The First Condition of salvation

[robert derrick]

Being saved is the point where regeneration has occurred by the Holy Spirit indwelling a person after they’ve come to faith and repentance, and they are spiritually reborn, their sins are forgiven, and their new destination is heaven, instead of hell.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

BTW as always, Paul’s reference to works is works of the law of Moses.

Deu 6:22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes:

Deu 6:23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

"BTW as always, Paul’s reference to works is works of the law of Moses."

Since Scripture never says 'of Moses', but only by works of the law, then we must include any works of any law: That of Moses and of Christ.

The point being that we are not saved by doing the works of the law of God. It is good to do them, but without faith doing the works is vain toward salvation and justification with God.

Salvation and justification are by grace, but salvation comes with repentance of dead works through faith, and justification comes with doing good works of faith: it is only by grace that we can ever believe God and do His will, which are the first things that accompany His salvation: repentance and faith toward God.

Things accompanying salvation are the things that salvation of God has with it, not after it, nor only following it.

Salvation alone without works of faith is as justification alone without works of faith: Through dead faith alone, not the salvation of God by grace through His faith with His works.

 

[robert derrick]

Being saved is the point where regeneration has occurred by the Holy Spirit indwelling a person after they’ve come to faith and repentance, and they are spiritually reborn, their sins are forgiven, and their new destination is heaven, instead of hell.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

BTW as always, Paul’s reference to works is works of the law of Moses.

Deu 6:22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes:

Deu 6:23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4)

And so, His righteousness and His salvation become ours, when we continue in His faith and doctrine, to keep His commandments and do His will?

 

[Wrangler]

Interesting Wrangler, I consider that the last, as they were judged, obviously one would have to know the will of God before they can do it.

Those who never turn to God are prejudged.

 

[robert derrick]

Gods love is unconditional - but salvation has conditions: faith, repentance, receiving Jesus, then has post salvation requirements of continuing in the same faith and repentance (turning away from a sinful life) and taking up our cross daily, and following Jesus.

After salvation, some lose their faith, some become reprobates, and no longer meet the salvational requirements, and don’t remain in Jesus.

After salvation, some lose their faith, some become reprobates, and no longer meet the salvational requirements, and don’t remain in Jesus.

Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. (1 Tim 5)

 

[robert derrick]

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev 2)

Repentance is the first condition with good works of faith: falling from grace is by seeking justification by works of the law without faith, and falling away from the faith is by ceasing to do the first works of faith: repentance and loving out neighbors as ourselves.

Removed candlestick out of his place is his name blotted out of the book of the Lamb and of Life.

 

[robert derrick]

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation. (Psalms 106)

The blessing of the grace of God is His favour of salvation: to them that do His righteousness at all times.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2)

Doing His righteousness is the necessary thing that accompanies His salvation. Not doing righteousness, not born of Him, not saved.

Being born of God is conditioned on doing His righteousness, and being saved is conditioned on being born of God, and so being saved is conditioned on doing His righteousness.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3)

Doing His righteousness is the 1st thing of being righteous as He. Not doing, not right with God, not righteous as He, not walking with Him.

There is no 'salvation' apart from the first things of salvation. Isolated salvation like faith alone is dead.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. (1 John 3)

Not doing, not of God, not saved.

Unless,
1. God's blessing of grace and favor of salvation is with them that do not His righteousness: the children of the devil.
2. He is righteous as the Lord, who does not His righteousness: imputed righteousness by faith is without doing it.
3. Being born of God and being children of God is without doing His righteousness: Salvation is apart from and not conditioned on being born of God.

 

[Invisibilis]

"I pray that you will have the faith to penetrate deeper into your own truth, to get a 'knowing' of unconditionality. Then you will notice that the only true power we have is to become unconditional. God is Everything. We have to let go of everything for Everything"

New age 'truth seeking' in the name of God: How can God be 'everything', if we are seeking our own truth, which certainly is not His truth.

"God is Everything. We have to let go of everything for Everything"

Quote the Scripture: "God is everything" Because God certainly is not everything: God is not the world, nor is He the devil; nor is God in everything, not in the sins of darkness, nor in the hearts of unbelievers, nor in the trees.

The deeper we dig into our own truth, the deeper hole we dig for ourselves: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15)

Truly 'unconditional' would involve no digging at all, because all we would find is how we have nothing to do with anything about God and salvation and faith, which is a void salvation devoid of truth, righteousness, and fulfilling the royal law.

This kind of 'letting go', is letting go of conviction and guilt without repentance.

Unless,
1. There is nothing accompanying salvation.
2. Letting go of everything includes casting off works of darkness in repentance from dead works.

Please note that in the usual content of words with a capital letter, such as truth vs Truth, truths points to worldly facts, and Truth points to the Greater Reality. Same with everything vs Everything.

God is Everything True and Real, where everything is related to all that this world has to offer.

 

[Invisibilis]

The piercing of the Word of God is not us 'diggin deeper into our own truth' but God rooting out our own lies and foolishness within: all the inner sins of darkness: lies of self-deception, hypocrisies, envy, malice, hatred...

And putting off these can only occur after mortifying the deeds of the body; otherwise we are only trying to control our temper without control of our body:

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (Col 3)

Do you not have memory. If you did not, then if God brought to your attention of something not in your memory, you would not believe it. After all, all our beliefs are based on what we claim/agree to be true.

All vices are fear-based. Faith in God allows us to face our fears, even in the past, even to the greatest depths of denial. We all know the truth/Truth of our denials. After all, one must know what they are denying before they can deny it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Those who never turn to God are prejudged.

Jehovah is a just God, and He selected a just King who will do the judging, I guess we will have to wait and see the actual judgment to see how it will play out. I see it like you almost, I wouldn't use the term prejudged, but do believe that those who never seek Him will be judged unfavorably. That definitely goes along with scripture. One thing we can be certain of, that not one righteous one will be overlooked.

 

[robert derrick]

Please note that in the usual content of words with a capital letter, such as truth vs Truth, truths points to worldly facts, and Truth points to the Greater Reality. Same with everything vs Everything.

God is Everything True and Real, where everything is related to all that this world has to offer.

Ok, then in Scriptural terms, seeking the Truth of God and being guided into all Truth is one things,and seeking one's own faith, or truth, with God is another.

The first being the Truth that all must believe and abide in, the 2nd being the personal rules and practices of one's own life in their walk with Jesus, that does not conflict with His commandments.

I agree then.

 

[robert derrick]

Do you not have memory. If you did not, then if God brought to your attention of something not in your memory, you would not believe it. After all, all our beliefs are based on what we claim/agree to be true.

All vices are fear-based. Faith in God allows us to face our fears, even in the past, even to the greatest depths of denial. We all know the truth/Truth of our denials. After all, one must know what they are denying before they can deny it.

To this I don't agree.

Revelation is not memory, it is new enlightened understanding of the truth of God, which is Scripture. In this case, the old memories of what we thought are challenged to change in light of new knowledge of the Lord.

And so, our 'beliefs' become more in line with His Word.

And self-denial is not always known. Many times we can be in denial, without ever knowing it, or understanding it as such, or at the least not admitting it. Afterall, being in denial by definition is a refusal to understand and know something true, that is contrary to what we think or believe.

In any case, you didn't respond to the point I made: true purification inwardly from the dark things of the mind and heart, such as anger, envy, pride, etc... does not come before repentance of the outward dead works, if anything they come afterward.

Salvation that does not come at the first with the first things of salvation: repentance from dead works, is no salvation at all, but only of the mind, even as faith without works is dead, being only of the mind.

 

[robert derrick]

One main error of unconditional salvation is that they think 'doing our part' means doing our own part, or our own works.

Our part is doing our repentance and His good works by faith with help of God: Grace is the work of God that we cannot do: forgiveness, cleansing, washing, saving, justifying, redemption by the blood.

Grace is also the help of God we need in everything we do for Him by faith: Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4)

We are not saved nor justified by our works, but by grace through faith, and we are saved and justified with the works of faith by grace.

Isolating salvation without the things that accompany it is according to a dead faith without works accompanying.

There is no such thing as inward repentance only, which would be 'spiritual' repentance. We cannot 'repent' of our spirit, but rather we repent of dead works through His faith, and God changes our spirit to have power to do good, rather than evil.

Partakers of the divine nature participate in their salvation by doing His will according to His Word with help of grace:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4)

He would not save Himself and come down from the cross, that He might help us save ourselves through His cross, that we bear.

Can any be saved without taking up the cross to bear? Or is that also inwardly only?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

neverending sh*t

Oh my…

 

[robert derrick]

how i hate these type salvation-nazis-threads

my dear owner had to bear my neverending sh*t
which is this awful ape body i m as soul trapped into

and you guys babble about irrelevant side issues

thinking christ is concerned with those

Spoken like a true faith alone savior.

Lively mouth but dead soul.

 

[Wrangler]

Can any be saved without taking up the cross to bear? Or is that also inwardly only?

It all comes down to EGO on both sides of the argument.

1. +Work: risks boasting our work is how salvation was obtained.
2. Faith Alone: risks doing the least we can to further the kingdom of God.

In my line of work, it’s all about risk mitigation. ALL scenarios inherently have 2 types of risk; type 1 and type 2. Therefore, I tend to design systems deliberately biased against the type of risk I am more eager to avoid - knowing full well it makes me more susceptible to take on the less severe risk.

What risk are you more willing to embrace, 1 or 2?

 

[robert derrick]

It all comes down to EGO on both sides of the argument.

1. +Work: risks boasting our work is how salvation was obtained.

James is not teaching risk of boasting.

1. Faith Alone: risks doing the least we can to further the kingdom of God.

Faith alone does nothing.

In my line of work, it’s all about risk mitigation.

fine, but God is not into risk management. He says without works, faith alone cannot justify a man.

The only risk is being a man-pleaser and possible persecution for doing the works of faith to live godly and minister the word.

What risk are you more willing to embrace, 1 or 2?

Neither. I won't risk falling from grace by neglecting to do the truth.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The only ones 'riskiing' boasting of works, are boasters in the their own works. Those doing well by faith from a pure heart, don't even think about it, but just do it and move on.

Risk management is a carnal application to men's business, not a spiritual truth of the Father's business. Mixing the two in doctrine, is when man corrupts God's kingdom.

 

[Wrangler]

James is not teaching risk of boasting.

I never claimed James was teaching risk. I said those who advocate work - like you - risk boasting.

Neither. I won't risk falling from grace by neglecting to do the truth.

Truth is known, not done.

Risk management is a carnal application to men's business, not a spiritual truth of the Father's business.

What a pretentious way to avoid the point. You seem to put yourself beyond temptation. Carry on.

 

[robert derrick]

I never claimed James was teaching risk. I said those who advocate work - like you - risk boasting.

James was a man with like passions as all men, and I am a brother in Christ as James. We both teach the same thing with the same Spirit from the heart.

My only boast is in Christ, because it is by Him only that I can do His works of faith.

You have plenty to boast about from your own faith, because it's not Jesus' faith, but your own.

Truth is known, not done.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I've often said how JW's are gostics at heart, who only thrill themselves with their own knowledge. And that all false teachers contradict Scripture from time to time, because they really don't care what God says, but only what they like to think.

What a pretentious way to avoid the point. You seem to put yourself beyond temptation.

I put myself beyond sinning against God by temptation, by adding to my faith those things necessary to do so:

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

...even as Jesus who was not put beyond temptation like God on the throne,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

...until He died on the cross and went back to the Father to sit by Him, where He was before He came down from heaven to be a man on earth.

What is beyond you is even knowing the truth, much less doing it, because you reject Jesus Christ as both Lord and God.

Jesus Christ is the truth, as well as the way and the life. Since you don't know Jesus, you don't know the truth, nor the way, nor the life.

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through knowing God, and Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

You're just someone who has created his own christ from his own imagination, and are out here playing games with the Bible. Now, if you want to teach your own JW bible, then at least you'd be honest about what you are doing.

And I wouldn't mind it at all, and we could see the difference between your word and gospel, and that of Jesus Christ and His apostles. It would be much more honest and better than making a pretense of teaching from the Bible, when actually teaching from your own theological book.

 

[Wrangler]

Truth is known, not done.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

What nonsense is this? Is this from Scripture? Why not cite the verse so I can read it in 21st American rather than whatevereth crazieth translationoust thouest presenteth?

 

[robert derrick]

Truth is known, not done.


What nonsense is this? Is this from Scripture? Why not cite the verse so I can read it in 21st American rather than whatevereth crazieth translationoust thouest presenteth?

No, you're done.