when Adam wilfully sinned, and God was no longer His ruler.

It's called being created in the free will image of God. which is good, unless that free will is used to sin against God, and we think to be gods in our own right.

It's the same with false prophets. They think the power of the will alone makes their prophetic words meaningful and true. They're not.


And so does all them that believe and obey Him. Those that forsake Him, but turn to their own false ministry, use those keys for evil rather than good.

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Amillennialism is part of that smoke.

I will resubmit the questions you skirted around:

1. When did/does Christ rise to the right hand of majesty on high?
2. Where does Scripture locate that throne – in heaven or on earth?
3. When was/is “all power … in heaven and in earth” given unto Jesus (Matthew 28:18)?
4. How much more power than “all power... in heaven and in earth.” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?
5. Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
6. When are “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him,” (1 Peter 3:22 says) now or in the age to come?

 

[Timtofly]

The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." There is no reason to understand it other than a period that applies to one complete, sequential block of time. After all, if God fulfilled the first 70 here (in Daniel 9:21-24) literally and harmoniously in an undivided manner, why would he not do the same with the second 70 (in Daniel 9:25-26)?

A literal straightforward reading of Daniel 9 would assume the 70th week to follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not then it cannot properly be called the 70th week! It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week, especially when no hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. What is more, there is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

I never said the 70th did not follow after the 69th. But there was already a break between the 7th week and the 8th week. That is why the 62 and 7 are listed as seperated. So there was already a break in the 70 weeks, and your claim they were continuous is not based on Scripture but your own human understanding.

 

[WPM]

I never said the 70th did not follow after the 69th. But there was already a break between the 7th week and the 8th week. That is why the 62 and 7 are listed as seperated. So there was already a break in the 70 weeks, and your claim they were continuous is not based on Scripture but your own human understanding.

Really? How long of a break is there "between the 7th week and the 8th week"?

 

[Truth7t7]

The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." There is no reason to understand it other than a period that applies to one complete, sequential block of time. After all, if God fulfilled the first 70 here (in Daniel 9:21-24) literally and harmoniously in an undivided manner, why would he not do the same with the second 70 (in Daniel 9:25-26)?

A literal straightforward reading of Daniel 9 would assume the 70th week to follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not then it cannot properly be called the 70th week! It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week, especially when no hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. What is more, there is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

Statement Retracted

 

[robert derrick]

As I said, if you'd stuck to preterism, and not moved into amillennialism, then you would have a point. I don't pick fights just to argue and stir up trouble.


Telos ends the debate. By saying Christ's Millennium is only His current spiritual reign and kingdom on earth, you preach His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

I love it when it's kept simple like this. What you are saying is that kingdom of Christ spoken of in Rev 20, is bound to a thousand years, and when that thousand years expires, then so must that kingdom on earth being spoken of: it is a kingdom of Christ on earth bound and limited to a thousand years on earth.

To say that kingdom is His everlasting kingdom begun at His resurrection, is to therefore make His eternal reign and kingdom bound to a thousand years on earth, and must expire at the end thereof. Or, prophecy of Rev 20 is false.

And the reliance upon the one word telos, forbids making all of Rev 20's prophesied thousand year kingdom, just a simile and symbol. Otherwise now, the meaning of words is changed from all it's ancient usage, as well as by God in His written word. The false amil prophecy must now add telos to their library of symbology, as well as a thousand years, so that the thousand years of that kingdom never 'really' expires.

The only way for Rev 20 prophecy, and plain meaning of words to be true, is for there to be a certain kingdom of Christ on earth, that expires at the end of it's thousand year boundary. It must therefore be the prophesied physical kingdom and rule over all nations, by the Lord and His saints in their resurrected immortal bodies.

It's a perfect simple proof, based upon plain words of Scripture.

The obvious is now proven true, and the rejection of the obvious is not proven false. The Symbol Man's Bible of amils is false, along now with the hybrid New Meaning of Words Dictionary, that they must use for support of their false amil prophecy.

We always know a false teaching by complicated volumes of explanation, that become necessary to reject plain words of God, and try to make Him say something else. Especially when writing a whole new bible and dictionary for it.

 

[covenantee]

The very same 2,000+ year gap is used by reformed preterist eschatology

They claim that the AOD and great tribulation started in 70AD and will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting, the ole rubber ruler trick

"will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting"

Do you have any verbatim quotes or links to support that?

 

[WPM]

"will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting"

Do you have any verbatim quotes or links to support that?

He doesn't have a clue what he opposes. It is pointless refuting.

 

[Truth7t7]

He doesn't have a clue what he opposes. It is pointless refuting.

Statement Retracted

 

[covenantee]

The very same 2,000+ year gap is used by reformed preterist eschatology

They claim that the AOD and great tribulation started in 70AD and will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting, the ole rubber ruler trick

Reformed eschatology originated in the Reformation, hence its name.

Preterism originated in the counter-Reformation of the apostate papacy almost a century after the Reformation began, in an attempt to disprove it.

So preterism, which sought to disprove the Reformation, could not possibly be part of Reformed eschatology, which originated in the Reformation.

So your expression "reformed preterist eschatology" is risible nonsense.

 

[Truth7t7]

Reformed eschatology originated in the Reformation, hence its name.

Preterism originated in the counter-Reformation of the apostate papacy almost a century after the Reformation began, in an attempt to disprove it.

So preterism, which sought to disprove the Reformation, could not possibly be part of Reformed eschatology, which originated in the Reformation.

So your expression "reformed preterist eschatology" is risible nonsense.

Please explain "When Has or When Will" Daniel's AOD take place Matthew 24:15?

Please explain "When Has or When Will" The Great Tribulation take place Matthew 24:21?

 

[covenantee]

Please explain "When Has or When Will" Daniel's AOD take place Matthew 24:15?

Please explain "When Has or When Will" The Great Tribulation take place Matthew 24:21?

First provide some verbatim quotes or links to support your claim:
"will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting".

Then I'll answer your questions.

 

[Truth7t7]

First provide some verbatim quotes or links to support your claim:
"will continue until the second coming 2,000+ years and counting".

Then I'll answer your questions.

I have retracted my statement in posts # 788 & 792

Please explain "When Has or When Will" Daniel's AOD take place Matthew 24:15?

Please explain "When Has or When Will" The Great Tribulation take place Matthew 24:21?

 

[covenantee]

I have retracted my statement in posts # 788 & 792

Please explain "When Has or When Will" Daniel's AOD take place Matthew 24:15?

Please explain "When Has or When Will" The Great Tribulation take place Matthew 24:21?

The AOD is identified in Luke 21:20, which is contained in Luke's parallel account of the Olivet discourse. It is the Roman armies in 70 AD.

The great tribulation of the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD.

 

[Truth7t7]

The AOD is identified in Luke 21:20, which is contained in Luke's parallel account of the Olivet discourse. It is the Roman armies in 70 AD.

The great tribulation of the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD.

You believe and teach a majority of the Olivet discourse has taken place, namely Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, your (Partial Preterist) in your eschatology, (Full Preterist) deny a future second coming

When I state "Reformed Preterist Eschatology" my statement is correct, as you believe and teach that Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation occurred in 70AD, it's that simple

Yes your teachings follow the Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis De Alcazar as seen below (Fact)

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

preterism
prĕt′ə-rĭz″əm

noun​

1. A Christian doctrine holding that at least some of the apocalyptic prophecies in the Bible describe events that occurred within the first century after Jesus's death, rather than events that lie still in the future.
2. A Christian eschatological view that interprets Biblical prophecies as events which have already happened in the first century A.D.

Wikipedia: Preterism

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is a prefix denoting that something is 'past' or 'beyond'.[1] Adherents of preterism are known as preterists. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet Discourse had come to pass by AD 70.

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi, published during the Counter-Reformation.[2] 

 

[Timtofly]

1. Give us Scripture that teaches that a future millennium will be without sin and death?
2. Give us Scripture that teaches that a future millennium will be without deception and corruption?
3. Give us Scripture that teaches that Israel will be saved and be front and center during a future millennium?
4. Give us Scripture that teaches that Jesus as king will rule over the other nations throughout a future millennium?
5. Give us Scripture that teaches that the beginning of the millennium will see the end of the fulness of the Gentiles age?

I will not hold my breath. You seem to make it up as you go.

Daniel 9:24 will be in full effect during the Millennium.

Not just your select elect.

Jesus as Prince will fulfill the Prince to come part of Daniel 9. Jesus will sit on His glorious throne, per Matthew 25:31.

 

[covenantee]

You believe and teach a majority of the Olivet discourse has taken place, namely Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, your (Partial Preterist) in your eschatology, (Full Preterist) deny a future second coming

When I state "Reformed Preterist Eschatology" my statement is correct, as you believe and teach that Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation occurred in 70AD, it's that simple

Yes your teachings follow the Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis De Alcazar as seen below

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

preterism
prĕt′ə-rĭz″əm

noun​

1. A Christian doctrine holding that at least some of the apocalyptic prophecies in the Bible describe events that occurred within the first century after Jesus's death, rather than events that lie still in the future.
2. A Christian eschatological view that interprets Biblical prophecies as events which have already happened in the first century A.D.

Wikipedia: Preterism

The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is a prefix denoting that something is 'past' or 'beyond'.[1] Adherents of preterism are known as preterists. Preterism teaches that either all (full preterism) or a majority (partial preterism) of the Olivet Discourse had come to pass by AD 70.

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi, published during the Counter-Reformation.[2] 

Second coming descriptions begin in Matthew 24:29.

There's no "denying a future second coming" except in your imagination.